What would be the concensus as the best wood glue to use? I am a novice and have tried gorilla glue but find that it expands tremendously when used. Could I get some brands from some of you seasoned veterans out there? Thanks in advance…
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Replies
Titebond yellow glue works just fine. Use Titebond II if there is any chnace it would be subject to moisture.
I make period furniture and am almost ready to try hide glue, but that's another subject.
Stephen J. Gaal
it all depends on the APPLICATION..out side? oily wood? gap filling? reversable? short assembly time?..long time open?..There are as many situations as there are glues..general puopose in the shop for me is Titebond, and Hide. Various Ca's in different viscosities...are a time saver. A few epoxies, and some polyurethane type adhesives..(I did not say Gorilla glue).
If you post a situation you will be swamped with suggestions..most are right on the money..these guys know their glue <G>
Depends on the application!
General gluing in porous woods probably one of the yellow glues like Titebond I or Titebond II. I find those somewhat lacking in high humidity climates though (glue creep and gummy residue).
Epoxy for oily exotic woods.
Some people like hide glue for dowel, tenon, etc gluing. Heat will loosen it up later.
I've found the pre-mixed hide glue by Franklin to be pretty good for some things. Buy it in small quantities though cause shelf life ain't to long.
Super glue for some special applications.
The only thing I use poly glue for now is to glue bricks together around the wife's flower beds.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
Thanks to all of the above for their reponses on wood glue. I take it that Gorilla glue is not a real seller in the Woodworking community...
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzzsaw,
Plain old white glue is a good all around glue. Its bond is, in most cases, stronger than the itself. The shelf life is quite long, unlike yellow glue. Its open time is usually sufficient, for all but the most complicated assemblies. It does have some drawbacks, it is somewhat prone to creep in stressed joints as are all PVA glues and it has a lower working temperature range than yellow glue.
For myself, I use hide glue, both liquid and hot , almost exclusively. With few exceptions, hide glue is an ideal adhesive, but it takes some getting use to.
Rob Millard
Rob, how ya been?...I sincerely hope that you are not confusing your glues...might I qoute you?
Plain old white glue is a good all around glue. Its bond is, in most cases, stronger than the itself. The shelf life is quite long, unlike yellow glue. Its open time is usually sufficient, for all but the most complicated assemblies. It does have some drawbacks, it is somewhat prone to creep in stressed joints as are all PVA glues and it has a lower working temperature range than yellow glue.
The misleading part is where you state "as are all PVA Glues"
We all know white glue and yellow are not the same..PolyVinyl Acetate Vs. Aliphatic Resin..WINK.
Let's see who comes out swinging...lol
Sphere:
My understanding is that aliphatic resins are just a type of PVA.
Hmmm..aliphatics cross link, pva 's do not.
from
http://www.titebond.com/GlossaryTB.asp?glcat=16
Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) glueAny glue consisting chiefly of polyvinyl acetate polymer. This category includes both traditional white glues and yellow aliphatic resin glues. Although PVA glues can vary in strength, flexibility, water resistance, heat resistance and sandability, they are generally non-toxic. All PVA glues are prone to "creep" or slowly stretch under long term loads, and are not recommended for structural applications.
Hey , I know ...I was just goofin with Rob to see what came outta the woodworks..the similarities are so close it comes down to semantics..there is a difference tho' keep digging. acetic acid is present in pva..and for some photo preservation work..that acid is not welcome..that is one drawback of useing the wrong adhesive in some (rare) instances..
http://www.uflib.ufl.edu/preserve/binding/glossary.htm#p
PVA (Polyvinyl acetate)
An emulsion adhesive; a flexible adhesive that does not cross-link and is considered permanent. Results in a very strong bond.
Edited 1/7/2004 4:45:27 PM ET by SPHERE
> Polyvinyl acetate (PVA) glue
> .....are not recommended for structural applications.
That begs the question .... what glue *would* be recommended for structural applications?
I have a project, a stair with laminated curved stringers on which I was planning on using the Weldwood/DAP powdered resin glue. I'm anticipating using a very light wood, ash, for the structural members. My experience with this resin glue is that it reveals a rather prominent glue line which, being rather dark, would most likely be less than attractive with this particular material. I'm not too fond of using epoxy glues due to the mess and clean-up hassles but - that might end up being the best choice?
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
This PL Premium Poly adhesive touted by the Dr. seems to be the ticket if it is as claimed.
I will have to check it out.
As for stair building, for me, anything that must support a warm body needs to be mechanically reinforced. I understand glue bonds, but it is at the end of a chain where every link must be present for that bond to work.
Just the paranoid-avoid-accidents-n-lawsuits side of me...
>>That begs the question .... what glue *would* be recommended for structural applications?
The first question is what is meant by "stuctural applications"? If we are talking about furniture as opposed to buildings, PVA's are more than adequate. The creep is a factor of shear stress. Well constructed wood joints in furniture other than chairs would rarely have a shear failure. In fact, the slight "give" in PVA's allows a cross grain joint like a mortise and tenon to slightly "work" without failing. A rigid adhesive like hot hide glue will fail faster in this type of application.
The simple answer in most cases yellow PVA will be more than strong enough. Use the white PVA when you need extra assembly time. Both will give you similar performance and the final joint will be stronger than the wood itself.
The only place I do not use PVA is on panel glue ups. The negative characteristic of PVA's is their propensity for creep. In panel glue ups, this can allow the glue in the glueline to seem to rise above the surface of the wood after a seasonal cycle of expansion/contraction. We spent hours with our adhesives supplier techical folks trying to deal with this. No reformulations fully eliminated it. For panels, we went to urea formaldehyde (DAP/Plastic Resin) adhesives which have no creep.
Howie -
At the risk of evoking the topic police -
This is indeed a structural project. The stairs in question involve three short runs with two landings. The stair essentially wraps around and against three walls of the entry.
Two thirds of the stair will be open below - the outside stringer will be a curved laminated member supporting the outter edge with the inner edge supported at the wall. I haven't thorougly engineered the thing yet as for sizing the stringer, railing and so forth, but it's modeled on some existing stairs of similar, practically identical design so I'm pretty sure it's a feasable undertaking.
There are a couple of pitch changes in the stair run as it goes from the main floor to the second floor. Thus it will take a two step lamination process. First to template the stretchout of the stringer/beam and glue it up, then get it resawed to bend and laminate in plan. I've done a similar project, albeit on a much, much smaller scale, so I understand the technique. I'll need a glue with maximum open time and one with no creep whatsoever. If can get the resawing done in thin enough laminations, I hope also to avoid having to use heat or steam to do any bending - the working radius of the curves will be adjusted as much as possible to the minimum to which I can bend the pieces without steaming or heating. Otherwise I'll have to configure some sort of localized steaming process to bend each lamination in place to achieve the end result.
If you haven't already guessed by now, this is something of an experiment - some people simply have too much time on their hands, right (grin)
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Please post some pics when this project is completed. Ken
Don't hold your breath waiting (grin)
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Unibond 800 would be a good choice for this application and they have a lighter colored hardener available for use on woods such as maple. Tom
Douglasville, GA
>>We all know white glue and yellow are not the same..PolyVinyl Acetate Vs. Aliphatic Resin.
Take up the issue with William Tandy Young author of the "Glue Book" published by Taunton Press. To quote:
"The term PVA refers to a family of glues that includes the adhesives commonly known as white and yellow glues. ..... Once the first coonsumer-grade PVA--white glue--became popular, glue manufacturers introduced a second product--yellow glue. The new glue was superior in many respects to white glue and carried a fancy new name: aliphatic resin glue. ...... Consumers thought that white and yellow were fundamentally different adhesives, and that yellow glue was a revolutionary new product. In fact, yellow glue is simply a higher grade of white glue with some coloring added."
"The term aliphatic resin is a genereic chemical description that could apply to all sorts of materials. By definition, all PVA's are aliphitic resin, no matter what color they are."
In the shop I was involved with we used lots of PVA adhesive and delth directly with manufacturers of commercial grade adhesives. They told me that the reformulation of the white PVA was to increase the initial tack and to speed up the clamp time. Other than that, there is little performance difference.
I can agree with the 'family' part..where I dis-agree is the inclusion of an off gassing of acetic acid in the PVA That is the major difference to trades where it is undesireable to introduce acid..like acid-free paper for artwork and in bookbinding.
Yes aliphatic resin is a HUGE category..aliphatic hydrocarbons are in tons of things...really TONS.
My 'point' is very fine on this matter but it still is a point. So that being said..if one has acid and one does not..are they the SAME?...still comes down to NO..they are related. Thank you for researching this in greater depth..that was my intent.
Sphere,
To be honest when I first read your reply, I assumed I had been wrong to lump white and yellow glue into the same family. I had thought that they were of the same type, but I could not have proved it, since it was on reflection just an impression I had. I'm glad to see that even when I think I'm wrong, I'm not.
Rob Millard
I know just how you feel Rob. I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken. ;)Tom
Douglasville, GA
No, Rob..you are cool with it all..see my post to Howie..I can also make mistakes, but in this case..ACid or no acid..there is a difference. The new formulation that speeds clamping and tack time ALONE says that there IS a difference. Slight difference but hey,if it causes some folks to research for them selves, rather than blindly making asssumptions..we all benefit.
Elmers works vey well for me. I may try hide glue in the near future though.
Tom
Douglasville, GA
Plain old yellow carpenter's glue works for most basic applications. The type II glues have only one advantage over type I and that is that they are water resistant. I thought that was a benefit until I found that type II glues don't wash out of my clothes. (duh!) So I don't use type II unless the project requires it.
I don't have the disdain for polyurethane glues that other folks have. They are totally waterproof and have a much longer working time. I have wrecked glue-ups using yellow glue because the glue started grabbing so fast I could not get all the pieces aligned and the clamps tight before the glue stuck. So, I use polyurethanes when I need extra working time. Polyurethane glues certainly need to be clamped, or they will push the joints apart, and need to stay clamped overnight (no problem for my slow hobby pace). They will not come off your skin, but it's easy to clean the foamy squeeze out from the workpiece.
There are other glues that have the same benefits of polyurethane. I happen to like the poly's though.
Buzzsaw,
I'm not sure about "best" but in the past several months I have started using hide glue and I doubt that I'll every switch back to yellow glues for cabinet and furniture construction. I wish I had been introduced to hide glue qualities many years ago. One quick reason: I'm building myself a router table/cabinet and I laid-up some curly maple veneer I had resawn for draw fronts and 2 door panels. One of the panels didn't set right when I clamped it and I was able to take a hot iron to loosen the veneer and re-claim the entire piece. It came out beautifully. Never could I have done that with white or yellow glues. The time to lay up a complicated piece is tremendously increased using hide glue so you can relax while you are clamping the work.
Anyway, I'm not a convert, well, maybe a convert but not yet a zealot; I'm just excited about having learned to use something new that expands my capabilities as a ww'er. I guess the lesson for me as a fairly recent member of this forum is that there is a wealth of information and you need the courage to try some of the suggestions, as scary as they might be. For 35 years I've been a power tool addict and while I have a tremendous respect for these tools, I actually used a hand plane the other day for first time. Scared the crap out of me but I loved it! I actually accomplished what I needed to do that my power tools couldn't.
This forum has provided me incentive to stretch and I'm forever grateful.
Good luck.
Buzzsaw, no-one has mentioned one of the best water resistant glues ever, Weldwood Plastic Resin. It doesn't creep and is great when you have to glue two or more pieces to make a leg or post. It comes only in powder form so has a long shelf life. Its slow to set, best if left over night, so it has a very long open time. It also cleans up easily with a wet rag. Ken
http://www.dap.com/retail/retail_detail.cfm?subcatid=103&catid=28&prodhdrid=42
Just don't ever leave a can of Weldwood Plastic Resin powder open in the Houston area! A week later it will be hard as a rock!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Buzzsaw,
Wow, a lot of responses to your question. Here's another take. I started with titebond II for general apps, which is a great glue, but it can be a bit of a bear to completely clean up the spil out and it shows up in the finishing. I switched to a cabinet makers glue from Lee Valley. It bonds stong, and it takes a more color than titebond when stained. Most glues out there will do the job except in a couple of apps. I use urea formadahide glue for all bent laminations and veneer, since it has no flex. It is as hard as a rock when fully cured. I'll use epoxy for really weird glue ups, like metal to wood, and CA glue with an accelerator for setting mitered corners.
Take it easy.
I haven't been able to get epoxy to work worth a durn on brass. Quick setting seems to hold better than slow setting epoxy, but neither are very good.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
Thank you all for your insightful posts on wood glue.Regards,
Buzzsaw
Your velcome! Unfortunately, there are no easy answers. But, if you'll lurk around here a lot you'll pick up all kinds of good tips and ideas. This forum and the FWW magazine has rekindled my woodworkling fever that has waxed and waned over my many years.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
My all-time favorite glue is PL Premium Polyurethane construction adhesive. Of course Titebond is a given, but few even know about PL, let alone the incredible uses and properties that make it superior in certain applications. Main points are: incredible adhesion to the widest variety of substrates of any glue I've used, Expansion upon cure, and high cohesion (interior cellular core strength).
Here's an excerpt from a previous post:
" . . . but over ten years ago in my pro cabinetshop I discovered the absolute best (strongest), easiest and simplest method of plywood / melamine case construction for frame and frameless cabinets. It is using butt joints glued with PL Premium polyurethane construction adhesive (100% solids moisture-cure urethane). Before you laugh, I tested sample "T" joints using biscuits, dadoes, and drywall screws against the PL butt joint. This test was using thermoset melamine, as many of my high-end clients wanted more money put into the solid wood effects, FF's, exotic inlays and custom ground crown moulding, so they often opted for melamine interiors, though this glue is superior for ply as I'll explain later.
The 4 x 4 x 4 test pcs were placed under an arbor press at the angle for breaking, and a scale was underneath recording threshold breaking weight. The PL joint held strongest at around 47 lbs before break, as it welds to the melamine / HPL surface and rips the core right out - never glue joint failure. The dado held next strongest (38-40 lbs) then the screws, then biscuits.
Then, I tried a PL butt joint with a glue block (cleat 3/4 x 1" x 4") shot under with pin nailer to hold in place simulating a cabinet bottom where it is common to do this, and is still faster than other methods. It broke under 130 lbs.
Since then, and a few seventeen grand kitchens later, this method blows away all other methods for speed and performance. Double oven cabinets and TV shelves with serious load - just a butt with cleat underneath - still holds to this day. Most of the time, pinning the shelves in place til the glue sets is good enough (no clamp pressure necessary), but I wanted few fasteners showing at all, so I would pin the front and back to locate, then apply 10" reach deep throat Wetzler clamps to the inside. Not much extra time.
This may not appear to be FWW standards (I'm in Design Book Six, so I know the standards), but the time saved allowed serious fine woodworking on other parts like Wenge pinstriping on cherry etc (option that one client couldn't afford, til I offered melamine interior).
Ply is great for this glue too - nothing better for end grain and voids than an EXPANDING adhesive that has stronger cohesion than any other PUR glue. NEVER a glue joint failure that I can remember. Best glue for solid wood-to-ply applications like FF to case. Best adhesive for dissimilar materials like metal to wood, wood to glass, and wood to PVC (prime PVC, Plex, or Lexan with PVC cement and bed wet PL into wet cement/plastic for a full-fledged weld).
Waterproof too - Half my mahogony boat is glued with PL, the other is epoxy (f-glass sheathing, and below waterline).
I've even veneered with it with great success.
"The furniture designer is an architect." - Maurice DuFrenes (French Art Deco furniture designer, contemporary of Ruhlmann)
http://www.pbase.com/dr_dichro
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