What would you change in your shop?
lumberhoarder
| Posted in General Discussion on
My wife and I will be building a new home in a few years, and part of the project will be a new shop building for me, so I have been working on design ideas. I’ve done the reading, I’ve looked at other woodworker’s shops, I’ve drawn, erased, and drawn again. So, I’m now asking to draw on all of your experience. If anything could be changed in or added to your shop, what would it be? What ideas have worked for you, and which ones haven’t?
Due to cost or architectural requirements, the basic design thus far is:
30′ x 30′ timber frame, 10′ high walls, 7/12 pitch roof, concrete floor, wood stove heat, the ridgeline of the building needs to be oriented NE-SW. I also want a 10×30 loft along the NE gable wall for storage.
Replies
Hello,
Sounds like a nice size shop.
Water, drains and a toilet would be tops on my list. Its a pain to have to run into the main house to get water or wash up. For obvious reasons the toilet is a must.
Bob
An in-shop bathroom and utility sink are one of the top items on the WISH list. It's going to depend on the final location of the house's septic system whether or not I can tie-in.
Tony
I wish I had some way to run the dust collector and wiring under the floor in my shop. I'd also make sure I had at least two rooms, plus the ample storage space for the lumber. North facing windows are also nice for the even light they give you.
Dirt and Jazz,
Won't an in-floor collection system limit me in terms of machine placement? I was leaning towards an overhead main trunk/branches with an external collector closet.
Tony
Lumber,
If you are looking at an in floor system, make sure you have easy access to those pipes. Sometimes they get blocked, for various reasons and you have to take one or two pipes apart.
Willie
I've always thought that "channels", covered with sheet metal, or ply would be what I would do. You could come out of the channel anywhere you wanted, and within 3 feet of where you want your TS to set is close enough. I don't remember how big the new shop was going to be, but if you esimate where you want to put various tools, you could make an educated guess as to where you might want to move things in the future. Run the channels the length or width of the floor to coincide with several floorplan possibilites. You wouldn't run all your dust collection in the floor I wouldn't think. I'd just get to whatever tools you have stationed like islands. You could wall run ducts to wall hugging equipment like bandsaws and chopsaws.
I guess I hate to have stuff hanging from the ceiling. Seems like it always in the way of long boards and sheet goods. I have a 50" something tablesaw, and I still hang boards over the corners where a duct would get in the way. Ducts that lay on the floor can be just plain dangerous too, but with some planning, I think you could have a system that is out of the way.
Steve
"Won't an in-floor collection system limit me in terms of machine placement? I was leaning towards an overhead main trunk/branches with an external collector closet."
LH,
I'd probably do both - with in-ground ducts for the big stationary machines that aren't likely to be moved, e.g., tablesaw, jointer, planer, and overhead lines to the rest. With in-floor, one of the things I really like is the ability to remove a duct access cover and sweep the floor right into the dust collection system! With a wood floor built over I-joists you can re-route the ductwork fairly easily (if there's sufficient crawlspace); not an option afforded by concrete floors.
In my dream design, there'd be filtered heat recovery ventilators to help keep the shop comfortable & clean while keeping HVAC cost at a minimum.
Thought provoking post,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
In my opinion, the workshop is the ultimate exercise in activity-based design!
I'd start with lists of activities, assessing the needs of each as dispassionately as possible (this can be difficult, especially if you've spent years compromising or doing without). Go ahead and list everything you can think of for the ideal shop - it's just a wish list at this stage, so it cost nothing to dream - you will be editing your lists later anyway. The reason I suggest this approach is that I've found that, while constraints and limitations can inspire out-of-the-box thinking, unrestrained brainstorming can unleash creativity that constraints sometimes inhibit.
Cover the basics as well as you can: In-floor ducts for dust collection, electrical, compressed air, etc. If you live in a cold climate, I'd seriously consider in-floor hydronic heat. Lighting: lots of natural light, preferably northern, and both ambient and task lighting throughout the shop. Abundant wood storage. A separate finishing area. An isolated, soundproofed, shed for your dust collection system. A systems of overhead tracks and pulleys with which you can hoist and move heavy items. A tailgate-height loading dock.
The rest will depend largely on the kinds of activities you want to perform.
Hope this helps,
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Looking at your list, I would strongly recommend a pellet stove rather than a regular wood stove if you can afford it. I have a wood stove (and feel blessed to have heat!), but I would much prefer a pellet stove -- easy to get fuel, feeds itself automatically (even with a thermostat if I understand correctly) and burns super, super clean. No bug-ridden firewood to worry about.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Forest,
I have two pellet stoves in my house and they are the best.
For the shop though, I always have too many wood scraps to get rid of and a wood stove will be ideal to handle this problem.
Anyways, you are still fortunate about where you live, here in the CA Central valley, neither are allowed in new house construction. If one has a pellet stove, it may only be used on clear days. Sigh......
On the other hand, we don't need stoves in the shop, as we never go below 50.
Yep, wood scraps and a buddy who owns a tree service = free fuel.
PLus I just got an huge old fisher grandpa from a co-worker.
Tony
One problem with pellet stoves. Lose power, lose heat. On the other hand, I used to be an electrician, and I will never forget the crying from grown men I heard when the power went off. I confess I use almost all power tools now also.
Can't you set up some kind of battery/inverter arrangement. I remember perusing one of the catalogs and seeing gadgets that would work to run the fan and feeder-thingie.
Speaking of power tools, I got home from a trip across the water tonight, fired up to get in the shop and get rolling on my project and WAHHHH! no power! Some dufus dug something up and down we went.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'd seriously consider a wood floor, since concrete is pretty unforgiving on tools, feet and legs. On top of the concrete is fine, or use a joist system if you want to run dust collection under the floor.
I'm curious. Is the orientation for solar gain, view, or lay of the land?
"Is the orientation for solar gain, view, or lay of the land?"
All of the above. The property overlooks a low lying area of the Kettle Moraine State Forest to the southwest. The house will be oriented the same direction, and I want the ridgelines parallel. I also want the garage doors and the overhead shop door at 90 degrees to each other around one large square gravel area. I plan on putting skylights in for natural light, as there are tall hardwoods (not mine, unfortunately) to the north and east of the building site. Most of the windows will face soutwest, Which, living in Northeast Wisconsin, means lots of sunlight year round. A great thing in the winter, and not as big a problem in the summer as it would be further south. :-)
Tony
I went with roll up garage doors rather than the overhead type. You loose alot of overhead space, light etc with traditional garage doors.
I put down 3/4" plywood over a vinyl vapor barrier on the concrete floor. It still has plenty of "give". Its easier on the feet and tools. The main thing that it did however was to cut down on the amount of rust on my tools. I hardly have a rust problem at all now.
If I could do it over again I'ld like to isolate the compressor & dust collector into another room just to cut down on the noise. Remember you still need to get to the compressor to drain it though.
I put in 2 nice skylights and they are really nice too.
I'll think of others later.
good luck, Hugh
Ditto for the big utility sink, bathroom, toilet, DC and AC in a separate room, yadda yadda.
I want some sort of hoist and or hoist rail (trolley), like barns have. When I bought a Parks Model 95 planer/jointer at an auction, I had to take the thing apart to get it out of the back of my truck, piece by piece. If I had something secure up high I could have attached a chain host it to it, raised it up, and pulled the truck out of the way and lowered onto an extended concrete garage floor. Then if I had a mobile base on hand I could lowered it right on the base. And pushed it into the shop.
A stair accessible attic, that could be used for more storage or an office. That would mean planning ahead and ordering attic trusses or hand framing it.
More space (13 by 22 now)
More lights
More outlets
More organized
Wood floor
Central dust collection
Taller ceiling
Insulation
Heat in the winter
AC in the summer
Ahhh heck! Why don't I win the lottery already?
Arggg!
Chills
The layout I'm envisioning puts the overhead door at the N corner of the shop facing NW so the area under the loft would act as a loading dock/lumber storage area. The loft floor will be built on 2 I beams 10' apart, so I considered hanginging a cross beam (paralell to the door) on trolleys with a chain hoist for just the reason you mention. I promised myself that if/when the shop is completed, I'd buy myself an antique oliver 12" or 16" jointer as a housewarming present! ;-)
Tony
Edited 8/31/2005 4:58 pm ET by lumberhoarder
Now thats a shopwarming gift! Go for the 30", then show the rest of us some nice photos!
Steve
Get a Northfield. Much nicer than the Oliver. Or better yet a nice new SAC with a helical head.J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Northfield is nice too, I just want an antique one- the more cast iron the better! I got to work with a 16" oliver in a shop class I took, and just loved it. I'm big into salvaging lumber, so having a large capacity like that is a MUST. My current Jointer is a 4" rockwell I inherited. Every time I look at it, I laugh. It's almost cute.
Tony
Edited 9/1/2005 10:18 am by lumberhoarder
Don't know where you are, but there was a 20" Oliver in Chacago that went for $1000, listed on Ebay. Might pay to check the auctions periodically. If one ever comes up within 300 miles of me, its mine:) Good to hear someone else has the 166 cravings.
Steve
I like the Northfield because it has a tripod base, so uneven concrete floors are not a problem. Also the machining on the tables and the ways seems to match very well.The old Olivers have 4 separate dovetailed ways per table, which can make set-up a real pain. Plus the base has a 4 point stance which needs support at all 4 corners or you will twist the tables if your floor is not level and you need to shim.Whichever you choose I'm sure you will love it. Having the extra capacity of a 16" jointer is great. J.P.http://www.jpkfinefurniture.com
Good points, thanks.
Tony
I'm instigating again I know, but here is a nice old Oliver on Ebay now. No offense J.P., I'm just partial to Oliver's, they match my little bandsaw.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7541882782&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Steve
"I went with roll up garage doors rather than the overhead type"
How does the cost compare. I was also considering a sliding barn type door, but don't know how well something like that would seal.
Tony
Also, Read the very next post. I figured the overhead door would tuck neatly between the I beams against the bottom of the loft floor when opened.
Edited 8/31/2005 4:55 pm ET by lumberhoarder
My shop is in Cottage Grove, WI and I wish I had a wood floor.
Even though I have a furnace in the shop and keep the heat at
least 50 degrees, my feet get really cold. The interlocking
foam rubber tiles help, but a wooden floor probably would make
it lot more comfortable.
Rod
I'll second the recommendation for the wood floor instead of concrete. I built with concrete for a couple of reasons but it is hard to stand on all day. I made my choice to enable radient heat and because mine is a commercial building. I wanted the concrete for adaptability for the inevitable sale or rent-out. I don't regret my choice but if I was building solely for a wood shop I'd go with a wood floor. (And one can still install radient heat.) If you do change your mind and go with wood, I don't see any advantage of having a slab. Build over a joist system and make it stiff! Design for very minimal deflection, it will still be much more forgiving than concrete.
The concrete floor is negotiable. Since I will be building timberframe, I don't have to worry about a foundation wall. I could put a joist system directly over gravel. 2 questions though, Won't that allow more moisture into the shop from the ground than a slab with a vapor barrier, and won't wood be considerably more expensive?
Tony
Also, without a slab OR a foundation wall, how do I get a good, long lasting wall-to-ground seal on the building, and what do I place the sill plates for the wall structure between the posts on?
Edited 8/31/2005 12:52 pm ET by lumberhoarder
I don't know how houses are built in your neck of the woods, but surely you can vapor barrier over gravel or soil then build a raised joist floor. The exterior walls are supported by a concrete foundation. Is there a frost consideration where you live? The slab doesn't support the walls anyway, at least the portion of the slab that isn't below the wall.
All the suggestions are good ones. I'd suggest:
1.) My first would be a separate room for applying finishes. The dust is brutal.
2.) If your going with the concrete floor, I would consider radiant floor heating and work/floor mats. My older woodworking friends are already having knee and feet problems.
3.) Separate your dust collection and air compressor equipment from the rest of the shop. Its noisy enough in the shop.
Please let me know how it turns out. I've taken over our 2.5 car garage. If I don't build a workshop soon she's going to show me her idea of "Measure Once / Cut Twice"!!!
Good Luck
Woodworker 3301.
I wish I had a hoist on a rail. Something like old barns do.
Dan
I would have an outside enclosure (soundproofed if close neighbors) for the dust collector. a 220v outlet available for at least 3 tools. and plenty of 110 outlets all over. I would make sure to have plenty of overhead lighting and task lighting.
If using flouesent lights, make sure to get bulbs with a CRI rating of 84 min and preferably 91+ (closer to 100 the more it approaches natural daylight)
I would be tempted to have 12 ceilings at the least.
If Room, I would set up a finishing room in one corner
I would make sure that I had double doors to allow for prining in sheet goods and taking out large projects.
I would make sure the shop was well insulated and I would have pegboard covering all the wall space not occupied by cabinets. Make sure paint all inerior spaces (including ceiling) white for better illumination
Put an epoxy coating on the floor for easier cleanup (include a drop down to a floor sweep access drop on the dust collector)
I would reduce the number of windows in my shop. Although I like having the light and view, having windows on every wall reduces the amount of on-wall storage you can have. I would have at least one wall with no windows at all. Also, I would build my shop larger than its present size of 24' x 24'.
Use skylights for the light1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
I would also look at a covered "car port" in front of the entrance, to allow for loading and unloading in the shade during hot weather and away from rain/snow during cold. It would also serve as additional work room during nice or hot weather.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
Been following the posts. Most all are good ideas. My shop is 30 x 30 including a 6x6 dust collection room and a 10 x 10 paint room. Concrete slab with in-concrete dust collection for TS.
I laid, no glue, tongue and groove plywood (Blandex underlayment, waterproof) wall to wall. All the equipment holds it down flat. I run a dehumidifier 24/7 and have NO rust at all. I live on a lake in North central Arkansas. Very high humidity. The wood floor is easy on the feet and on tools when dropped. It also makes heating easier and cheaper, just a small LP stove (5 brick). Cooling is a small window AC.
And the best part is we ever sell, the floor can be removed for future owner needs.
I think retractable cord reels you hang from the ceiling are essential.They keep un- used cords off the floor with little effort.So, make sure about electrical needs up there during construction.(especially with the timber frame).I think a small space where you could keep a PC would be nice. Internet access and e-mail in the shop,in my opinion ,would be great.
There's too many prior replies for me to read them all tonite so forgive me if I repeat.
In the "dream" shop I built there were a few things that worked well for me.
My Wife????????
LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!:))))))
just kiddin
I would add central air
MK
Yeah, I know. When I say "My wife and I will be building a house..." I mean "I will be building a house and my wife will watch and help clean up." Brilliant woman, just not the type of woman who's very good with tools. ;-)
Tony
I like my shop the way it is. Lots of storage on the second floor with enough room on the first floor.
The finishing room will be added in the future. Should have done it from the begining but funds were short.
Garry
http://www.superwoodworks.com
Well, in another time and era the word was, "There ain't no substitute for cubic inches." Seems like it's still at least partially true with respect to one's shop ;-)
Wood floor! After way too many years I put down a wood floor (ply over sleepers, really basic). A BIG improvement. I just better quick buy some more ply to finish the job before that price goes through the roof.
What I have always wanted for my workshop is a big empty area at one end, 1/4 the size of the whole shop with a big overhead door and some windows. Use it for staging jobs or materials, pull a truck inside to load up or unload delivery trucks, also handy for use as a photoshoot area- perhaps an infinity wall along one wall. Can't overemphasize the value of good photographs. What a wonderful world that would be............!
If I were doing it over, I would make my shop larger. I don't think a shop can be too big.
Sounds like a nice shop you're planning. I'm guessing you are planning a wood stove because you have access to free firewood or very cheap firewood and I guess I'd probably go that direction too if I were in that position. I've had one in my shop for about 7 years and I am going to remove it shortly because it has too big a footprint when taking all the clearances into account and it takes a long time to get it pumping out heat. A wood fired or dual fuel boiler located outside the shop with in-floor heating might be something for you to consider.
I don't heat the shop when I am not working so I am planning to install an electric unit heater. Just my .02.
Well, other's have already said it, but outlets! LOTS of outlets! Figure out how many you think is good, and att about 50% more! I put in tons, and of course, they're all in the wrong place for where the equipment wound up being.
I've got concrete floor. Building is 24 X 36 with 10' ceiling. Lots of lights and a normal garage door. Works out great. Only thing I wish is it was BIGGER.
I did put some underfloor wiring for where the big machines go and that worked out slick. I highly recommend it. Dust collection probably is best left to overhead of a couple dedicated collectors at the machines with short runs.
I put propane stove in the shop since we are already on delivery line for propane for the house and it works great. I've got a remote control thermostat so I can fire it up while I'm makin coffee in the house before wandering down to play...work (sorry, slip of the tounge).
Lay it out like you normally work. I've looked at plans, books, suggestions and finally discovered no matter what the plan looked like in the books, that just ain't what I'm used to for work flow. You've obviously worked a bit before with woodworking so just remember how you have always tended to do things, and that's the layout to work best for you.
Have fun. You'll screw up, but hell, it's still a darn fine shop when you're all done anyway so enjoy it!
Oh, sorry I forgot, the bathroom and a hotwater heater (small) are a great addition. I grudgingly put one in (my wifes suggestion) and I hate to say it, but she was absolutely right. It's wonderful for lots of reasons.
And lots of insulation! I've got R19 everywhere and hardly need heat, and haven't had any cooling issue since it stays about 10 to 20 degrees cooler inside than out during the summer, and 20 to 30 degrees warmer during the winter than outside.
Costs a bit, but you'll be happier in the long run.
What would you change in your shop?
Just about everything if I was about 22 and rich!
Now I just put up with what I have and feel lucky I got that!
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