I’m bidding a job to make around 60 table tops for a mid/upscale restaurant.
simple 2′ X 2′ square white oak 3/4 ply with hardwood edging ( I’m using a kreg pocket hole jig to attach) nice and fast no waiting for glue/clamping.
Then I’m inlaying some sound proof material on the under side of the table tops.
Plus finishing.
Materials will come in under 1500.00
There are interior decorators, owners etc involved so you know I’m in for all kinds of back and forth, wasted time and pains like that.
thanks for any comments.
Replies
$2999.00
As simple as you might think it is going to be, it never ends up that simple. Estimate the hours it will take per table. Milling the timber and appling the hardwood edge, inlaying. I would guess 2-3 hours per table. That's 120-180 hours @ 40 dollars an hour. 4800-5600 is the lowest I think I would charge.
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
All of that is fine, but if you can get more than $50 for a 2x2 plywood table, I envy you.
If that is the case then why build them. If you can't get more than that then you might as well buy the table pre-made from a supplier. There is more than 50$ in materials in a 2x2 table. Your losing money if you don't charge alot more than that.Kaleo
http://www.kalafinefurniture.blogspot.com
ajoe ,
Just the finish on a small table top done in multiples may run $25 each we know the material cost is a reality as well . a person ought to be able to make a few hours labor and maybe even a few bucks profit .Perhaps the $50 you mention is unrealistic for someone in business to earn a living .White Oak veneers and lumber are somewhat pricey.
dusty
"Just the finish on a small table top done in multiples may run $25 each we know the material cost is a reality as well . a person ought to be able to make a few hours labor and maybe even a few bucks profit .Perhaps the $50 you mention is unrealistic for someone in business to earn a living .White Oak veneers and lumber are somewhat pricey."!. He told us the cost of materials.2. Your other conjectures may be true but that doesn't matter because the question was "What would You charge"?If he doesn't know how to figure a job price, the best rule of thumb is 2x materials. If he gets the job, he will quickly learn a lot about estimating costs.
Edited 3/12/2007 10:10 am ET by ajoe
ajoe ,
Yes , he asked "how much would you charge " sounds as though you would charge $50 or less . Not sure if you make a living from doing wood work but different regions even 50 or 100 miles apart can have vast differences in market prices so it is difficult at best to compare one area to another .
Yes , the op stated $1500 or under for material costs , I suppose that included the finish materials as well . My educated guess considering the nature of the question the op has limited experience in running his own custom ww shop. Also the cost of overhead and related expenses most likely is not included in the $1500 figure . If this is a legal business with insurance and all the state requirements and contractor registrations even if he operates from a home site his overhead has got to be a few dollars an hour or so , electricity , fuel , so on and so forth .
I figure 8 sheets of material plus the solid stock for the edges , and the finish materials not sure of the dimension but if it is about 1 1/2" - 2" the cost of $1500 may not be a precise amount .
If he could do them in an hour each and charged $25 per hour with no profit or overhead figured in your $50 table could certainly be built , but why ?
As far as 2 times material cost as a guide line that could possibly be correct for certain jobs but we would be doing a dis service to new business folks by telling them to use that as a guideline , bidding by X materials is not a consistent method imo , what if it was Rosewood and still took the same amount of time to make as an example ?
regards dusty
"...Not sure if you make a living from doing wood work..."I don't know how much of a living it is, but it is my sole source of income.Personally, unless I was desperate for work, I wouldn't even bid on the job. There is no challenge and it would be boring and repetitive. In addition, I know about 5 guys in the area with mass production operations that will probably bid the job at less than $45 per top.But if I was hungry, and if I were bidding, the price is $2999.00.
Edited 3/12/2007 12:30 pm ET by ajoe
ajoe , I hope no offense was taken about making a living woodworking .
I row my boat right next to your's , one man shop 25 years or so in the same area .
You bet , if I was hungry I would do them in a heart beat , would'nt like it though .Maybe not for the same price .
" how good we are is how good we fix our mistakes "
dusty
I guess I should mention that I'm in NYC.I got a quote from the spray finisher and that was 40 a table top.
1800.00 to 2200.00 a month for a 10x12 "1 Bedroom". I would charge at least enough to live there for several months...
Dusty-
My 2X materials formula also had the "non-exotic" disclaimer.
It doesn't work every time, but it's a starting point. When I bid jobs, I try to figure it in as many ways as possible, i.e. per unit, estimated hours plus materials, per foot, per sq. inch, etc. etc. Then I cross reference them against each other to get an accurate bid.
If you're hungry, bid it to get it
If you won't miss any meals, bid it to make it worth your time with a price that adds a new and future client.
Regards,
Sean
Hi Sean ,
You are wise to include the non - exotic disclaimer to your formula , however I was not replying to your post so I was not referencing or quoting you .
Not sure what type of shop you run or what type of work you do but no professionals I personally know bid 2 X materials on furniture or case work . Not to say it could not work out sometimes but , I'm suggesting that is a less than consistent method . Per square foot , per running foot can be a great way to bid case work and certain others as well .
Personally I do mostly case work and bid by the foot and factor in so much per door depending on the type and so much per drawer depending on the particulars , up grade charge for more costly materials and so much a foot for finish and a percentage of the total for installations . I have even been known to add a small percentage for the often heard about but seldom seen " profit "
If I was hungry I would bid the job to make a reasonable amount without over or under charging .
There are many fine makers and craftsmen out there but many are lacking business experience and may not actually have a handle on what the real costs and overheads are , just having a large volume number will not assure profit is taken .
" volume without profit means nothing "
dusty
My experience with restaurants is not good. They tend to be cheap, for what I believe is two reasons:1) Most of their staff is minimum wage, or below if they get subsidized by tips.2) You can buy a lot of this furniture really inexpensively. I can get replacement dining chairs or bar stools for about $100 each. There is no way I could begin to refinish and reupholster seats for that amount of money. Most of this stuff is made in Asia or eastern Europe (see point 1).In addition, this stuff gets beat to death by customers and staff and subjected to food, heat, abrasion, impacts, liquids, etc. If the finish fails and they call you back in a year wanting you to fix it all for free, what are you going to do then? You need to add something for that risk contingency.
Edited 3/12/2007 11:49 am ET by byhammerandhand
truley sad if they use tablecloths also because the work would be hidden. I would find out what a restaurant supply comp would charge and then double that.
Kaleo,
I am with you on the price and would agree with you on hours. I also agree with others that mention a larger shop probably wouldn't do it for more than $45.
My thought is it's worth what people are willing to pay and if I can make money doing it great, if not thanks for the opportunity. To be honest I only do this part time and am currently working with my accountant to see just what I have to charge to make a living. If after I refine my prices to make a living and have the work to do so then great I go full time if not... Better to have tried and failed then never to have tried at all!
First ask yourself, how bad do you want the job? Is there likely to be pull through work in the future from these clients? The finishing part can kill you with that much volume. As to dealing with the clients, offer a sample table top, get them to sign off. Any changes after that are going to result in added cost.
silver ,
First off ask yourself if you want and are set up properly to handle the job . If you really don't want the job do yourself and client a huge favor and thank them for the opportunity but kindly pass on the job .
But ,, if your gonna do it imo the tops should sell for at least the cost of a Laminate top would in your area just as a basic guideline . Commercial restaurant supply houses sell similar sized tops fairly reasonably , check um out .
Depending on the size and dimensions of the edge band your material figure may be a tad low with $ towards finish materials as well , kind of like gasoline .
best of luck dusty
What do the tops sit on and are you responsible for attaching them?
What's the finish?
Lots of questions, but when in doubt when dealing with non-exotic materials, see how equitable it is to charge materials times 2 to cover labor. ( $1500 materials. $1500 labor ) This formula works alot more than you might think.
Remember also when dealing with designers: Nothing will go smoothly. Add 20-50% to your labor. You'll need it.
Best of luck,
Sean
Silver:
You don't describe what sort of business you have, the type of work that represents your "bread and butter", the size and capability of your shop and number of workers.
These table tops do not sound as if they are going to be a "feature" of this restaurant, so the owners should concentrate their expenditure on the things that their customers will notice and do everything else as cheaply as possible. If you can determine which category these tops fall into, then you will have a much better guide to the perceived value. If it's the latter, I would stay away!
Finally, does this "fit" your business. If not, I wouldn't do it. This job may have quite a high "opportunity cost".
Please let us know how this story ends up.
Hastings
Put it out for bid in your area and around the country. Take an average. Adjust for cost of sound proofing, Add 20% for handling. Thats your price, whether you do it your self or not.
The basic answer is time + materials.
When you add up how many hours the job will take, be sure to include your shopping time. That's work on the job, too. You get to decide what your hourly or day rate is. Factor in a % for what I call the P.I.A. factor: if the client is going to take up a lot of your time, or you anticipate changes, add a cushion on top to cover that time and materials.
You also need to factor in your overhead. Calculate how much it costs you in rent/electricity/phone/water just to be in your shop every day. You need to tack that amount onto each day's labor cost.
Always use a written agreement. The agreement should include a detailed description of the project, including dimensions and specific materials and finishes. The agreement also should include your fee and a payment schedule (with dates).
There are two typical payment schedues:
50% up front as a deposit, due at the time the agreement is signed (and don't start work or buy anything until you get that money), and the balance 50% due upon completion/delivery.
or
1/3 up front as a deposit, 1/3 due during construction when the client sees the job in progress and OKs it (usually before finishing), and the final 1/3 due upon completion/delivery.
An oral agreement is worth the paper it's written on. If you don't have a written agreement, and the client refuses to pay you, you have no legally binding documentation that they ever agreed to pay you (and you have a slim to nil chance of winning in court). You don't want to do business with anyone who won't sign a written agreement. It ensures the client that they'll get what they want, and you'll get paid.
I paint.
Hi Ipaint ,
I agree with you in general but careful , some states have laws that limit the deposit amount to as little as 10% down . Checking the state laws would be the safest overall .
dusty
" $40 a top to spray finish??!!!! For 3 coats of an off-the-gun finish my price would be somewhere between $6 and $8/top. If you wanted any blemishes polished out of the final coat, the price would be somewhere around $10/top. Of course, I'm in Vermont and can't charge those big city prices like they do in New York!"
Your nuts mate and cheep. I make my living as a finisher and what you quoted as 6 to 8 dollars a table for three coats would barely cover the cost of the lacquer,let alone the labor. Forty tables would take quite some time to do and you were talking THREE coats so that is really 120 tables one coat - so at your top rate of $8 per table that would be $320- heck lets give the absolute TOP rate in your quote of $10 per table which also include polishing out defects- so the grand total is 400 dollars. INCLUDING THE FINISH MATERIALS !!!!!! WOW
If you are that good at spraying that you don't have to spend all that labor sanding each and every one of the forty tables BEFORE the first coat to insure no scratches get encapsulated with finish AND then not have to sand after each of your three coats because you are so good at spraying that somehow your finish just doesn't require leveling- well if you are THAT AMAZING at what you do that $400 (less materials) will satisfy you.....THEN WOULD YOU PLEASE COME AND WORK FOR ME and replace those useless employees of mine that just insist on being paid enough to eat and pay rent. With you working for me at your rates, I could get rid of all three AND not have to work another day myself!!!" if you are not sure if you have the time to do the job properly then don't bother starting it"
Edited 3/16/2007 3:36 am by lsteed
Andy : thanks for your reply. Please accept my apologies for being sarcastic and exaggerating. As you said you did touch a nerve with your post. My type of reply was actually of the type i really don't like either and probably makes a lot of people not want to post here. I actually work alone and do not have employees ( i just used that example to make a point ,poor as it was). You and I work at the opposite ends of the finishing business as I only do high end custom work and really do not know the production business at all. Way too scarry for me mate. By the tone of your reply, you are obviously a gentleman, so as one would you please accept a handshake on this one? I'm quite sure that I could learn a lot from your ability to offer what I consider an incredibly lowball quote and still make a buck or two from it. More power to you.
Lorne
This job would break down like this in the Fla. shop where I work.
56 hrs labor x $50.00/hr = $2800
Materials (your figure) =$1500
10% Contingency fee =$430
Total =$4730
Materials are delivered to the shop. Customer will pick-up and install. No work will begin until contracts are signed and samples bought off. CYA. We do not work for free. We do not haggle prices.
Hope this helps.
-Paul
don't educate yer finisher, cause you is getting one heck of a deal at...."somewhere around $10/top" , which by my calkulations would be bout 600 bucks. .
right now my drying rack is loaded with two jobs- 28pcs total- about 1/2 the # of pieces suggested -but mine are 2 different colours , primed today, by the time they are sanded, coated x2 x2 sides , and packaged for delivery, it's gonna be monday. 3days of shop time.
you say you can do 60 tables for 600 bucks including materials? sign me up. Heck, yer gonna be looking at at least 100 bucks in post-catayzed material, maybe 20 bucks in reducer and catalyst (they are talking post-catalyzed finish in a restaurant ain't they?) Heck, it took me 4hrs to spray both sides on 28 pieces, so it's gonna be 4 hrs to one-side 60 pieces one coat.
1 .2 gal primer for 28 pieces (2 sides) is equivalent roughly to 1.2 gals one coat one side on 60 pieces.
So, flash em out, maybe 60 bucks in mtl, 60 bucks labour, 60 set up[ and overhead=120 bucks
sand em out 3 hrs min =180 bucks
second coat em -maybe 2 hrs=120 bucks
light sand maybe 75 bucks,
third coat em =another 120 bucks.
misc costs on the total job, maybe 50 bucks
This is totalling just shy of .85k$, but thats in CDN bucks, so maybe 850ish would be minimum just to achive a finish with a tad of profit, then you gotta factor in costs of wrapping, delivery etc. I'm caluckulating a kilodollar tab.
Then there's the costs of maintaining equip- new hoses, nozzles, solvents, time etc.And the sundry components, thinners, reducers, solvents, cleaners, catalysts etc. Nome of em cheap.
These don't amount to a large amont percentage wise on a large job, but on a small job, still takes as long and the same amount of solvents to clean, ergo bigger percentage of time and materials.
ain't nothing like ordering 1 gal of a custom kulur simply to spray two or three pieces. Painful.
Bottom line to me is that the finishing (solid colour) , if yer set up to do it half-assed effectively, in this case is gonna cost me one kilodollar in time and materials.
The rate my local cabinet door mfgrs suggested finisher is gonna run closer to 2k$, and running the quote from another finisher with their rates, it would be maybe only slightly higher. And they is still in business, ie folks ain't walking away from their prices. Why would you.
But they would are also taking on the liability for finish failure/defects etc. paying their own liability/contractors insurance, licence fees, worker's comp and business taxes too.
By the time my 28 cabinet doors is finished, I expect they is gonna be worth the 1k$, easy.Moreover, they would still be cheap at twice the price
Just a little economics from my pea-brain perspective....
Eric
"I might not do good work, but I am slow"
4
You beat me to it...
Numbers I've used before and the numbers I see coming out of good shops now are immaterially different from yours.
With Andy's numbers the more work he does the faster he'll go broke. The fact that he's not broke yet must mean he isn't that terribly busy.
One month's worth of work at a busy shop, at the numbers he posted, would have the owner tapping a line of credit to make payroll.
Edited 3/27/2007 7:17 am ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
glad to know I ain't right off the wall. Sounds like you paid the bills before.....The finishing stuff might be simple, but it sure is expensive...Eric
I might not do good work, but I am slow!
My general rule of thumb is 3x materials, more for unusual or difficult jobs. The rule gets broken sometimes.
I dont understand this 2X material thing...Do you build furniture? That sounds like an equasion to build a deck. I can build a wooden box from walnut while spending only $30 on material. the box would be made with hand cut dovetails and finished with shellac. Would you charge $60?
you have to calculate your labor. That is the most important factor. Be honest with yourself. first come up with an hour;y rate. then estimate your time. Add materials and overhead...and tax. your estimate becomes your quote. Then stick to your guns. If you dont, you will sell yourself short and regret ever taking this job.
Take it for me, I have made that mistake too many times.
good luck and keep us posted.
Gedaliah
http://www.gedaliahblumfurniture.com
3X not 2X. I adjust to get my hourly rate, but it's a good place to start.
It seems to me that it would be extremely worthwhile, in the long run if you are any where near a community college or use an online school, to take some basic business courses.
I spent about 6 months as an apprentice to a local woodworker and learned how bad a business man one can be (BYW he is now out of business). I was doing this while maintaining my biotechnology consulting business. He and I spent one whole work day adjusting the right angles on the joints during a dry-fit up. The piece was on a perectly flat and level surface. He wanted less than 1/32" error in a 2' run. I tried to explain to him that the piece would go into a house with variable temperature and humidity on a carpet with standard floors. There was no way he could charge the client what I would have gotten for the same period consulting, much less the other work and materials. He needed a good background in how to price his time, effort and skill. Otherwise it is only a hobby.
Working backwards a bit... are you making any money? What's your average monthly net income? If it's not sufficient then it doesn't really matter what somebody else charges because you aren't charging enough to make it worth your while.
If you're happy with what you're making vs. the time you are investing then there's not too much to worry about. In this scenario, it's unlikely that you are leaving anything on the table. Don't worry, be happy.
However, reading between the lines one gets the impression that the whole thing has you a little surly. If the bank account is fat, who gives a damn?
If you're having trouble making a decent living then your questions are asked and answered. One assumes you aren't charging too little just because you enjoy being broke. Competition is either stiff, you're inefficient, or can't stand seeing a job go to somebody else.
Prices for this kind of stuff are all over the lot. The owners of firms with longevity and a local reputation are making six figures year in and year out. Some are automated and some still do it by hand. The difference is usually being able to get a job out the door and look graceful doing it. They know how to price work and their quotes aren't negotiable. They understand all their costs and recoup them plus a profit in the prices they charge.
The description you gave of the process is damn near verbatim to a 'customer' I had once who was trying to get me to come off a quote.
You're not selling finishing services, you're selling a "straight off the gun, production-grade commercial finish." There is a world of difference in the two.
You sound like you'd be a helluva shop foreman in a busy shop, but you don't come close to sounding like an entrepreneur who is in the finishing business. You're too busy talking yourself out of making money. If you can't differentiate yourself then why not go to work for somebody else? You don't have anything new to offer the marketplace. Oh, except maybe you have it in your mind that you'll beat everybody on price. Super. Hope you enjoy it.
Edited 3/27/2007 1:14 pm ET by ThePosterFormerlyKnownAs
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