Hello fellow woodworkers. It’s been a while since I posted last. Mostly I’ve been lurking for a long while and taking in all the extraordinary valuable wisdom and advice offered in this, my all time favorite forum. Woodworking has been my hobby for over 14 years. I’m mostly self taught with the exception of gathering excellent advice from mostly this forum and the occasional DIY shows. I’m a software technical support engineer and live and work in the northwest suburbs of Boston.
Now I’d like some direct advice about a job I was approached to do from an acquaintance. This fellow needs 2 display platforms to show off his company’s electronics at an upcoming trade show. He approached me since he knew I had a well equipped woodworking shop which I’ve assembled over the years.
Since I’m not in the woodworking business I have no idea what to charge for any type of job. Luckily this job did not require any special skills, mostly square cuts and some biscuit joinery. The goal was to make a solid frame and skin it with 1/4″ Luan so he could cover it with fabric. The units have to be easily set-up and knocked down for transporting.
Initially I estimated 10+ hours @ $50/hour thinking it was pretty simple. By the time I finished I had spent 2 hours finalizing/drafting the plans (using Sketchup) for exact dimensions from provided incomplete sketches and 20 hours fabricating and assembling the units. Incidentally I made no errors or created any waste during my construction of these pieces. In fact I was fairly proud of the outcome as the whole process went very efficiently. This proves good planning makes for efficient work. The pieces were fabricated from MDO, Luan and Poplar. It is all square and rock solid for it’s intended purpose.
My big question is, does it seem unreasonable to have spent 20 hrs creating these 2 units and is $50/hour far off the mark to charge?
I’m asking because this fellow is balking at the amount of time “it should have taken” to build and of course he could have got it done for less elsewhere! You know the line…
I value all your advice and would appreciate any commentary. I just want to be fair and charge a reasonable price for these 2 units before I deliver them.
I’ve attached an exploded view with dimensions.
Thanks in advance!
Replies
Hello,
I am an arborist by trade and new to woodworking. I have come to the realization that I am much better pre-lumber than post, but with that being said I believe that you should follow your initial pricing and charge the 10 hours at 50.00. Obviously, this is a learning process for you (as a business venture) and although you might not feel that this is fair compensation for the time I would be hard pressed to charge a cool $1K for something that could have been bought for a 1/4 of the price at a retail facility.
Again, I am new to this but feel that we all have a learning curve in life. Next time you are approached by a potential client, you might want to explain that woodworking is a craft or art form and that it is very time consuming. You can also explain that your hourly rate is $50.00, and maybe even throw out an approximation of hours and let the client decide if they will pay the price. Obviously, if you let them know up front, then they are not shocked at the sticker price.
I guess at the end of the day you have to ask yourself:
1) Did I cover all of my expenses?
2) Am I in this for the business aspect of things?
Hey cyberdust,
welcome to the bis. I think you did well, if you got paid. Hopefully you got a deposit for all of your materials? $50.00 an hour is very reasonable in my book, I am a custom home builder/finish carpenter for a living and dabble in furniture and custom stuff when I can. In my area, cantracts are still sort of optional on the smaller stuff, but I never start anything without at least a materials deposit. When I am working for a general contractor as a sub finish capenter, I top out at around $35.00 an hour for basic trim Doors,case and base etc.. Custom stuff like built-ins, furniture, cabinets or anything I use my shop space and my tools for, I get as much as I can per hour $45-55, or gamble my life away on a bid. Stay firm and yes your stuff looks excellent with a lot of thought and time behind it. If you ever want a job in Montana look me up. I can only pay you $20 an hour though (ha-ha) I could go on and on and on about this subject, cause it isn't easy, the building is, getting paid for it is another thing completely.
hope it helps, John
It seems to me that with custom work, design time should be given more weight ($$) than it is usually. It's like we're just supposed to skip over the design phase, as if the project were just as easy as building from a complete set of plans or from a design we'd built in the past. I don't know if this comes from being cheap or a lack of appreciation for what it really means to 'build' something. Since you project is something that must be put up and broken down repeatedly, a funtional and durable design is even more important than say, with built in shelves. If someone is were to pay me by the hour to build something, the charge would be for much, much more time than machines were running, blades scraping or wrenches turning. That said, in that situation we must be careful not to indulge and reap pay for really doing nothing but sort of mulling. But we should not be in a hurry . . .
I think that if someone agrees to an hourly rate, they should understand that there is no guarantee about what the final cost will be. That is the nature of the agreement. You probably should give them (and they should probably ask for) frequent updates, and you should be paid in installments and not have it ride on on check at the end. In an hourly situation, the customer is not paying for the convenience of knowing how much it will cost in the end, and if they think they should have that also they are kidding themselves.
I guess 50 does seem a little much for a hobbiest shop. Maybe we look at that number against what we make at our full time job. I make 20 at carpentry and try to bid more for woodworking. I think you make a little more during the day than I do. But it really all DEPENDS. The more I have thought about it, the more I believe this. I think I started a thread in the business section in the last several months entitled 'shop rates?', and I think it addresses just the sort of concern your having. I'm trying to type pretty fast here, so hope some of this got through OK. I'm no expert, but I love numbers and what they represent!
Brian
Brian,
As I agree with you in almost everything, I do think you are under-estimating what you and the original poster are worth, just by reading your paragraphs I can tell you both care deeply about what you do. The difference for me is if your running your own business. Although maybe only a hobbiest woodworker, he obviously knows how to draw and build nice stuff. Better than a lot of big time contractor napkin blueprints I have been expected to build from in the past. My point is, it is all so upside down and backwards sometimes. Framing, the physically hardest, most important part of the home building process is 1/25th the cost of a house. "Anyone can frame" I've heard that for fifteen years and it still makes me laugh. A counter-top person can come in and make the cost of the framing labor and materials sometimes in 2 days. maybe not quite that bad but you get my point. I love framing,started out doing it, but I have a family to feed, so I do high end finish work. I compete fairly in my marketplace and do what I say I will do. The generals I work with call me when they want good work with little hassles, They pay me thiry five, charge the customer anywhere from $45-$55 for their hassles, and everyone tries to make everyone feel good about it. Like you said, when I design, get material, do all the leg work, build, gas the truck buy a blade, work with the client, It is worth $50. Have you seen what architects charge hourly for designing something that dosn't even have building specs. 65-75 in my area. I try and draw everything I build with specs while I am bidding it, and communicate with my clients or generals as I go. I do this not only to get the job and sell myself, but to learn more and build better. Business is business, charge as much as you can when you can , but do more. By the time you pay taxes and everything else, shop,truck,tools, clothes etc.. $50.00 bucks is not anything to feel ashamed about. do you think all of those mortgage brokers even twitched moving paper around and screwing people out of thier lives. We build things for people that will hopefully enrich their lives, if you do your job right, You have earned your money. A book on negotiating contracts I read a couple of years ago, stated simply, if you ask for more money, you will get it. Sorry to be such a capitalist, but my little Hilde is not going to starve so some rich guy can screw me down on price. I think if you are honest with the customer upfront, maybe be overly honest, if you think it will be $!000.00 tell him$1200.00 and give him a $200.00 discount at the end. I feel the original poster was fairly honest with his client, it was a standard open ended contract that I see all the time and probably would have personally tried to nail down better. Not to exceed amount is a good place to start. Dosn't sell the job real well,but in the perfect world we do not live in , all you can do is try and see what works for you and each individual client.Sorry to rant Brian, I am just sick of defending wanting to make a living doing what I love,and what most people think is easy brainless work. Like framing, or building a box.
Thanks for letting me vent, ah
John
I'm happy to let you vent. Maybe I made a mistake in even mentioning ANY numbers. My main points are, woodworkers should charge for design time and shop rates are dependent on the business model, not the project. It's late, I definately want to re-read your post later.Brian
Good point, and you didn't make a mistake mentioning numbers, I just had a day full of crunching them and talking with clients and designing stuff for them, In other words,not building. We all need to talk more about numbers in my opinion. On that point, you are correct (designing fees)and as a builder of anything, not designer, most clients or contractors do not like seeing design fees on your invoice, hence the higher wage overall for a job well done. That was my original point that I strayed far away from. who are you voting for? (just kidding)
Thanks for cooling me down,
John
Pricing a job is a learned skill that takes experience and know how to be accurate .
I know of no custom cabinetmakers who bid by the hour open ended , it's a license to steal so to speak and not fair to anyone really , if your slow the client pays more if your fast your hourly rate will come out low .
When the client asks how much and you say I'll let you know when I'm done , that's a rather flimsy method imo . Now some work such as mill work for example can be performed hourly but not cabinet work imo .
You can estimate how many hours it will take you and give a firm bid , suck it up and learn from it .
As a non pro that does not mean your work is not top notch , nor does it mean it is top notch , if you charge $50 an hour how much should a 20 year journeyman charge with overhead and related costs to legally do business ?
learn to give firm bids be consistent
dusty
I doubt that it would take an experienced woodworker more than four hours to build two of those units.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
If I was buildng 50 of these units then 2 1/2 hrs per unit would be about right. Prototypes,only two units I would figure the entire day for two cabinets like the ones shown.His pricing is high but not way out of line if materials are included in the price.
mike
While I can not say anything about your hourly rate, I think 20 hours is a long time to build two cabinets cabinets with basic joinery. I suspect your original estimate of 10 hours was appropriate for the work. While I respect sketchup, I think many people overdo it. I'm pretty sure I could figure out the dimension for the table and make a parts list in about 15 minutes.
The one thing that strikes me as a differentiating factor between pro and hobbyist is that speed at which they work. What is efficient to you, probably isn't for the pro's in the forum... My buddy can knock a table out in three hours, when it takes me ten (finishing takes us about the same). I tend to use methods that I enjoy. It's unrealistic to expect my table to be worth $350 more just because I took longer. In the end hobbyist or pro, you should not expect your client to pay for the time you fiddle with your planes or mess with the small details in sketchup. It's just not fair, and I suspect any real pro would be out of business fairly quick.
Finally, your quote and your actual time varied too much. You quoted a $500 job, and are asking for over $1000. I've never had a quote vary that much, unless there has been added complication (which there wasn't in this case). I'd be balking at the price, and I'm pretty sure in my line of work it's illegal.
The key to this question is whether you quoted him 10 hrs @ $50 an hr. or time and material @ $50 an hr.
If you did quote him a price you need to stick with it and call it a lesson learned, if you went the other route and he is complaining you may have to compromise with him and call that a lesson also, next time do not start anything until there is a full understanding of the actual price and a down payment for material, min. 1/3 dn. I require 1/2 down to get the next available spot in the schedule.
Darrin
I don't think that 2-3 days is an unreasonable amount of time for that project. It had to be designed, approved(?), materials had to be bought, the units built and delivered(?). Your shop rate may be a little high for a non-pro, but is probably low for a "real" shop. (My rate is certainly higher. - lol)
Customers usually have difficulty understanding that custom work has a much higher unit cost than production work. On your project, for example, the cost of two hours of design work must be recovered on only two units - even though the design could probably be used to make several hundred.
Your project was also more complicated since the units had to be portable. In my experience, that's always more difficult than something that gets transported to the customer, installed, and stays put for years. Portability has a price!!
Don't forget that your time investment includes more than just the shop time. Who shopped for the materials, hauled them to your shop, and delivered the finished project?
Unfortunately, you probably can't get what the job is worth since you commited to a price before you really thought it thru. You may be able to get more than $500, but I doubt if you'll get $1,000. I doubt if you spent $500 on materials, so your "loss" is on your rate (i.e ~$10/hr instead of $50/hr). Think of it as tuition. - lol
Edited 5/30/2008 9:52 am by Dave45
"Customers usually have difficulty understanding that custom work has a much higher unit cost than production work."
This is a very important point: A good part of the reason that mass-produced furniture (or other goods) is cheaper is that the cost of design, tooling, etc. is amortized over hundreds to millions of units, and people tend to forget that. (I build software for a living, and people are continually shocked to learn that a custom software application might cost $50,000, whereas an off-the-shelf application that does sorta kinda the same thing might only be $500.)
But there's a flip side, too: If you buy a tool, learn a new technique, or make some other kind of investment into your "business" (even if it's just something you do on the side), you need to be willing to amortize the cost of that investment over its expected lifetime. In this particular case, some of the 20 hours was undoubtedly involved in this sort of investment (becoming more experienced with SketchUp, for example), and one customer shouldn't necessarily be burdened with the full cost.
-Steve
I've been offline for a couple of days so I couldn't respond as fast as I wanted to all the great advice posted here. A couple more details I did not provide previously may paint the picture detail a bit more clearly.From the get-go this was a rush job to make it to an upcoming trade show. I spent over an hour designing most of the unit in their office since they had only a basic picture of the finished product with no concept of structure. Following our initial discussion I was provided basic dimensions with no actual details on how to make up the pieces as it was left up to me. I had to design/dimension the entire unit based on these few dimensions. The unit(s) are required to hold over 80+ lbs of equipment and take constant contact from people moving a mouse on the surface over the course of several days. Both units need to be set up quickly using as little hardware as possible with simple tools yet be rugged enough for reuse again and again. I had to make modifications to the plan as we went along as there were a few changes that took place. Based on the final plans drawn by me and OK'd by the customer each step of the way, I had to provide a complete list to procure the materials and hardware. Luckily Sketchup really helps with that so the 2 hours spent designing/refining with it saved a bit here IMHO. I have been using Sketchup for a while so there was almost no learning curve here. Incidently the materials cost around $300 and that's just for what I handled.The materials were paid and delivered by the customer, that was negotiated up front. I used up the exact amount of materials with no mistakes and I didn't work slowly. I would work 2-4hr stints. I used biscuits and glue to join the leg angles and fastened each leg assy to each frame top & bottom using 1/4-20 flatheads (countersunk to be flush) with T-nuts. There were 64 of these to drill between both units. The covers (mdo), which were glued up, had to be exact to mate up with a plexiglass cover for a seamless fit. The outcome was exactly what the customer asked for. It was easy to setup/takedown, easy to transport, solid to take some abuse and fit together well to be asthetically pleasing for the show.Also considering the fact that the job needed to be done "yesterday", the customer pressured me for price while in his office. He asked for a general estimate, so I told him at least 10hrs but will probably be more because we didn't have a completed plan to base it on. He agreed with that without any further questions. I also kept the customer apprised of the required mods as as they come to light.Ultimately I was able to compromise with the customer for a mutually agreed price. In the end we both made out fine. Both units were delivered yesterday.Thanks to everyone's comments and advice. Believe it or not each comment gave me more insight as to how to look at this for a great learning experience. I hope this thread will help others in their endeavors.-Cyberdust
This a lot more critical fee related information than you gave the first time and it would change the responses of many here. You should have said all this in your original post.BB
Yes, sorry I didn't have the time to post all the details initially - I just wanted to get a quick general assessment of the job to help me understand how to approximate the price on such a job.Thanks.
-Cyberdust
Nothing personal cyberdust if I can interject an observation.
It would seem you are quick to put the cart in front of the horse without thinking things through as you did with this posting. Can't do that in the real world and expect to survive or the the client to be sympathetic with your final surprise.
As far as pricing a project, consider the number of pieces in the job and attach a time frame to each piece. I recently complete a farely small physical size project and tried to understand why it took me over 200 hours to complete it. Then I counted up the pieces, 139. The same project without the internals would have taken just the weekend.
Pricing work is difficult. For sure, your time is never properly compensated on a custom project. There are books available for pricing this type of work, it might be a good idea to look in it.
I think I stopped reading after 20 or so posts, but jumped to the end because my eyes are getting blurry. One thing I wanted to say that maybe wasn't said (a lot was), is that 50 dollars an hour is not too much "because you're a hobbyist." Tools are expensive (and tool use has a price, too), time is time - hobbyist or pro. I'm not getting into how much time it should take, etc., as some great points have been made. The way I see it, even though I have a non-woodworking full-time job, if I spend the time to make a functional or artistic 'professional' quality item, then I deserve the going price of that item. Again, lots of excellent points made in this knot. I'll have to finish reading them later.
sykesville ,
Just to make a clarification , yes if done in a professional manor you do deserve the going value of a given piece but not being pro nor set up or as proficient as a pro your time may be different so hourly is out of the question for a hobbiest, better to charge by the bid as most pros do .
If it takes you longer as a hobby shop should you charge for more hours ?
dusty
Dusty,First, I agree - charge by the bid. But being a "pro" isn't necessarily THE issue, depending on how you define it. If pro just means that's your occupation, the pro isn't necessarily "set up" better for any given custom job. If you've done the piece before, sure, you're likely faster at it. But there are likely a lot of hobbyists out there with 20-30,000 dollars and several years invested in a home shop that could whip out a one-time custom piece, quality sometimes better, in roughly the same amount of time, depending on experience (key point). Call these guys talented woodworkers, who, in this economy and times of bargain imported termite barf for furniture, while they'd love to be pros, have to do other work for a living. It's a tough business out there for the pros, I imagine. My hat's off to ya.
I find that the non pros while capable of high quality work and competitive on one off's, tend to fall down when up against a pro shop with 300K or more worth of tools when it comes to a volume order. My orders tend towards 800 and up pieces per month and I have found while non pros can match my quality they can't put out the volume required. The difference between 30k worth of tools and a pro shop with 3 times that is considerable even if it's a one man shop. The extra money invested let's you do more with the same labor , 4 shapers instead of one, power feeders on the tools, etc.etc.etc.
We may charge a comparable or slightly higher amount than semi-pro shops but our throughput is vastly greater.
Another factor to be considered is the relatively quick changeovers required by industry, in cabinetry and furniture, tastes change and you may only have a month to change your design and tooling. This is tough for a part timer to accomplish.
I would consider $30K a not particualrly well equipped hobby shop if the owner was thinking of supplementing his income to any significant degree with woodworking.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Yes , that is a pretty good summary for the most part .
However what many folks forget is the legal issues , insurance , license ,bond, not to mention experience which in my mind is #1 .These things do not create quality but contribute to our overhead and the cost of doing business , something a hobby shop won't have to deal with . I don't compete against hobby shops but I could see how a shop could get underbid by one easily .
When I say pro, part of the definition is like journeyman or the high degree of experience one has .There is a vast difference from a few years and some nice tools in a hobby shop in comparison to 20 - 30 years business and learning the craft and business side of things .
My personal belief is the machinery and tooling do not make the craftsman , it is really what you know not what you have that counts imho.
dusty ,for real
I am very interested in this thread. I think $1000 would not be un reasonable due to the rush nature, the portability etc.
My thinking lately has been about 3-4 times the materials as long as it isn't a high boy or something. for me to charge 50 hours times $50 for the coffee table I just made plus materials it would be a $2650 table. That seems high, and being an artist we don't get paid what we are worth, or do all you guys who are non professionals? So if I get to sell the table it will be $475, which is probably low, but if I don't sell it, well that figure is zero.
So guys tell me, should I charge $30/hr (50 hours) plus supplies i.e $1650 for a coffee table? and what about the fact that during that 50 hours, I made most of the pieces for a second table, should I only charge for 20 hours?
So please give me your opinion I do wnat to learn, thanks
DAveChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
To: Dave
From: Another Dave
I think that you're talking about a different breed of cat here. If you're making pieces on spec, you're stuck with whatever the marketplace thinks it's worth. You get to ask for $XXX, but the customers get to offer $YYY - or walk away.
Since I'm not an artist, I only start the saw when I have a firm contract in hand - and that contract includes the price.
As far as "extra pieces", that's up to you. I'm on the downhill slope of a large job which included three vanities, one bar sink, one large hall cabinet, and one home office cabinet. I began my bid calculations by costing out each cabinet as a stand alone job - then whittled down the total by lowering my materials estimates to account for the fact that much of the "excess" material would go into another of the cabinets.
Woodchuck,Is this commission? or something your making and want sell?
Is there a market in your area for that level furniture and or do you think your work deserves that amount and you can get it? Is it "work made for hire"? Do you do unique pieces or repetitive pieces? If it's kind of "just for sale", well then you get what the market will bear and hope that will cover your overhead and labor and make a profit on top of that. Starving artists are so because either they aren't any good, can't market their work, are in the wrong market for what they produce or the ultimate of "I'm so good, selling my art would be a sacrilege!, I will let the world find me!"
As far as general pricing, you may try figuring out what you want to Gross/year and then deduct all fixed expenses, allocated average project costs, in achieving that goal including labor . From that, derive what "hourly" rate, day in and day out you need to average to in order to achieve that Gross, It's a starting point. Or you can just let the market price float.
"Fortune brings in some boats that are not steered."....Big Bill Shakes.Dusty has a lot for you in this area.Pricing-an example only: I understand that Sam Maloof gets $52,000 for his rocker. Whoa!!! Is it worth it? I don't know but his reputation drives the demand and thus his price. He has a very effective marketing machine in his new wife and staff. I understand that you may offer him 3 times that and he still won't change your order of production. He won't rush.
Then again, he's not making boxes:->I've never heard of a "rush" commission for fine furniture. I have been asked, "how long?" but it has never affected the price or delivery.
Is a coffee table worth $2650? Easy. I have sold G&G glove tables (now couch back) for much more than that. I have seen more than few. I've also seen MDF coffee tables at "Furniture-Are-Us" for $2400.00. And $150.00 at Costco. A little Castileon iron, a little vertigre. Voila!
Value is in the eyes of the buyer, not the seller.For me, I either give it away for free or I charge what I believe it is worth irrespective of materials or time or client. Sometimes it doesn't sell but at least I had the pleasure of making it. I don't have an hourly rate. I don't produce anything I wouldn't have in my own home so if it doesn't sell...
Time and materials does not take into account talent and quality and reputation. As far as a second unit, again I would point out Maloof, Moser or any furniture maker that sells repetitive pieces to the public. A second Maloof chair still costs 52K, as does a third etc. even though he may rough them all out at the same time. Then there is the commissioned piece...A last question.
Do you want to do fine woodworking and make money or do you want to make money doing woodwork? This is not a light question but important as it really does have to do with pricing and how you choose to work and confront your market. (it's not for us to judge)There is an entire philosophy between two such worlds dear Horatio #5 NEEDS MORE INPUT..RegardsBB
I just got to say You people are all super crazy cool. I may have just learned more about the business in the last ten minutes it took me to read these posts than I have in the last fifteen years of working as a carpenter,
Thanks folks,John
Edited 5/31/2008 1:56 pm ET by potomac
BB,
Thank you, very insightful post and very informative. I make things I want to make. I made the coffee table for my wife, and while I was at it, made an extra. I have made many boxes in the past and have given most as gifts because the "on consignment" art gallery I used to sell my boxes at closed, thanks Target, so I have not been able to market them, or any other piece I make YET. I have to find the place in N Florida or S Georgia that fits me work.
I know the right person would pay 200+ for a box or wow, never in a million years thought $2650 for MY tables, but you are right there are people looking for quality pieces I just have to find them.
So far I have only found the person looking for a big jewelry box for less than $30 made in china. I need to keep looking.
Oh and I tried ebay, cost me $30 to NOT sell my box. thanks for the nice post I will print it and read it for some inspiration, and not feel bad if I quote a price someone laughs at.
I do feel my work is worth it, and I like to think I make pieces thast I feel will be as old as some of the antiques we currently have, some being made by my wife's grand father.
Dave
Children are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
Dave,Your welcome but I wasn't saying anything most others here haven't said. As far as finding clientele, it is more a matter of exposure. Take top prizes at shows, get newspaper write-ups (by the "arts" staff, not on the hobby page), speak at groups, not woodworking but social groups where word of your talents may be spread. Market to interior decorators and designers - they are high end buyers. If possible and your are up for it, travel in the right circles. In essence, just because they are looking for a mousetrap doesn't mean they know you have one unless you tell them.Edit: Stay away from galleries.Hope this helps a little.BB
Edited 6/1/2008 11:18 am by boilerbay
BB,
I am new to this forum, so I haven't read what everybody else has said. I moved away from a group of guys that I always had great discussion, and now here I haven't found many people who do the type of work I do. There seems to be a lot of turners here.
DaveChildren are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
So Dave ,
What type of work do you do ?
You could say I'm a turner , yup , I turn wood into money doing mostly case work and furniture .
dusty
I have made a bunch of jewelry boxes, and small tables, benches, and currently two coffee table. Turned some solid walnut lamps back in the 80's, relatives have them now since they don't fit my house anymore, and some bowls too, but don't have a lathe currently. Oh I made a 6 tap bar on wheels for a home brew guy, didn't make any money but I do get beer for free for life, his life not mine I guess.
My wife wants a bed, maybe sleigh or pencil post so I will probably make one of those. I also want to make a dresser. I want to continue to make things but need something to do with them when I am done because we have the things I make and then a lot of old antiques.
So basically I am wanting to make larger things for people and make some money so I can buy more tools.Children are our future, unless we stop them now -- Homer Simpson
There is a lot of everyone here. Mostly exchanging ideas or answering a specific question, If turners are what your after they are here. So are many other disciplines from all hand tools to carvers to power only to those that merely want to expand their esthetic. Many are accomplished and many are new to the field. Room for all and there is no bar to cross for entry. IMHO you never stop learning and even the least of us can offer insight.
As the Martha the mouth would say
It's a good thing.Sorry- couldn't help it.
BB
Having done the trade show dance in a past career I've seen companies throw ungodly amounts of money at stuff they need for the show at the 11th hour.
If you're in the same position again, rather than think in terms of an hourly rate think in terms of what 'value add' you're providing. If they had called a real cabinet shop or trade show supply company they would've been bent over the barrel to the tune of 2, 3, 4 maybe 5 times more for those units. Who knows, how desperate were they?
The only mistake you made was to throw out a $$ amount on the spot - and it was too low. Always, always beg them off and tell them you need a couple of hours to come to an accurate number...but once you give them a number the right thing to do is to honor it.
-Norm
Cyberdust -
Tattoo this on your hand and refer to it whenever you get pressured.
"LACK OF PLANNING ON YOUR PART DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY FOR ME!!"
That served me well in my 30+ year engineering career and still comes in handy today. - lol
All of my customers get an estimate (SWAG) when we discuss a project and - if they aren't scared away by the estimate - a bid that they must sign before I'll even start the saw. The bid only comes after I've drawn up some plans (and they've approved them) and includes a scope of work, time estimates, total cost, deposit, progress payments, holdbacks, and final payment. There's also some tricky phrases about change orders.
I really encourage them to be involved in the design phase because ......"electrons are cheap, but changes get expensive when I've begun cutting the lumber."
As I said earlier, you're probably gonna get hosed on this deal, but if you can think of it as tuition, it won't hurt so much. No, you may not ask how I know this. - lol
A professional who does these jobs daily would probably have built a simpler stand in less time. He could charge $50 an hour for his services and must pay for administrative costs and marketing out of that.
You don't have that overhead and experience. Your design looks very nice. Maybe too nice. I would not charge $50 an hour under these circumstances. $30 per hour is more appropriate, if you are including all of your time. In the future, I would recommend that you determine the price before starting the job.
Good luck. Tom.
I want to be sympathetic but I do I agree with Buster2000. A bid at $500 is what you bill them for. $50/hr is opened ended, $50/hr X 10 hours is not . Thats a bid. How long it actually takes you is your problem. Thats' the difference between loss, profit, and good profit.
It's also not about how well or how poorly you build them.
I love Shetchup but this wasn't the place for it. If your are going to charge for CAD, your techniques and modules should be boiler plated for output on something this simple otherwise your making the client pay for your learning curve or overkill. Do you charge for the separately for knowledge of how to do a dovetail? Sketchup is just another technique/tool. Unless your client wanted to see plans first and it was understood that this was a separate fee. You shouldn't have to design in the tenons or breakdown hardware et al. It is neither here nor there, but for me, this is stuff you should be able to visualize on the drive back to the shop. A yellow pad and 20 minutes. Draw it, rule it, look for pitfalls and your done. If your doing 1000 units, thats' different. If the delivery speed was an over riding factor, that is also different.
Acquisition time and materials are another charge altogether. A pro shop has to figure that in along with overall shop rate in addition to labor. Rate for labor is not profit. Profit is what you make after paying for labor and other expenses. I would also say your rate (at $500.00) was not bad for a 2 off unit. $1000.00 was. Not because of the fee - more power if you can get it, but because (unless I misunderstood) it was not what you implied when the client gave you the job.
You must also take into account potential future work from this client or their referrals that won't happen due to ill will. It's the old saw of 1000 days a great work destroyed by 4 minutes of bad reputation.
For what it's worth, I know of a a convention display company in Atlanta with a full staff that would probably charge the $1000.00 or more. But they do it for large corporations.
regards
BB
Edit: I wrote this before I saw your latest post with time constraints etc.
Edited 5/30/2008 11:03 am by boilerbay
cy ,
I posted in the business folder an outline and list to find out what your overhead structure really means for those in business .
I hope some folks will find it helpful
dusty
"Initially I estimated 10+ hours..."
I assume you mean +/- a few hours over or under ten.
Other than for the two hours design time, it sounds like you blew your own estimate - you thought it would take ten or so hours but it took twenty. Why would this be the customer's fault?
With drawings in hand that is a super easy day's worth of work, tops, for one guy working in a well-equipped cabinet shop with a little inventory already on hand. Did you go shopping? You shouldn't have. You should have called your supplier and had the materials delivered while you were getting your machine setups worked out, etc.
Bottom line, that job should not have run past lunch on the second day under the worst of circumstances.
Working from the drawings, the cutlist should have been produced in a few relatively leisurely hours, say the morning, which would leave you the afternoon to bang, glue, and bisquit. You probably could have gotten that done and still watched One Life to Live.
Edited 6/1/2008 11:32 am ET by TaunTonMacoute
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