Replies

1. 
   2002XX | Jan 18, 2004 05:18am | #1

   I went to the show in Columbus today to see all the new equipment and there was none. I was disappointed. It is like going to the motorcycle show and there are no bikes there. Yeah I like helmets, tires, aftermarket high performance stuff but i go to see the bikes. I did not understand it. I do have a question for you tzach. Was Wood Werks a good place to buy from? Was their showroom full of equipment and were they knowledgeable? And finally if you don't mind me asking what did your father in law have to pay to get that new 3 horse, 50" Jet out of there tax and all? I am buying in the spring and looking for the cheapest price. Thanks for the info and I feel your pain about the show. RICK

1. 
   tzach | Jan 18, 2004 06:10am | #2

   Hi Rick,  I feel this show has been  like this for a few years now and would definately like to see more machines.  If you have never been to Wood Werks go tomarrow!  Lots of cast iron everywhere.  I'm not totally sure about the price of the saw but I believe it was right around 1300.00 excluding tax.  That also included a mobility kit thrown in.  Tool Crib has this right now at 1499 with no mobility.  Not a bad deal huh?   They have in the past matched tool crib with no problems.  Sales staff there seems knowlegeable and helpful while not being pushy which will turn me off right away.  About the only reason I went to the ww show was to get a few small things and  to order a Mini Max16 from Michael Khan... can't wait until that gets here in about 4 wks....                              

1. 
   nicobie | Jan 18, 2004 10:25pm | #5

   You're gonna love that MiniMax. 

2. 
   2002XX | Jan 20, 2004 12:40am | #9

   Thanks tzach for the information. I am going to Wood Werks this weekend and if they are still at  that price there will be one in my garage. Enjoy your new Mini Max16. Thanks again. RICK

2. 
   jimmyk | Jan 20, 2004 04:40pm | #10

   "I am buying in the spring and looking for the cheapest price. "

   Perhaps this is the reason why they don't bother to try selling those large tools at the shows.

1. 
   2002XX | Jan 21, 2004 01:47am | #12

   Molten the reason I went to the show was to see all the equipment. Feel all the fences and see how the tops were finished. Talk to the factory people. I did not go to buy, I went to see all the machinery together and compare. That is what a show is and why we pay money to get in. A show is not for the manufactures to make money but for the people to see their product and buy when they are ready. I don't want to make waves here but I think you missed the whole point about this thread. RICK

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 22, 2004 04:33am | #14

   "A show is not for the manufactures to make money but for the people to see their product and buy when they are ready."  I'm going to disagree to a certain extent here.  Everything they do is about making money, whether it's short-term or long-term sales.  I feel certain that if the show-sales drop consistently below a certain point, the shows are no longer worth them traipsing to. 

   "I think you missed the whole point about this thread."  Well, technically, going back and reading tzach's #1 post, "Any comments on this new line [Delta's X-line] are appreciated" looks like most of us spun off on a tangent!  

   forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

   Edited 1/21/2004 8:35:01 PM ET by forestgirl

2. 
   forestgirl | Jan 18, 2004 09:30am | #3

   My guess is that you can blame it on the high percentage of internet sales, and significantly reduced storefront-sales.  It costs big dough to traipse those heavy machines to shows and back, and when 95% of the attendees just want to touch and feel, then go price-hunting on the internet, the folks that are bringing in the machines are losing money big-time.

   forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   BG | Jan 18, 2004 03:26pm | #4

   FG,

   You may be correct about the shows.  The three that I have been to only have big machines present if their local dealer has them there...never the company just alone...except for MinMax and the like with no dealers.  Part of the problem is a local dealer has to charge you tax too...

   However, I watched the WWWarehouse liquidation.....people went nuts for a 15% discount.....almost all of the heavy equipment went out the door immediately....only the 15" planers took a bigger discount to sell.  Of course my wallet did not open till the discounts got to 70%....lol   I think Grizzly makes a big boo-boo by not attending.... 

2. 
   BenA | Jan 22, 2004 05:46pm | #15

   Forestgirl, your right on the money when it comes to ww shows. Im a manufactures rep and i've been to two ww shows in the last two months and mostly all i hear is i can buy off the internet cheaper. I dont know how these people shop , it seem all the want is a cheap price to buy something. They put price before SERVICE and quality. Enough of that. Getting back to dealers.

   Many dealears have a big expense to do the ww shows with man power, expenses, hotels, and bringing stock to the show and bringing it back if not sold.. Many will deliver the product NO CHARGE to the customer if hes local to the distributor location. Even if you pay a little bit more for the product, you get SERVICE with that tool, and a place to call if there a problem or if you need extra accessories for you product. IMHO support you local distributor, and he'll support you with your purchase.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jan 22, 2004 07:48pm | #16

   Hi Ben, thanks for chiming in from your perspective as a rep!  We can get down to brass tacks here.  I would like to ask some questions so as to get more data for my "argument" -- Do you know where the $$ goes, specifically, what (or who) does our entry fee support?  What about the vendor fees paid for space at the venue?  When we see great big displays of ManufacturerX or Y, is that ever the Distributor of that company, or is it always a Retailer?? 

   As a small (micro) businessperson myself, I'm constantly amazed at how little most people understand about the cost of doing business.  forestgirl Another proud member of the  "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)  you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)

1. 
   BenA | Jan 23, 2004 02:41am | #18

   Jamie: I hope I can clarified some info on WW shows. As far as your admission fee goes, I think the convention gets most of the $'s  from that with maybe a portion going to the wood working show. Now all manufactures pay a booth fee to the show organizer for the corporate booths (the larger upscale booths with all the lights, big displays, gizmos and tools) these booths usually travel around with the show circuit from state to state. Now the distributor ( the one who actually sells the product) also pays a booth fee. This usually come from his co-op allowance(percentage of sales) to help off set the cost of doing the show.The corporate booth help the distributor, by demonstrating the product to the consumer, showing all benefits and features and than goes to XYZ distributor and buys that  product.

   A lot of manufactures are deciding not to go into wood workers shows with corporate booths any more due to the hi cost of traveling and company personnel and lack of sales by the distributor.If a distributor goes to a woodworking without a corporate booth , he usually has the tool company pay to him a booth fee to be there( remember distributor also pays WW circuit for each booth space, usually 10X10)and does a small demo of products to show to the consumer. These salesman are usually the salesman that sell the products to the distributor.

   I hope this answers some of you questions you have about the WW shows. It could be a losing proposition for all if attendance is bad, due to weather or other factors to effect the show. I always said before support you local distributor. Its not the PRICE you pay for the tool now ,its what it will COST you later.

   Ben

1. 
   ajm | Jan 23, 2004 05:59am | #19

   Doesnt the manufacturers have at least some responsibility to their dealers in the way of advertisement? How much more would it cost to run a delta booth at the shows verses running large ads in all the magazines? If grizzly would start traveling with these shows they'd be unstoppable.

2. 
   BenA | Jan 23, 2004 07:12am | #20

   Most distributors are on there own. If the distributor advertise a product usually is done with co-op funds from that product. Just think  where would you get more bang from your buck, advertising in a magazine that has a couple hundred thousand readers or a local show that as an attendance of lets say 6000 people (on a good week end)? Manufactures will advertise,and hope consumers see the ad and go to the store to by the product.

2. 
   ETG | Jan 23, 2004 03:31pm | #21

   "When we see great big displays of ManufacturerX or Y, is that ever the Distributor of that company, or is it always a Retailer?? "

   I think you are getting some terms mixed up.  There was a day when tool manufacturers sold through regional, wholesale distributors.  Black & Decker, Rockwell/Porter-Cable, Skill, etc. all sold through a wholesaler.  But those days are gone; because margins are so thin on tools, there are basically two levels - manufacturer and retailer.

   What Ben is talking about is many times referred to as the Industrial Distributor.  They are probably charge a little more for tools than the typical tool seller including Woodcraft, Amazon, etc.  As Ben points out, the Industrial Distributor  provides additional service like machine assembly/tuning, delivery and follow-up service.  I deal with the Porter-Cable/Delta Industrial Distributor in my area and I had a part break on a Delta Lathe - under warranty.  Unlike Amazon or others where I would have to go back to Delta with proof of purchase, etc., I simply called the Distributor.  They have all my info so they had the part shipped to me direct in 2 days without any questions, needing proof of purchase, etc.  And yes I paid about $15 more for the lathe than street price but it is worth it - at least for me.

   This local Industrial Distributor is the only tool supplier (they also carry Jet and other brands) who has the manpower and inventory to go to the woodworking shows.  And the most recent one they really moved product.  And Delta provided a rep to help man the Distributor's booth.

   And you are absolutely right - vendors are there to move product - even manufacturer displays.  And as you point out, the small business person has one tough job - ecking out a profit, let alone breaking even is darn hard in today's environment.

   The real shows to go to are in Atlanta once a year but they are expensive and they are geared to the production operation.  The regional shows are hit or miss - depends upon the area, the weather, how business is, etc.  But they are nice to see machines side by side.

1. 
   TomMGTC | Jan 23, 2004 03:54pm | #22

   The Atlanta show you are speaking of is the IWF and it happens only every two years. That is the show that the manufacturers do go to. It is nothing like the small woodworking shows. You would be hard pressed to see everything in three days. The smaller shows are geared to the home/hobbyist woodworker and are much more of a retail event where the IWF is more for industry to see/feel new products. Tom

   Douglasville, GA

2. 
   ETG | Jan 23, 2004 04:17pm | #23

   Agree - I forgot it is every 2 years.  And you are right - it is geared for the production operation as opposed to the local shows who focus on the weekend folks.

3. 
   chrisindiana | Jan 18, 2004 10:59pm | #6

   The Winter Woodworking shows in Indianapolis, Indiana always have alot of machines. One will be this weekend. January 23,24 & 25.

   http://www.thewoodworkingshows.com/show.php?eventName=Indianapolis

4. 
   Andrew | Jan 19, 2004 02:33am | #7

   If I were Delta, I would have been embarrased to bring the new unisaw to a show. What a piece of garbage! I was at a tool store the other day that had a new one and I almost laughed out loud. The motor cover on the side was PLASTIC, and the table top had a rough milled finish, not a nice smooth blanchard ground finish like they used to. And to top it all off, the edges of the castings were rough and sharp. Overall I was very dissapointed, as their quality has dropped so much from their old stuff. Unless they do something about this I won't be buying any new delta tools in the future.

   Andrew

1. 
   Robbie | Jan 21, 2004 02:02am | #13

   Andrew:  I agree and diagree with the substance of your comments regarding Delta. 

   Agree:  I prefer the smooth top and rounded extension corners a la Powermatic and older Delta

   Ambivalent:  The plastic motor cover is said to be more dust efficient that the old metal covers on the former Unisaws.    But I never cut  a piece of wood with the dust cover, so I could care less.  I do like the convenience of storing wrenches and miter guage in the slots.  It also help keep mfg cost down.

   Disagree:  The X-5 cuts every bit as well as a ten year old saw.  Your comment about garbage is way off the mark in my opinion. 

5. 
   ajm | Jan 19, 2004 06:02am | #8

   I was at columbus today and yea i was dissapointed to not see any of the big equip. there. I'll probably go to the indy show this coming weekend. I thought the show was pretty good other than that.

6. 
   Sancho | Jan 20, 2004 06:41pm | #11

   The shows Ive been to, the manufacturers usually come to represent the dealers ie the tool seller. If the tool seller at the show doesnt sell delta then the manufacturer isnt going to come. If the tool seller doesnt sell the bigger items the manufacturer isnt going to show them. Usually when I go talk to a amnufacturers rep at a tool show and say hey what could you get me that( pick any tool and any brand) for. they will say go to XXX tools and see what they are selling them for.

    

   Darkworksite4:

   Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN

7. 
   Sylvan1 | Jan 22, 2004 08:38pm | #17

   I dont really think anything is "going on" with Delta.  I have gone to the Woodworking shows in the DC/Baltimore area for many years and I have noticed that it is the supplier that does the showcasing of Delta machines they carry.  I went to the AWFS show in California in the Fall 2003 and Delta was very prominent.  I still like going to my local Woodworking shows because I like to simply walk out with clamps, etc. without ordering them through the internet or such, despite paying the $10 to get into the show.