Friends,
I called Minwax yesterday and asked what are the main ingredients in Minwax Natural Wood Finish (209)? I asked if it really serves a much of a sealer. I believe that the nice person who I was allowed to talk to has never used the product.
For years, I have used Minwax stains occassionally. Their oil based stains are called “Wood Finish”. Under the title on the can, it says “Penetrates, Stains & Seals”. I have found their Dark Walnut to be very useful in many cases.
Well, one of their “stains” or “Wood Finishs” is called Natural or clear. When you apply it, it gives a yellowish tinge to light wood, which can be very pleasant in some cases. I don’t want to get into a discussion of this product versus others, or of polyurathane versus resin varnish versus lacquer etc etc.
My question is: what functions does the Minwax “Natural Wood Finish” serve? Is it a sealer? In other words, is it a thin Polyurathane varnish? Does it help with the adhesion of the polyurathane varnish? Does it have other good or bad properties?
Thanks,
Mel
But I wonder, does it also seal? Does the Wood Finish help the adhesion of the Polyurathane varnish?
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
For the chemists out there:
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
FG,
That explains it all.
Thank you very much. :-)
Mel
PS after reading the responses from you, Steve and Ray, I know everything I need to know. No need to use that stuff.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
My understanding is that it is a varnish, very heavily thinned, though it may have some oil mixed in. I doubt that the varnish resin is polyurethane, since it is not trumpeted on the label. I suppose it has a small bit of sealing potential. I can't see much useful purpose in this product.
It does nothing to help polyurethane varnish adhere to wood. The best primer for polyurethane varnish is the polyurethane varnish itself. You might thin the varnish so the first coat will be thinner and therefore dry faster, but it won't help adhesion very much if any. Other "sanding sealers" with polyurethane varnish must be carefully selected for compatibility, which mostly means the specific product recommended by the varnish manufacturer. Even so, it doesn't aid adhesion, but is able to be sanded more quickly than the top coat varnish. I'd only use sanding sealer if speed was essential, as in a production context. Polyurethane varnish will also adhere to dewaxed shellac, but,unless a specific need for a barrier coat exists,adhesion to bare wood is better using the polyurethane finish directly, rather than over the shellac.
Steve,
That's twice in two days. You have given me very good finishing info. Thank you very much. In the future, I will look to the resin varnishes you told me about, and if I need to use a sealer, it will be a dewaxed shellac or a thinned varnish.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
From my experience, I was gonna say that I think it is mostly kerosene. From FG's post it appears that it is mostly naptha. I found that like watco oil, it has very little in the way of sealing ability, or much to recommend it as a "finish" at all. The stains are okay under a film finish, if they are given ample time to dry first. Adhesion can be problematic, if the surface is not wiped well, as in trying for a dark, opaque color with the dark walnut stain.
Ray
Ray,
After the three quick answers from you, Steve and ForestGirl, I know what I need to know. There are better alternatives. I feel better already.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>> what functions does the Minwax "Natural Wood Finish" serve?
The enrichment of the Minwax company.
>> Is it a sealer? In other words, is it a thin Polyurathane varnish?
Yes, it will seal the pores of the wood. Getting past all the MSDS gobblygook, it is a product that contains linseed oil, a small amount of resin (varnish) and thinners. The thinners evaporate and the linseed oil pops the grain and the resin seals the surface. Most of what you see on the MSDS are the thinners as they are the only things that are potentially dangerous so they are the only things that need to be reported.
In other words it is basically a colorant that acts exactly the same as boiled linseed oil. You can wipe on a thin film of BLO and accomplish the same thing as using "Natural" stain.
Does it help with the adhesion of the polyurathane varnish? Does it have other good or bad properties?
Howie,
It's usually good to know "How", but it is even better to know "why". After the replies I got here, I understand "why" this is the last can of this stuff that I will purchase.
Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
If I may, I highly recommend the book "Understanding Wood Finishing" by Bob Flexner. This book is the best I have seen debunking the mis-information about finishing and finishes.
Earlier this year, I attending a finishing seminar by Bob and it was a real eyeopener about the misleading labeling that manufacturers do to make their product appear to be something that it is not. The earlier post about "enriching Minwax" is more accurate than you might think. The specific product you question Minwax Natural Wood Finish is a prime example and the listing of components posted by FG highlights this even further - other than carbon black, just what is "natural" about this finish. You can't even tell for sure what the product is.
Steve
Steve, I rarely defend Minwax but, the word "natural" has nothing to do with the current PC usage of the word "natural". It's a product that preceded the current PC usage of "natural". What it has always meant is that it did not color the wood but only brought out the natural coloring in the wood. In other words, it did not change the natural color of the wood.If you really want to have an issue, Minwax Tung Oil Finish contains no real tung oil at all. It's primary component is linseed oil. Their marketing department will tell you that their product merely produces a finish that gives the appearence of the finish produced by real tung oil. With one exception however, all marketers of a product called "Tung Oil Finish" do the same thing. No real tung oil at all.Howie.........
I agree with you but, my point was the labeling of products to make consumers think they are purchasing something else. Who really knows what "natural" means as it could mean many different things to different people. I am in absolute agreement with the assessment of the Minwax Tung Oil Finish. Minwax is one of the worst companies at describing their products by the title and they never indicate the true contents. For example, the product Minwax Wood Finish (penetrates, stains and seals) labels indicate only that the product contains "mineral spirits". I agree that it penetrates and changes the color of the wood. Who knows if it really seals since mineral spirits is not a wood finish. For all we know, the other ingredient(s) could be used motor oil or some toxic waste product. One would think that Federal Law would require them to include this information on the MSDS. Go to the Minwax website, and you can't even find any reference to an MSDS on any of their products. As product users, we all have the right to know what we are purchasing, applying, and all potential safety hazards associated with these products.
Steve
Unfortunately, they meet their legal obligation if they send you a MSDS after you request it.
Of, course if manufacturers had to provide the ingredient list it would become too quickly apparent that the products in a category are all very similar. Of course, I understand that there isn't really anything that a competitor with access to a real laboratory couldn't uncover, so the secrecy appears to be more about marketing than "trade secrets."
It's not to say that there aren't some quality differences, but there isn't a good way to find out other than experimentation. Unfortunately, various magazine backed tests don't seem to be very useful, in part because they are always done on an ad hoc basis with out a consistent year after year methodogy. Consequently, each new tests basically starts all over in developing criteria and test methods, and every author seems to have some fluke in his particular testing routine. Would there were an organization with the resources to have their own basic laboratory so that finish tests would be a monthly feature by an editor who concentrated on such tests and had the expertise to develop and refine repeatable tests.
You may want to look into it but it is my understanding that this product is used if you want a wood that has very little change in color but more importantly if you read the back of the cans (at least the old ones from a while back i have not read them of late) I think you will find that the use of this product is if you have a color that you want to make a little lighter. You mix this in with the stain you want.
As for the name natural i am not sure what you want them to call it, but it seams a reasonable name to me.
>> I think you will find that the use of this product is if you have a color that you want to make a little lighter.Sure, that's a claim but you can do the same thing by adding more linseed oil and mineral spirits to any of their stains. The point is that it's an unnecessary product.Howie.........
>> Who knows if it really seals since mineral spirits is not a wood finishAll the Minwax oil based pigment stains contain a resin which hardens. It's purpose is the sort of glue the color pigment to the wood. If it did not contain the resin, the pigment would brush right off when the solvents evaporate. A secondary affect of the resin is that it acts like a varnish which does, in fact, seal the surface to a limited extent. It's that "sealing" that their label refers to.
Howie.........
>> All the Minwax oil based pigment stains contain a resin which hardens. It's purpose is the sort of glue the color pigment to the wood. If it did not contain the resin, the pigment would brush right off when the solvents evaporate. A secondary affect of the resin is that it acts like a varnish which does, in fact, seal the surface to a limited extent. It's that "sealing" that their label refers to.
I currently have 6 different Minwax Wood Finish products on my shelf. They all say the same thing - "contains mineral spirits" and nothing else as to the ingredients. Some of these products contain pigments which settle to the bottom of the can and must be stirred in, others however, appear to be dyes and have no settling. I do not know how you reached the conclusion as to the contents and it may very well be true but, I just can't get there from the information provided. This issue is more about full disclosure of product contents for me - is the product really what the manufacturer claims it is? Is it really a "wood finish" or just some deception by the Minwax to make us think it is so they sell more product? If so, I would think Minwax would be shouting what it really is from the highest rooftops and provide complete disclosure. I have my doubts given the previous post about the Minwax Tung Oil Finish. Perhaps I am being overly critical of Minwax but unfortunately, I get more information about the contents of a product from the label in my Tee shirt than I do from a can of Minwax. I, for one, prefer that to change.
Steve
Steve, Howard and Doug,From 30+ years of experience with Minwax products, including "Wood Finish", there are a few things that I can assure you of. One is that "Wood Finish" does indeed have sealing properties. The more coats of Wood Finish that you use, the fewer coats of Polyurathane Varnish that you need. If you use multiple coats of Wood Finish, you can see that the first coat sinks in the quickest. Each successive coat, sinks in less, and slower. Secondly, the Natural color of wood finish actually darkens and yellows woods slightly, and it really helps pop the grain. It can be used to lighten a darker stain by mixing some in, but it does not lighten wood.Thirdly, the more Wood Finish you put on, the greater your chance of "bleed back" in which the stuff leaks out in the day and days after applying it. It doesn't take much searching the web to find lots of people who have faced this problem. I faced it twice. The worst was on red oak, which has a cell structure much like drinking straws. The bleed back literally went on for over two weeks. I kept wiping it off, and it kept coming out. I swore never to use it again on red oak. I have found a similar problem, but to a smaller extent on curly maple.I have found the customer service reps from Minwax to be no help at all. I have used Minwax Wood Finish for the last time. After this last experience with their products and their help desk, I doubt I will ever use any of their products again. There are just too many good ways to accomplish a better finish, without the problems. I have learned a great deal from this thread. Thank you all very much.Enjoy.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>> the Natural color of wood finish actually darkens and yellows woods slightly, and it really helps pop the grain. True, it's the linseed oil in the "stain" that causes the amber color and amber color is what "pops" the grain. Plain boiled linseed oil will work as well as will amber shellac.>> the more Wood Finish you put on, the greater your chance of "bleed back" in which the stuff leaks out in the day and days after applying it. It doesn't take much searching the web to find lots of people who have faced this problem. I faced it twice. The worst was on red oak, which has a cell structure much like drinking straws. The bleed back literally went on for over two weeks. I kept wiping it off, and it kept coming out. I swore never to use it again on red oak. I have found a similar problem, but to a smaller extent on curly maple.True, bleed back is a potential problem with ANY oil finish on large pored wood. Makes no difference if you apply linseed oil, tung oil or any of the so called Danish Oils or Tung Oil Finishes. The oil as it begins to polymerize in the pores gets warmer and is forced back to the surface. There are a number of ways to deal with with it. The more oil you apply, you greater the chance. Therefore, use only enough on a rag to color the surface. Don't flood it. Wipe the excess off slowly. Rubbing hard and fast heats up the wood which exascerbates the problem. Don't apply oil to wood that is below 55-60 degrees. If you later put the wood into a warm spot, the bleed back potential is increased.Howie.........
Howie,
Thank you very much.
Now I have the bleed back problem with a beautiful curly maple piece. I put too much of the Minwax Wood Finish on it. The stuff keeps coming out. I keep wiping it down with mineral spirits. Will it go away eventually, or am I hosed? Heating it up with a hair dryer makes it come out more. Will that help? After all of the work I have put in this piece, I would hate to think that I have to sand or scrape off the top layer of wood to make the bleed back problem go away. I really would appreciate any advice on this. THis is not a theoretical problem. It is REAL, and frustrating. I will not make this mistake ever again. But I have made it, and it is a pain.Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
>> I keep wiping it down with mineral spirits.Mineral spirits will contribute to and prolong the problem. Just wipe it with a dry rag.Howie.........
Howie,
OK, I will wipe off the bleedback spots with a dry rag, and will stop using mineral spirits. Is it likely that the bleedback will stop after a while (less than my lifetime)? days, weeks, months, years?According to Minwax, if I top this off with their polyurathane, and any more bleedback occurs,it will result in white spots.So, what do you recommend or this curly maple wall cabinet?
1) should I wait until the bleedback stops, and then put some polyurathane on. I could use a resin based varnish instead. Will that lessen chances of the dreaded "white spots"?2) should I not use a film based topcoat, and opt for a hot BLO finish, followed by wax?3) another type of wipe on oil finish?4) don't put any finish on for a year.5) something else? I really appreciate your advice on this. I have spent a lot of time making this curly maple wall cabinet, and it is gorgeous. I feel terrible about screwing it up with the Minwax Wood Finish "Natural" which is giving this wicked bleedback problem. I obviously used too much of the wrong thing. That will never happen again.Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I have never had bleedback last more than 24 hours as long as the item was kept at 70 degrees. I will apply the oil in the morning and plan to wipe every hour if there is any bleedback. Generally, it's done bleeding back within 4-6 hours.>> 1) should I wait until the bleedback stops, and then put some polyurathane on. I could use a resin based varnish instead. Will that lessen chances of the dreaded "white spots"?First, understand that polyurethane is varnish. It's just a varnish where some or all of the resin is urethane. As long as the bleedback has stopped for 24 hours, you can stop wiping. Then wait 5-6 days for the stain to fully dry. After that time coat it with whatever you want. I much prefer non-poly varnishes. Using a wiping varnish is almost foolproof. Mix your varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits and wipe in on with rag dampended with the varnish. Think of the kid at Denny's who wipes off your table. Just swirl it on and leave it alone. The surface should look wet but not shiny. Let the material get tack free and wipe on another coat. Then let it dry for 24-48 hours and sand it flat with 320 paper on a sanding pad. Apply 4-5 more wiped on coats and you should be done.2) should I not use a film based topcoat, and opt for a hot BLO finish, followed by wax?3) another type of wipe on oil finish?4) don't put any finish on for a year.5) something else?I really appreciate your advice on this. I have spent a lot of time making this curly maple wall cabinet, and it is gorgeous. I feel terrible about screwing it up with the Minwax Wood Finish "Natural" which is giving this wicked bleedback problem. I obviously used too much of the wrong thing. That will never happen again.Howie.........
Its a pretty simple exercise to see if the Minwax natural is a varnish or an oil varnish. Just pore a little on a glass surface and let it cure overnight. If it were only mineral spirits nothing would be left on the glass overnight, except possibly a tiny amount of impurities. If it is a varnish it will dry to a smooth film, and if an oil/varnish mix it will be a wrinkled film. (If it is only an oil, overnight curing won't get it dry.) I haven't had Minwax stain around for years so can't make the test myself.
The labels only say the minimum required by safety regulations. Mineral spirits is a required disclosure, alkyd resin varnish is not. That's also why MSDS are not very helpful, if an ingredient isn't hazardous is doesn't have to be listed.
Let's take this point by point.>> They all say the same thing - "contains mineral spirits" and nothing else as to the ingredients. Why should they? Non-dangerous ingredients are considered trade secrets and there is no requirement for disclosure.>> Some of these products contain pigments which settle to the bottom of the can and must be stirred in, others however, appear to be dyes and have no settling.Most Minwax oil stains are pigment and dye combinations. Some are dye only. All contain a resin. In the shop I used to be involved with we regularly worked with the technical folks from stain manufacturers. There are no real secrets in the manufacture of oil based pigment or dye stains. >> This issue is more about full disclosure of product contents for me - is the product really what the manufacturer claims it is? Is it really a "wood finish" Sure it's a wood finish. Anything you apply to wood as a colorant or clear coat is a "wood finish". Stains, clear coats and paints are all "wood finishes". Clear coats, colored clear coats (like Minwax Polyshades) and paints (which in the case of oil based paints are nothing more than varnish with opaque pigments), are all "wood finishes".As for the rest, I guess I just don't know what it is you want the manufacturer to tell you.
Howie.........
>As for the rest, I guess I just don't know what it is you want the manufacturer to tell you.
OK - How about enough information on the container to indicate that I am buying more than just an overpriced can of mineral spirits? Having used these products before, I know it is more than that. Just what is so secretive about indicating that the product contains varnish resins, linseed oil or whatever?
As a point of comparison, I recently purchased a can of Valspar acrylic latex paint. The container indicates the following ingredients:
Water
Acrylic Polymer
Titanium Dioxide
Ethylene Glycol
Crystalline Silica
If this were a Minwax product with the same information content as the products we have been discussing, I have every confidence the only information provided is that the product contains "water". Anything else would be nothing more than an assumption based on the name of the product.
Steve
The chart I posted above is from the MSDS for the product in question. I found it by Googling MSDS Minwax. The official Minwax site requires you to request an MSDS by email, but by going down the Google list, I was able to find a copy without requesting it from Minwax.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Steve,
You are right. I need to read Flexner's book. I will.Howard is also right. The word "Natural" in the Minwax Wood Finish name does not indicate it is a "natural" product, but rather that it is closer to "clear" than any of the other tints in their line of colors. I have long used Minwax Wood Finish in Dark Walnut and in Natural. I have gotten into trouble with "bleed back" twice. The stuff produces some nice colors and it really does pop the grain on most woods. I now see that there are alternative ways to do the same thing in a much safer way, and in a way in which I know what I am working with. As usual, Knots has been a great way to get good info quickly.
Thanks,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ingrediants in Minwax Natural Stain
I thought for sure it had linseed oil in it...after trying the linseed oil and Minwax Natural on Cherrywood they do not look at all alike...actually the Minwax natural came out better (had a slight redish Hue) where as the boiled linseed oil was more amber in color....and had slight blothes were as the Minwax did not and the minwax was easy to work with....Not syrupy like the Linseed....so strike one up for the corporation...Hope this helps someone else out there....Thanks also to someone who posted that MSDA Sheet on the ingrediants.....
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