Hi, everyone,
I’ve just finished making a 6′ diameter dining room table and need to stain it with an oil-based stain before spraying the topcoat, which is Fuhr’s water-based urethane.
I understand that I will get a smoother finish if I use filler. I’ve read different ways to do it, including: 1) apply the stain and a sealer coat first, then the filler, followed by more stain, then topcoat; and 2) apply the filler first, then stain and topcoat.
Which way would you recommend I go, and why?
Marty
Edited 4/7/2006 10:31 pm ET by Sawdust Eater
Replies
Hi Sawdust Eater ,
To play it safe you should follow the specific directions from the brand of grain filler you are using .
dusty
A few addenda to this. If you are using an oil based pore filler such as Behlen's Pore O Pac the manufacturers instructions won't tell you to add enough solvent. Though it is not a critical factor, you would add enough naptha to bring the material to approximately the consistency of heavy cream. (If you are coating large areas you could use slower drying mineral spirits, though there is no harm in doing the filler in manageable sections.) The other thing the manufacturers get wrong is how long to wait before applying top coats. Behlen say's to cure overnight as I recall. In warm dry conditions I believe it is safer to wait at least 3-4 days and a week might be better. If you apply the top coat too soon, there is a chance that the filler might turn white months down the road.
"If you apply the top coat too soon, there is a chance that the filler might turn white months down the road. " Absolutely! I can testify and it wasn't fun.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
what is the best grain filler i could use let say for piano?
The first question is what kind of piano, wood and finish are you attempting. In some cases the requirements for achieveing a piano worthy finish are beyond those of us without the specialized experience in that work.
the piano is grand one. The veneer is mahogany. The finish is hand rubbed nitro-cellulose lacquer.
If it already has a NC lacquer finish sufficient for rubbing, this has gone past the stage for applying a filler. There would likely be so much finish in the recessed pores that filler would have little to grab. The laborious process of applying lacquer, sanding back to almost cutting through and doing that until the sanding process reveals no shiny spots would be possible, though that isn't how a pro would do it I don't think.
It is a major challenge to make and keep the finish sufficiently level to look like a grand, grand piano. Very large, flat sanders or sanding blocks would be needed, as well as patience, a very large amount of light, and a good eye.
thanks. the thing is I've already finished the piano. It took me quite a fee month to get it perfect.I used shellac as sealer.But now I would prefer to use grain filler to avoid "sinking".I need material which doesn't change the color of wood or stain and won't make me sweat to much on a big surface us piano's.
I'm not quite sure I understand. If you are talking about finishing the next object you can use pore filler. Pore filler can be applied over a lightly sealed surface, but not one which has been well sealed. Oil based pore filler can be tinted to provide a slight contrast to dyed wood. It can also be applied over unsealed wood, in which case it will act as the stain. There are clear waterborne pore fillers that would change wood color very little but the knock on them is that they are much prone to shrinkage in the pores, meaning that they require multiple coats and may still leave you with some shrinkage to fill with the finish and sanding back method.
But, if you are talking about making additional filling to the piano you have already finished you cannot use pore filler. The most you could do is to continue to add coats of finish, sanding them back until the pores have been leveled.
Thanks a lot. OK, now I will put my question strait. Which pore filler is the best on a market. I'm talking about oil based one.
I have mostly used Behlen Pore O Pak, but thats certainly not the only good brand out there. I generally thin pore filler to the consistency of very heavy cream, using naphtha or mineral spirits. I tend to tint it with dry pigment. That's harder to mix thoroughly, but since I mostly use earth tones they are very color fast. Using artists oil paints probably slows the drying time somewhat so you would want to add a few days before top coating. Japan colors are also commonly recommended.
Edited 7/8/2009 12:07 am ET by SteveSchoene
Thank you very much.
mishanya , sounds like what you are wanting to do is cut polish your piano,FWW has many good examples on the subject including the latest issue August2009.
Dan
You don't say what material you're making the table out of. If it's a close pored or fine grained wood like cherry or maple no grain filler should be required.
Open pored woods like the oaks, chestnut, ash, or semi open pored woods like mahogany and walnut may, or may not have their grain filled. It depends on the look you are after. If you wan't the open or semi open look of the wood to be maintained through the polish then obviously no grain filler would be used.
If the choice is to fill, or semi-fill the grain then you'd choose one of the grain filler types. There are basically two types. Ready formulated stuff bought in a can, and these come in either oil based or water based versions. Secondly you can make your own as I sometimes do out of fine plaster of paris, water based powder colours and the use of water and rags.
As to when you should grain fill, again there are choices. If you you use a pre-made version out of a can many of these contain dye as well as the pigment that fills the open pores. Apply these over bare wood and you'll dye the wood as well as deposit filler in the grain.
If you apply a thin sealing coat of polish over the wood prior to grain filling then the polish will prevent the dye colouring the wood, but the pigment will be lodged in the grain.
You can dye and/or pigment stain prior to applying a barrier coat of polish and then grain fill, or you can omit the barrier coat of polish and grain fill immediately after dying and/or staining.
Essentially what I'm getting to is that each approach leads to subtle differences in the end result. Probably the only real way to make a decision is to make up a few test panels and experiment with different orders of application of the various finishing products you plan to use.
One tip is to use a grain filler that is slightly darker than the surrounding colour. This blends better into the background. However, the mention of colour leads to a whole different set of considerations, e.g., you don't have to have a blending grain filler. At the extreme you can use a contrasting grain filler. I sometimes choose to do this. An example from my own work is a chemically greyed open pored white oak with a bright green or red pore filler to really make the grain stand out.
Will that be enough to go on with? I felt like I was getting into a full blown article there, ha, ha. Slainte.
Richard Jones Furniture
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