I just received a catalog with a bunch of Festool stuff in it. Why are they so expensive? I know they are supposed to be the best, but are they 5 times better than everyone else?
I mean, I could buy 6 good random orbit sanders for the price of one of their 6″ sanders…maybe I could own one sander for each grit!
Replies
Don't own any Festool but I will say you've got to compare apples with apples. Festools are expensive but not five times so. Their dual mode 6" sander is $390. The closest equivalent is probrably the dual mode Bosch 1250DVES at about $250 or so and irrc it doesn't come with a storage case- the Festool comes with an excellent "Systainer" case. You're buying into a system; combined with with their "dust extractors" you'll get a quality long lived tool, excellent dust extraction, and quiet operation and you'll pay for it.
Just a note on quality.
When I would hire a new employee (I was in another field) they were not to use any air tool that was not efficent. The benifets were substansial when 3-5 guys were all using air tools at the same time. Quietier, 1/3 the volumne of air, far less work for the compressor. dust collection cheaper tools didn't have any then.
The top end tools could and were rebuilt, parts were readly available.
Vibration was much less. These attributes applied to all our air tools, not just random orbital sanders.If you make your living with tools its best to have quality. Ron
Interesting, especially because I' thinking about buying an air-powered 5-inch RO sander. any suggestions for one that will work well for both course and finish sanding?
Many of the companies who manufacture electric ROS don't, to the best of my knowledge produce pneumatic air sanders (ROS).
The popular ones we used were National Detroit and Hutchinson. I still have a new Hutchinson in the box. But electric is just as easy to set up and their portable. The air sanders can get a coating of ice on them when used for long periods of time. There cold on a warm day and colder on a chilly day.
I would think that the best dust collection, vibration, CFM and decable levels.
I use 3-M Hook-It II pads and paper, there the reverse of the regular hook it system. The hooks are on the mylar backed paper, its dissipates heat better. so you have extended paper life and far less loading.
There was no choice per say of the orbit diameter, but the higher end system did produce finer sanding results. A new York company jumped into the market. They were exclusive pneumatic tools suppliers to the vehicle manufacturing industry. The name escapes me, ??? I had about 5 of their different tools. They were definitely high end. and the best of the best.
I'm sure someone one will jump in with the name.
I hope this helps.
Ron
Thaks, Ron. I'm going to check with an auto supply house for their recommendations. I don't have a problem with the electric ROS, but thought there might be an advantage to the pneumatic ones for heavy duty sanding and shaping.
Mumda
I have upgraded several tools in my shop to Festool, and I have to say that they are worth every penny. With the circ. saw system I get perfectly clean cuts in veneer plywood or hardwood in both crosscuts or rips. I have the 6" Rotex sander, which works so much better than the Bosch that it replaced that it's not even funny. The jigsaw actually tracks curves beautifully, with a 90° cut and a near finish quality edge. And, I have their vac. system CT-33 which hooks up to all these tools, and I can cut or sand almost complete dust free. They really are engineered well, and worth the extra $$$.
Most of my customers live in very large, expensive homes, as do most of ours. When doing installs, I used to have to take the cabinet or whatever outside to make scribe cuts, etc..... Alot of extra moving of heavy parts, because I didn't want sawdust flying all over. Not any more. I bring a pad with, flip the cab. on it's side, and can make a scribe cut with the vac system with absolutely no sawdust. The time it saves me is worth the extra $$ in a couple of jobs.
Just my .02. Well, that was more like a nickel.
Jeff
Jeff, I have five Festo and they are good, buck for pound they cost us more. The downside is I sent them a query just under two months ago and I am still waiting for the reply.
To adjust the jigsaw guides properly I had to slacken the guide bolt where it attaches to the body and allow it to centralise on it's slotted hole. Otherwise the metal guides do not close equally on the blade, but this is not mentioned in the instructions. There can be no reason for that hole to be slotted except for this adjustment. I just had bad alignment of cuts until I took the guide off and sussed out the reason.
Best wishes, David
David
I haven't experienced any problems with my tools, so I can't comment on their customer service. I hope you get it worked out with them. Keep us posted.
Jeff
Like the difference between an Xacto knife and a fine surgical scalpel. What would you want your surgeon to use for your operation?
I used to buy a Bosch 6" ROS every 6 months. My shop works them hard, at least 4 hours a day every day. They would die after 6 months or so. Bought my first Festool 6" ROS about 3 years ago. I've needed to replace the pad several times, and the switch once, but it's still going. You do the math.
DR
Why are they so expensive?
Because Festool believes, that at that price, they'll maximize their profit. They think if they lower the price, the increased volume would not make up for the loss in per-unit profit; conversely, if they raised the price, they'd sell so fewer units that even though they'd make more for each unit, they'd make less overall. That's how every seller sets their price.
Why does the market accept a higher price for their stuff? The typical buyer must perceive a significantly higher value. A combination of marketing, advertising, and actual product superiority.
As the various home centers became the dominant sales outlets for woodworking tools over the past few years, it seemed there was a clear diminution of quality on the part of nearly all the manufacturers. All of them were shaving "price points" in order to get their wares on the shelves of Home Depot, etc. I don't know if this was true in absolute terms, but it seemed like quality was going downhill.
And when B&D (the leader in the mass marketing of tools) bought Porter Cable/Delta a few years ago, I remember speculating that the Germans must be salivating, since it was pretty clear the Americans were virtually abandoning the high end of the tool market. Festool had been marketing tools under the Festo brand in Europe for years, and they obviously seized the opportunity.
But they did so with considerable shrewdness. First, they developed their tools around a "systems approach" utilizing a guide rail, but their real stroke of genius was to design all the tools (even the saber saw) for dust collection. This came at a time when the woodworking community had just been warned of the hazards of wood dust, and the whole idea of dust collection was seen as a necessity by growing numbers of folks, even at the home shop level.
So Festool came to this market with a great concept and a collection of high end tools, but each one is about 3 times the cost of the other good tools in the that particular category.
There is a certain segment of the tool buying public that truly does try to buy the "best" tool in each category. Some of that is snob appeal, but most of it is about dependability and performance. I admit to being in this segment, and I try pretty hard to make informed tool buying decisions. Often times, that requires surrendering to the bitter prospect of a higher price, with the hope that you get what you pay for.
Is Festool stuff worth the price? I don't know, but I can tell you it is really good stuff. I'm up to four items (the CS, a saber saw, and 2 sanders), and personally, I think they have been worth the money.
So, many complained when the quality of tools was going south, and now that we have a premium line of tools available, I guess you have to expect that those tools will fetch premium prices.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
You should be aware that the tools you buy at HD or Lowes may look the same on the outside but have cheaper parts on the inside. (Other things are also affected--faucets from HD may have different materials in the cartridge, etc.)
I've heard that before; but isn't it true that such tools can't have exactly the same model number?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That ought to be true--but you may have to read some pretty small "fine print" to uncover the different manufacturer's sku, and to determine whether an "x" or "a" somewhere in a bar code refers to a different package or to different motors or bearings. Consequently, my policy is to pay up and purchase from a smaller company without the clout to get an exclusive modification from the manufacturer.
We can thank the borg for one thing--real lumberyards treat DIY customers a lot better than they used to. And remember, if HD and Lowes get almost all the 2x4's that contain the pith, the other sticks must go somewhere.
We can thank the borg for one thing--real lumberyards treat DIY customers a lot better than they used to. And remember, if HD and Lowes get almost all the 2x4's that contain the pith, the other sticks must go somewhere.
If that's your experience with lumberyards in your area, I think you should consider yourself lucky. I hear lots of complaints that the local "Where the Builders Go" lumberyard chain still treats people like cr*p when they go in there, unless they happen to be a regular, account-holding customers.
Last time I was in there to special-order some steel AG siding, I guess figued I was another clueless DIY'r they passed me off to some teenager who did't have a clue as to what I was talking about. 'had to insist on talking to a regular employee in order to place the order. And if I'm getting a load of lumber delivered, I try to have a GC buddy order it for me; otherwise, you're liable to get the lousiest driver (the type that can't drop the load with damaging alot of it, and/or putting it in the wrong place).
The HD's here get pretty good KD 2x4's and 2x6's; these are special-order items at the local "pro" lumberyard.
Well, I can agree with a lot of what's been said about the snob appeal. Mostly because I've just fallen victim to it. For some inexplicable reason, both batteries on my Craftsman cordless drill failed this past weekend (neither could be charged - perhaps the charger went bad). I was left trying to drill my new DC ductwork using a corded drill that is definitely older than I am, and for which I didn't have a chuck key. So I decided to replace/upgrade it. I ordered my first Festool tool as the replacement. I expect to get it by the end of the week. I expect I've just started a slide down a very slippery slope!
I'm curious how many Craftsmen drills could you have bought for the price of that Festool?
<<I'm curious how many Craftsmen drills could you have bought for the price of that Festool?>>But that's like asking how many Chevy Novas could you have bought for the price of that Ferrari sitting in your garage..........********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I gave up on cheap tools the first time having to replace one pushed a fixed price job into another day... and thirty miles on my rig... and additional materials...That said, there are a goodly number of reliable tools out there short of Festool.
<<<
I'm curious how many Craftsmen drills could you have bought for the price of that Festool? >>>
Stop and think about that a moment. Probably a whole bunch. Why? Because the Festool will outlast the Crapsman. It gets so old hearing that same refrain.
What is your time and the hassle worth? It's like a good watch or pair of shoes or your car/truck. Buy the best you can afford. Take care of it. Take pride in and enjoy the quality and the precision work it allows you to do.
It is all priorities. We do this as a hobby because a) we enjoy it .. b) we can afford it with both time and money. Why cut corners? Do you also buy the cheapest materials? Would you cut into a beautiful sheet of furniture grade ply with a dull $3.00 combo blade?
You can always go to Ikea, or naked furniture warehouse or mal-wart. Then put your newly purchased stuff together with the Ace Hardware $4.00 screwdriver set and the Crapsman 12V drill/driver that wobbles and the clutch slips.
Power tools or good old fashioned hand tools. Get the best and enjoy them for what they are. They FEEL good to use. ...The unspoken word is capital. We can invest it or we can squander it. -Mark Twain...
SO ...what your saying is you can always feel a pile of crap in the dark?
Agree. I buy my vehicles new- the best I can afford. I change the oil regularly, replace the tires and maintain the brakes. Then I drive them until the wheels come off, usually around 200,000 miles. End result: I get my money's worth and have a reliable vehicle while I'm getting it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"Then I drive them until the wheels come off, usually around 200,000 miles."Great example! So you're buying the best and only getting 200K while I have a 94 Chevy pickup with 414K and still going fine. (I'll even post a pic of the odometer if you guys don't believe me) Oh, and I only paid $16,000 for it. I think value is subjective. I have many power tools. I have 4 sanders that I use regularly and they do not add up to the cost of one Festool sander. I perceive value in having these sanders set-up for different grits. I also sometimes drop these sanders and don't "freak out" thinking I just dropped a $300 tool.
Perhaps if you didn't drop them so often, you wouldn't need 4. One good tool properly cared for is worth 4 that aren't. My go to jack is an 1888 Bailey #5. But I try not to drop it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
True, but also consider that if you used that plane daily (as in not just a hobby) then the likelihood of dropping it is far greater.Actually, I've never lost a power tool because of dropping, but I was considering that as a possibility. If I used the same drill for every operation, then I would probably drop it since I'd be changing bits so often."One good tool properly cared for is worth 4 that aren't." You see, we apparently see value differently. By your reasoning one expensive chisel is better than 4 cheaper chisels of different sizes. O(ne saw for everything?Does a $12,000 combination machine mean it's better than $7,000 stationary tools just because that machine says "Minimax"? I don't think so...
Well, I come back here to find I've stirred up quite a hornet's nest buying a Festool drill to replace my Craftsman! I got it, I like it, and it doesn't cause undue economic hardship on me or my family, so I'm quite satisfied with having bought my first Festool tool and I strongly suspect I will buy more. Differing perspectives is what creates variety and competition among suppliers after all...
Have fun and stay safe.
Brian
Edited 11/2/2006 2:02 pm ET by bwiele
Not to be too obvious (although in this case, that indeed may not be possible), but a Bailey #5 that is >110 years old has probably seen use as more than a hobby plane.As for my "non-hobby" tools- there's just one. A stethoscope. I've had it- just the one- for 26 years. I've replaced the rubber hosing and the ear pieces from time to time, but it has ascultated thousands of chests.And I do try not to drop it.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You state -- flatly -- that the Festool will outlast the Craftsman. The problem is, we don't know that for sure (because Festool hasn't been in the US market that long), but we make this assumption because the Festool products are much more costly. In time we will find out if indeed that is the case. You could also say that the home centers have done a service to the tool buying public by dragooning manufacturers to think about how they can continue to make their wares less expensive. But at the same time, I am grateful that companies like Festool, Fein, Metabo, and Hilti have recognized this trend, and have made efforts to introduce their tools to the high end of the market. As a tool buyer, I don't think there has ever been a time when the various market segments -- from low to high -- have been so well served.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I could be wrong - often am - but I seem to remember someone form the UK, maybe Scrit - writing that many Festool products are produced by another firm. So many do have long track records in Europe but under a different name.
They have been doing business for years in Europe under the Festo brand, but I don't know if the range of tools here in the US (with the Festool brand)is a new line, or if it has been around for some time.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
The have been on sale in Australia under the Festo Brand or Festool for about 20 yrs The name change to Festool related to a change in the company structure.
Regards from OZYou can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
If they have been available for so long in Europe and Australia, any idea why it took them so long to bring the tools to the US?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Maybe the US market wasn't ready to appreciate high end quality in tools as was the case with cars.
I don't know for sure, but when you look at the size of the U.S. market, and the challenges posed by the distribution, marketing, promotion and supply chain issues it must seem pretty daunting to many off shore firms. The investments required are sizable.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I have no idea it may have to do with our and Europe being 240v supply the are far more exspensive here than the US of A
Regards from OZYou can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
I have to say--this has been one of the few threads where people seem to have strong opinions and yet HAVEN'T gone too far in disagreeing with one another.
Thanks for the good read.
Festo and Maffel share many similarities, but the latter are less costly and are marketed as seeming more basic. I must look into this, two months on from my query to Festo on a perceived error regarding the jigsaw and I am still waiting for a reply.
I did think about it, and my time is very valuable since I do this for a living. Therefore, buying 3 or 4 "Crapsman" makes MORE SENSE to me than buying one Festool drill. I can leave each drill set-up for a specific task, thereby saving time changing bits. Also, if I use 4 drills instead of one, in theory the 4 drills should last 4 times longer.Not to mention, if I ever dropped and broke the Festool, I'd cry myself to sleep that night! If I drop the "Crapsman" and break it, I can just grab another since I bought 3.Now the saw and guide I see as being a unique tool with very inherent value almost worth the money. But a $350 cordless drill? C'mon man...
Yes my friend, you are about to experience what is called, " the Festool syndrome."
The motors are so perfectly balanced. And the quality is there in every tool.
You'll start thinking of reasons to purchase more.
Several years ago I believe Consumer Reports looked into that issue relative to white goods and yard equipment. They found that the manufacturers were making special runs for the box stores but with the same name plate and almost the same number. Since the number changes with new models anyway, it is hard to keep track of what is what.
I wish one or another of the woodworking mags would take on this issue, but I doubt they will.
Even with modern manufacturing technology, it kind of defies logic (at least for me) that there is enough financial incentive to do one run of a particular tool with the regular parts, and then another with cheaper parts.But the rumor persists, especially with Dewalt, so maybe.........********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I wish one or another of the woodworking mags would take on this issue, but I doubt they will. Even with modern manufacturing technology, it kind of defies logic (at least for me) that there is enough financial incentive to do one run of a particular tool with the regular parts, and then another with cheaper parts.
But the rumor persists, especially with Dewalt, so maybe.........
Especially if the warranty is the same length; they'd be assuming a bigger liability if they extended the same warranty to products more likely to break down.
OTOH, Wal-mart does deals like this for some product lines; maybe the big boxes do it for power tools(?)
I don't have any experience with HD tools but I tried to get some parts for an American Standard toilet purchased there. I spoke directly to an AS company representative and I was informed that the particular model line was exclusive to HD. The AS company could not even cross reference any parts or suggest a retrofit. It was as though the name had been sold to HD, or a subsidiary was set up to supply HD, since AS had no idea what the toilet even looked like.I have a garden tractor from HD, It's labeled Scotts but says made by John Deere. If you need service, you have to take it to a pre-approved dealer, not just any John Deere dealer. At the time the lowest priced John Deere was twice what the Scotts tractor sold for and was completely different than any John Deere model. I don't think folks realize how big, really big HD is. $45 billion/yr in sales. 1200 stores and expanding in Mexico and South America. They own, Georgia Lighting, Apex supply and other companies. Their product partners have seen gains as much as 36%. Their five year goal, under CEO Nardelli, is to reach $100 billion, which would be 25% of the $400 billion home improvement market. Recently I saw where HD is the worlds largest importer of mahogany. When was the last time you saw any mahogany in HD? I'm guessing it's in one or more of their products. They must sell one heck of a lot of them, whatever they are. We have a local store that buys all kinds of stuff from insurance claims, accidents, overstocks, etc. Recently, they had purchased pallets of nails. An entire warehouse was filled with these that had been ordered by HD. It was too expensive for the company to bother to open or move the pallets, so this store bought the whole warehouse for pennies on the dollar. If a company is associated with HD, they can see a growth of one third in sales. You bet they would set up a manufacturing facility that will build whatever, however HD wants it.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Walmart has always received a lot of publicity for their pressuring tactics with suppliers. But HD has managed somehow to stay more under the radar, and we can only guess what compromises they force on their suppliers. But from what you and others have said, it seems pretty clear HD is equally aggressive in working their vendors; the qustion is, do they force tool suppliers (like Dewalt, for instance) to do a "lower quality" run for a particular tool that is also available to other tool outlets?If they do, I am assuming that tool has to carry at least a somewhat modified model number, but now I'm wondering if that's realy the case. BTW, there was an interesting piece earlier this week in the NYT about Nardelli's plan to expand the range of products sold to stuff like gas, seasonal decorations, etc.http://tinyurl.com/t5ca8********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Funny you should mention Home Despot and toilets. I live in the San Francisco bay area and live about 1/2 mile from HD. Last year we finished a home addition to our house where we added a bedroom and bath. Anyway one of the things we needed were sinks and facets as well as toilets so my wife went to HD and tells me that we can order what we want out of the catolog. So one day we go over there and pick all of the stuff out of the catologs and then go to the sales person in the kitchen and bath department and after waiting the required 20 minutes for the person to get off the phone this "sales" person tells us that what we want is all special order and our catolog #s are all wrong, then she spends another 20 minutes looking up the #s and getting all of our info. Then she looks at her watch and tells us here shift is over and no one else can help us and she will call us the next day with a price. The long of it is that she never called and I ordered all of the things we needed from a local plumbing wholesaler for less money and no hassle. I think for the entire room addition maybe 95% of the budget was spent elseware than HD. Not that this is that relevnent to the topic but when people complaine about HD the should just take their money elseware.Troy
While we are on the HD rant I have something for everyone to chew on for a little while. Recently I needed 160 3/8 x 5 lag bolts and washers for a job. HD wanted .59 and .09 respectively. A fastener warehouse just 5 blocks away had the same hardware for .33 and .06. HD would like us to believe that they have the lowest prices everyday. Go figure.
I bought a new john from Lowes. The tank started dripping into the bowl and I couldn't get it to stop . I went back to Lowes with the receipt which was almost a year old. They said bring back the tank for exchange that the didn't have parts. It was a American Standard.
The rumors of separate production runs for HD has come from very good sources. With Home Depot or Lowes that production run would be quite large indeed. Without knowing any specifics it could well be that those two retail chains account for a substantial portion of sales for certain tools, perhaps even more than half.
As far as warranty costs, HD may be powerful enough to either make the manufacturer eat greater warrantly costs, or possibly participate in those costs.
Vendors to large chains face a serious problem--they can cut volume by not selling to HD (or WalMart for other products) or they can greatly expand volume by being a favored supplier. An all too common scenario is that when they first chose to expand volume they need to borrow to finance the expansion, so that when the retailer pushes for lower prices a few years down the road they are caught with no way out--and chapter 11 may well be the result, followed by outsourced production from the lowest cost producing countries. So the ultimate impact may be to the suppliers' workers and raw material suppliers, as well as the owners (shareholders of public companies) who get wiped out even as the companies reorganize to produce even more cheaply.
Your points are well taken. There's no question that tool makers do special runs for the home centers, the real question is whether XYZ drill, made for HD, is the self same drill made for every one else -- and whether or not the two carry exactly the same model number. If that's what is happening, everybody seems to be keeping it under wraps. Just yesterday I spoke to a contractors rep I know well who works for Menards, a grizzled guy who has been on the retail side of the business for 20 some years. He told me Makita has done some tools specifically for Menards, but they are branded separately from the rest of their line. He said he had never heard any scuttlebutt about separate runs of tools with the same (or similar) model numbers.Edit: I'm sure you know about the classic Walmart case with Vlasic pickles, and it would seem many other companies are going down the same line in terms of exerting enormous pressure on their vendors.http://www.fastcompany.com/online/77/walmart.htmlThat doesn't mean it doesn't happen -- just that nothing is said about it.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Edited 10/30/2006 12:11 am by nikkiwood
Steve,
By Brother in Law is a Master Plumber. He specializes in service work not new construction. He told me that about 50% of his work comes from home owners who installed HD plumbing fixtures in their homes. He said the home owners installed everything properly. But the units only seem to last only a year or two. After he removes HD (name brand) faucets he takes his faucet in one hand and the HD unit in the other, and can feel that the overall weight of his unit is 2X the weight of the HD unit.
And Yes.. These are the exact same brands, and model numbers.
Yes, before I knew better I used some Moen faucets from HD. When they began a small drip after about 2 years, I replaced the cartridges with some from the plumbing supply place that were about double the price as the replacements sold by HD, but which have lasted for the last 8 years as good as new. A small sample to be sure, but I hear the same thing regularly from others. There is a thread on another forum talking about the inferior quality observed in nails and screws from the borg.
The underlying message is that there is no free lunch. As a consequence, we have a high-end lumber yard here in Connecticut that has been expanding fairly rapidly. Yes, prices are higher than the borg, but my impression is that the prices are commensurate with quality. And, when I ask a question, there is someone eager to provide an answer, and who has picked up the phone to call if it was something that he needed to look up or ask an expert.
My plumber and I just had the exact same discussion a couple of months back. He said half his business came from Home Depot customers. What a hoot!
Jeff
You have to compare these festool threads with the comparable plane threads. Most will recommend the top end at more than 5 times the price of the alternative.
Festool here has well-priced consumables. I dont reaqlly use the one tool I have sufficiently for that to make a difference, but legend has it that the whole of life cost considering consumable alone apparently makes them price equivalent.
Dave
If by "consumables" you mean stuff like sandpaper, I will grant you that Festool prices theirs at about the same level as other brands.But the consumables pricing is not less than the competition, and your argument is therefore not valid here. However, the jury is still out on whether the Festool machines will last longer than their competitors, and need fewer repairs. But I'm sure all of us who have bought Festool hope that will be the case.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
I have owned a Festo RO 150E R/O sander for about 10 years. I also own, every sander that Fein makes. All them are run with dust collectors, obviously.Everything said about the Festo's ergonomics are true. It doesn't have a high profile like the Fein and it is more manageable for two reasons. 1. Low profile.2. The orbit dimension is smaller. As I recall, the Festo has an orbit of about 3/8 in. while the Fein is around 1/2 inch. In true random orbit operation the Fein will generally perform better (faster stock removal) than the Festo, in my experience. The Fein can be a bit of a challenge to handle in some situations and is a bit more awkward to handle when confronted with non-horizontal surfaces. But, over the years I have preferred the Fein to the Festo and put countless hours on that 6 in sander. To the tune of at least a half dozen pads. The Festo is still on its original.Having sed all of that, I recently tried the RO 150's driven mode of operation (non-random) on paint. Specifically on a large wooden boat that I'm refurbishing. I wanted the advantage of the low profile to ease the burden. It worked very well in that mode. However, It also began to make some horrible noises in the drive.On investigation, I discovered that the seal that separates the machine parts from the dust and dirt parts has a helluva short coming. The seal is a rubber diaphragm with a hard steel ring in the center that encloses the output shaft. That steel ring had worn a groove around the shaft and allowed sanding grit to enter the gearing behind the seal. Not good. The plastic gears inside where twirling in bath of crap. Meanwhile, the rubber diaphragm is as sound as the day it was made. And why not, it doesn't have many hrs on it.I won't pretend to advise Festo on a fix but it seems to me that for the money spent, I shouldn't now have to look at a shaft replacement in order to restore operation. I may just run it to failure and toss it like their D shaped 3/8 drill. Speaking of which, the battery charger failed awhile back and they wanted something like $300 for a replacement. After some heated discussion with a service guy, I was sent a used replacement gratis. While I do like many of their features, my overall impression of Festo is that "you can buy better but you can't pay more".If all you do is sand knick knack shelves for the grandkids, by all means you'll be pleased with Festo. If you're doing large flat surfaces, as most of us do, try the Fein half sheet sander. I let mine lie fallow for a long time becuz the aluminum platen was not perfectly flat. Having taken the time and trouble to tune it, I now can't live without it. On an added note, .......... with so many sanders and odd hole patterns, I have made steel punch plates to make sheets and discs for any machine in inventory. That way I can buy the grit that best fits the job and not have to worry about the hole pattern ......... or just buy Mirka's Abranet, which works purty well but it doesn't come in grits courser than 80.That's my story and I'm stickin to it.
Edited 10/29/2006 10:41 pm ET by gapdn
What is a good random sander compared to an excellent one.
You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
In my 27+ years of woodworking, I have owned and used most every brand of hand held power tool available B&D to Craftsman, Bosch, Dewalt, Porter Cable, Makita, Hitachi, Ryobi and several others that I don't even remember.
For the past 5 years I have been using Festool and I can answer the question that they are definitely worth the premium price to me. They are ergonomically designed, low vibration, have dust collection that actually works, reliable, and simply built to last. My previous "good" ROS (Bosch and Porter Cable brands) left my hands and arms tingling after about 15 minutes of use and dust (even when hooked to a vacuum) is all over the place. The Festool Rotex with the CT-22 extractor I can use all day long with no tingling and no perceptable dust anywhere. Also, this dust collection results in much much longer life of the sandpaper. For me, they are worth much more than 5 times the price of the "good" tools.
Steve
I agree with the previous posting about Festool. They make a high quality product, at a premium price. Their success is due to the fact that many other manufacturers have abandoned the field.
For me, whether I buy a Festool or not depends on the indivdual merits, and the use(s) I plan for the tool.
I have the 1400 router and the circular saw, and both work very well for me. The former allows me to cut sliding dovetails very precisely, the latter has essentially replaced my TS for sheet goods.
I don't own the Festool ROS, I have a Porter Cable ROS that I don't use very much... so why would I buy a more expensive ROS that I woudn't use very much? For others, the dust collection of the ROS is a key feature, particularly with their trade-, so for them it is worth it.
I will need a jigsaw in the near future, but it is a tool that I will likely use occasionally. I'll probably go with the Bosch, as I think it will be good enough for my purposes and is a lot less costly than the Festool.
So to me, whether a Festool is worth the price comes down to how often I'll use it, what advantages it has and how good is a competing, less expensive tool.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 10/27/2006 9:55 pm ET by Glaucon
I am much in agreement with you. Festool's worth depends on your intended use. I use mine to make my living, and while it is true that often I could replace a different brand much cheaper, the down time costs me too much when a tool breaks. I am of the mind that craftsmanship breeds craftsmanship. The precision and quality of their tools inspires me to reach for greater levels in my own work while simultaneously helping me achieve them. Their tools (Circ saw, jig saw, sanders, and router) cause me less muscle fatigue as well. It seems to me too though that those of us in woodworking should understand the cost of quality without too much explanation. I would hate to think of the furniture I build, or the floors I install as disposable. I think that most of my products ansd installations are capable of lasting generations. In a generation that has recognized the limited nature of resources it seems fairly callous to plan on throwing away the same tool several times in order to reduce initial cost. I find myself constantly fighting to help people understand the difference between an heirloom quality piece of furniture and one that will only last a few years. It is fairly cynical to make the tool manufactures fight this same battle/trend as well.
luke
p.s. I don't think that festool is the only excellent brand, only that they are excellent and justifiably expensive.
Edited 10/27/2006 7:07 pm ET by quietude
Yours seems like an informed decision to me. Not everyone would do the same, but that's OK. What is tedious are those who declaim that no one should use a Festool... or conversely that no one should use anything else.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
You said it right
Ahhh the Grizzlyfication of America --- a natural distrust if not outright disbelief that there is such a thing as a premium electric woodworking tool (Festo) that could be better than the woodworking equivalent of the dimestore junk that people desparately want to believe is quality equipment.
Festo (ditto Hammer, Felder, Holz Her, et al.) is worth every penny. Period.
If you can't afford it, don't blame the companies that make it.
Woodworking is big business. Some companies make tools for pros. Other companies make tools for folks turning in Coke bottles for the nickel deposit. Sorry, that's just the way it is.
If you're not trying to set up shop on paper route money, Festo would be a wonderful addition to your operation - pro or serious amateur.
Edited 10/30/2006 4:35 pm ET by TaunTonMacoute
I know im coming into this disscussion a little late, but i would like to chime in with my .02 anyway. I recenly purchased the Festool TS 55 "plunge" saw, a 1010 router, and a CT 30 Dust Extractor. The only coments I have are positive. These tools are engineered to the nines, from the integrated "extraction" all the way down to the packaging. When unpacking the Collecter, I noticed the ribbed cardboard in the bottom of the box and thought to myself, "oh, thats just set down in there". Come to find out it was all part of the box and unfolded easily. 1 piece, no extra packaging material. On the other hand, i just took delivery of a replacement motor cover for my Powermatic 66 because the original broke (imagine that). It on the other hand had atleast 65 of those bagged air pouches in it's box. All I could think, was what a waste of money and resources that is. I know this may make me sound like an extreme tree hugger (which i do not consider myself to be), but if there is a more efficient way, why not use it?
It takes a brain, a will, and enough profit in the sale to make it possible..................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
this thread has gone is quite a far off direction. Lets face it, most Americans only care about the bottom line. If you go look at old tools (pre 1870) they are absolute works of art. They were made with great pride by highly skilled craftsmen. The tools were a mans livelyhood and he treated them with respect. Today a tool is disposable... no one really cares about its future for it will break and be thrown away to be replaced again. Isn't capitallism great? Most woodworkers today are not even trained in their field. Any guy with a table saw considers himself a professional woodworker. Most wookworkers don't even know how to use a block plane, let alone tune it up when they buy one.So what does all that have to do with Festool? In 1985 I bought my first porter cable 6902 router... it said "proudly made in the USA" that router is still in operation today. I have never replaced anything on this router, not even a brush. In 2005 I purchased a new 6902 at HD... to date I have replaced the switch, the brushes, and now it needs new bearings. Is this tool still proudly made in the USA ? Last week I took the plung, literally. I bought a festool 1400 with a vaccum. The whole deal set me back $800+. After a week I am totally convinced I made the right choice. I strive to make pieces of furniture that last for generations, why should I not treat my tools the same?
To all those who comlain about HD and Lowes... you have the most important tool to fight their bussiness practices... it is right in your pocket. Don't buy their junk and they will stop selling junk.
I have bought a number of tools from Tool Crib of the North over the years with no problems. Do you think they are from another run from the big box stores or have I just been lucky.
Your story, similar as it is to other accounts, is one reason many of us walk around with the impression that the old, main line manufacturers have diminished the quality of their tools over the years. That opened the high end segment of the tool market, and Festool is selling to that niche very successfully. I think we will see others targeting that segment more aggressively in the near future.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yes, there is a niche to be exploited by upper end marketers but since most power tools are constructed of plastic and off the shelf parts anyway it's the "hands on features" that will separate one tool from another.Then of course, there is european mystique eminating from a plastic tool produced in the Black Forest, or some such. After all, everyone knows how important a "horn beam" sole can be to a common plane. .......... horn beam of German origin that is. In a similar vein, we must assume that there is also a grade of plastic that's only available to German mfr's.
It's the internal guts of the tool that matters the most -- since that's what supports performance, but also lends reliability.So far so good, as far as long-term durability and reliability is concerned with the Festool products. But the tools have not been around that long, so the jury is still out. Unfortunately, this business of quality is something that too many US manufacturers just don't seem to get. I was saddened to see the Ford Taurus is being discontinued, when not so many years ago, it was the #1 seller in that segment. At the time, the Toyota Camry was the #2. But over the years, they simply ate Ford's lunch when it came down to producing cars that were dependable and reliable.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
If you'll read my personal experience on this specific, praps you'll come away with a modified point of view. The post I refer to is a bit earlier in this listing.Anecdotally, since this thread is about tools of US mfr, I have a Milwaukee saber saw purchased in the early 70's and it remains as fine a tool as it was when new. The end cap on the motor housing is plastic but that's it. The remainder of the tool is either cast aluminum or steel, as in the base plate. Features? The head swivels in order to angle the blade. The base remains fixed. A neat feature that doesn't seem to be available anywhere in today's world, the same for all metal construction. I agree that internal mechanics, eg, gearing and etc has a bearing on quality, which brings us back to my earlier comments regarding the Festo RO 150. The short lived parts I was referring to, are of Festo's own design. It's not my intention to swell one mfr over another. I've tried most, at one time or another, and I do have preferences. Related mostly to effectiveness for the job at hand and reliability. On the upper end of hand power tools, sanding equipment specifically, I'd put Fein in the lead......... hands down. The Fein sanders have their schlockee elements as well but they're manageable. A tool that craps out before its time has an unmanageable defect.
I did go back and read your earlier post. First, you mention that the Rotex sander in question is 10 years old, and then you don't say anything about taking the matter up with Festool. I would urge you to do so, since that problem sounds like a crappy design flaw, and despite the sander's age, they might well stand behind it. I have dealt with their CS people 2-3 times, and they just about drove me crazy being so nice and accomodating (an attitude that I am not used to with tool manufacturers). In any event it would be an interesting test to see how they handled your complaint, which sounds very legitimate. I agree with you about the Fein tools; I have one of their vacs, as well as the Multimaster. However, they don't push their other tools in my neck of the woods, and as a consequence, I can't remember even seeing one of their sanders. Maybe they need to hire a new marketing person.................********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Yes, it is 10 years old but it could hardly wear a groove in the drive shaft while sitting on the shelf for most of its existence. 10 years ago, Festo was hardly more than a spot ad in most publications and was not to be seen in any catalogues. Now it's advertising is almost ubiquitous and it's fan base has grown. Never underestimate the power of marketing and hype. ....... and being a new kid on the block.BTW, when I can find a moment to call them, I will pursue a remedy for the sander. I do have some experience with them vis a vis their D style drill and a failed recharge unit. I'd also add that the drill is an excellent example of buying a feature ....... compact size ........ and finding it inadequate to the task of drilling in many applications. The chuck slips and the torque is low.
While I don't own any Festools, I am impressed with the loyality and satisfaction many owners express here. But one question - why is Festool have such a limited warranty? It's 3 years puts it in the league with most of the the other "cheaper" brands.
Hilti - makers of industrial tools like rotary hammers, screwguns, etc. - have a lifetime warranty with a max expenditure set for even routine maintenance. For the price of Festools, you would thnk they too would want to further distinguish their product.
I have a newer version of that sander and they include a spare ring and suggest checking it periodically especially if you are sanding stone and the like as it is more likely to cause the failure you bemoan. Sounds like they are at least learning... I bought it about 4 months ago. I agree that there are other sanders that have faster material removal. For me it is the idiotproof control and dust extraction that mattered in the end.
They must have changed the design, or you mean that they now include as a spare, the entire diaphragm/seal which holds the ring as a part of the diaphragm. In my case, the ring was more durable than the shaft and as a result, the shaft is heavily scored, thus allowing debris into the lower gear case. There really is nothing wrong with their seal so long as the inevitable grinding of steel on steel is accomodated somehow. Perhaps with a hardened shaft or an easily replaced fitting on the shaft.
I think that the change in design caused the seal to break down easier and now they include a spare ring because of this. Maybe not... Time will tell.
I agree totally with what you are saying the problem with the big box stores is all about margin we have the equivalent in this country they are not interested in quality tools wherever made and if you don't buy there crap somebody else will spend your dollars with serious tool dealers.You can make it fool proof but not idiot proof
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