Both FWW mag and the FWW website have articles on two “Jigs” for the router table. I find it interesting that these are being called “Jigs” since they are not guiding a tool they are guiding the material. The table is the “Jig” since it is holding the router. The two systems for guiding the material should be called “Fixtures” shouldn’t they?
Steve – in Northern California
Replies
A jig is a device used to maintain the correct positional relationship between a piece of work and a tool, or between parts of work during assembly.
A fixture is a device used to support work during machining.
Generally, in machine tool work, fixtures are static and don't move - they're bolted to the machine's table and hold the work in a "fixed" position (hence the term, fixture).
Of course with a machine tool, you have the advantage of a movable table in the X and Y axis, the quill is Z axis. If you have a rotary table, then of course you can rotate the fixture during machining while moving X, Y, and Z.
Most woodworking machinery doesn't provide that latitude of movement of a fixture (unless, of course you're using a CNC router or like tool). So, maybe you need a moveable fixture? Is that then a jig? Gee...I don't know...maybe - or maybe it's a moveable fixture. But, does this all really matter? And if so, why? Has the correct word choice made your work more aesthetically pleasing? Has it improved your accuracy? Or are you just nit-picking to prove you can?
FWIW, I think the difference between a jig and a fixture is pretty significant; not "nit picking"; Fine WoodWorking should know the difference. Wood working, like other disciplines, has it's own terminology. Inaccuracy can cause confusion; i.e. "dado" vs. "groove".....Thanks for the definitions, though.
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
"But, does this all really matter? And if so, why? Has the correct word choice made your work more aesthetically pleasing? Has it improved your accuracy? Or are you just nit-picking to prove you can?"
The woodworkers handbook that I should have referenced states that if the aid guides the tool it is a jig and if it guides the material it is a fixture. The pictures showed a dowling jig and a tenoning fixture.
Also, please try to refrain from insults when responding to questions on this forum. It only serves to offer a means for changing the subject of the thread and does nothing to answer the question.Steve - in Northern California
Maybe your handbook was wrong or the terms usage has changed since the book was written. Even the manufacturers of such tools differ in their terminology. I can't beleive it matters that much.
"Also, please try to refrain from insults when responding to questions on this forum. It only serves to offer a means for changing the subject of the thread and does nothing to answer the question."
Please send me your rule book for replying to you posts. If you find the questions insulting, then you have a low tolerance for questions. They were asked to make you think about why you made the post to begin with - and, apparently they did just that. Your post sounds like you want to point fingers, "nanner, nanner, naaaaannner." "Look who just screwed uuuuppp." What exactly did you think you were accomplishing with the post? Maybe I just missed the point. In that case, dumb me.
Steve
" Also. Please refrain from insults when responding to questions on this forum. It only serves to offer means of changing the subject of the thread and does nothing to answer the question."
Perhaps you should "sweep your own doorstep before you sweep someone elses". I was going to refer you to post you made to me Re-Wiring Delta Contractor Saw you sent to me that had nothing to do with thread. You basically accused me of being a lair concerning post Ii had mentioned about 75th Ranger Reg. VN. I went to get message # but OPPS..Message 31 has been deleted by someone? I replied as diplomatically as possible as I never attempt to offend anyone, especially a veteran. Those comment would never had been made to my face. I have 2 bronze stars and a purple heart and documentation available to anyone upon request as you probaly figured as I didn't get a direct reply.
Yes, I am a not an expert on electricy; but, I am an expert on ambushes. You set one up here and then walked right in the middle of your own. Trust me, ambushes can get awful nasty! You don't need to leave the inter-net. You just need to use common-sense and treat as you would want to be treated. You might discover it works extremely well!!
Sarge. OUT..
Sarge, get over it, VN was a long time ago. If you think that when someone asks a question its an ambush you need to go back to the VA for further treatment. Your paranoia is back.
By the way, how many years did you serve. I did 22 but I don't go around calling myself Senior Chief all the time. And don't think what you did was all that special, there were a lot of us doing crap that was a lot tougher and a lot worse. My favorite T-Shirt is olive drap with white letters on the front that say "FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY" and on the back is simply say's "BACK". Do you know what that means.
Get a grip, you're loosin it.
Edited 7/31/2002 12:27:09 PM ET by Steve Schefer
Steve be careful of who you are personally attacking. Some people are very sensitive and my leave Knots vowing never to return. You ask people to refrain from personal attacks yet here you are personally attack a fellow vet. Give your head a shake man.
Seems like sarge attacked Steve and more than once I might add. Give your head a shake. Steves the one who asked that the personal attacks not take place but when they did he stood up to the person rather than tuck his head between his legs and run away. Sarge is the one who brought his personal life into this discussion not Steve.
But enough of that crap. So what is the difference between a jig and a fixture. Fundamentally they are different but in the more common terms of the trade they can be considered to be one in the same. Manufacturers call a fixture a jig because market research says thats what most trades people will refer to it as.
A prime example is FWW using the term Jig and no one but Steve said anything about it. Fundamentally it is incorrect but as a term of the trade it is considered correct. Everyone who has responded, in one way or another has said this.
So Steve, drop it, its not worth the hassle, just answer the question correctly on your state contractors license test and forget about it.
Slim - Did you know that when I click on Steve Schefer's ID I get your member profile? And that when you logged in this morning at 6:18AM the ID says Slim Eball (SSCHEFER)? What's up with that? Speaking of "What's wrong with this picture"... I'm not trying to start an argument, but this has got to be one of the strangest threads I've read in a long time.
Be seeing you...
Edited 8/1/2002 4:56:21 PM ET by TDKPE
TDKPE,
Thank you, you have confirmed something I have suspected for a while now. It seems that Mr Schefer enjoys stiring things up.
Peter
TDKPE & ALL:
Thanks for your alertness. As soon as Slim posted you caught wind of somethings not right here. Profile and similar catch phrases ( forget that crap ). Sometimes when you smell a rat and got signs of a rat- You got a rat!
My apology to all legitimate members of this forum for using it strike back at someone for something personal. If I could have done it outside this Forum I most certainly would have. I am guilty of going outside the guidelines of thread to pursue a non-related subject; but, hopefully a purpose has been served. Will try to maintain integrity in future!
Again, I owe you thanks !
Sarge..
Sarge, please go read the I got hacked post. It explains as much as I can at this point.
Slim Eball/Steve Schefer-
"At 48 I have a lot I want to do and its (sic) not gonna happen sitting in front of a stupid computer." (from message #30 in this thread).
This from a person who day in, day out sits in front of his computer and issues an average of ten posts a day to Knots alone?! Or could it be that, because Slim Eball is posting, it is not really Steve Schefer sitting in front of his computer?
This behavior is reminiscent of the time not so long ago when someone posting as "Steve Schefer", sustaining some adverse criticism, vowed to quit and never return. That didn't slow down the flow of wisdom and insights from a new contributor bearing an uncanny resemblance to Steve Schefer.
Keep it up, Slim/Steve. You provide much-needed comic relief to the forum. For a real virtuoso performance, why not arrange for Steve and Slim to engage in a bitter argument with each other. No more than 10 posts per day each, though, please; we have our limits.
Edited 8/1/2002 6:17:27 PM ET by Donald C. Brown
Keep it up, Slim/Steve. You provide much-needed comic relief to the forum.
I, for one, didn't find the picture "Guess who" by SlimeBall/Schefer at all comic. I thought it disgusting, degrading and insulting and I'm surprised at the 2 approving posts -- although considering who the posters were I suppose I shouldn't be.
Best thread I've read here for a while. The 'Norm' and 'Artist' threads were/are pretty good too. Am I a pedantic hypocrite,-------- or am I a hypocrytical pedant? Slainte, RJ.RJFurniture
"I thought it disgusting, degrading and insulting..."
It would appear that Taunton agrees with you; a search on "Guess Who" turned up the thread, but "file not found" or some such rebuff is all that came up. I don't think an individual poster can delete the entire thread, title and all.
Be seeing you...
IANDG-
Sorry; my reference to comic relief in regard to Steve/Slim was poorly phrased. I was trying to convey the notion that people were laughing at his maladroit posts. Laughing at someone is still laughing.
No, there is nothing in the thousand-plus posts by Steve to suggest that he himself has a sense of humor. And, judging by the "Guess Who" one, he has no sense of human decency, either.
Don
Steve:
Deleted message 31 from that thread had nothing to do with answering a question. Obviously someone other than me found it offensive cause it is deleted. The seven word message had nothing to do with thread. You fired a shot without justification and now you have my reply. Everything that needs to have been said has been said!
I won't reply to romper-room discussion about T-Shirts and V A hospitals, etc. It pretty much speaks for itself!
Again, as I did in original reply- Thanks for the service to your country!
Sarge..
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jig [jig ] noun (plural jigs)
1. object in fixed position: an object with a fixed position and function
This has to be one of the dumbest threads I've seen in a long time. That's not to say your dumb Steve. Just that you've started a dumb thread. What if the jig holds the work and guides the cutter then what is it? For example if the jig holds a chair leg and it also guides a bearing of a flush cutter. But a better question would be who really cares all that much. Our time would be better spent in the shop than reading this. Terminology is good to know. The difference between a groove and a dado is important to getting the task correct. What you call your jig or fixture really won't change the out come of a project so it seems a little silly.
Edited 7/30/2002 1:22:57 PM ET by HEMPSTALK
The point is simple. Fine woodworking is just that. Its attention to detail and not accepting the mediocre. I've now found the reference in yet another book. This one fairly recent and by Nick Engler. In his book "Making Jigs and Fixtures" he states -
"For your Information - Although the terms jigs and fixtures are used interchangeably by woodworkers, there is a difference. Technically, a jig holds and guides a cutting tool, while a fixture holds and guides a workpiece."
-
I translate that to mean that most people don't know or care that there is a difference. Mr. Engler does and he thinks is important enough to clearly state that there is a difference.
Oh what the heck, maybe I should just quit trying to learn using books and start taking everything said on this site as the gospel for fine woodworking.Steve - in Northern California
Mr. Schefer-
Don't let them get you down. One man's nitpick is another's obsession.
I have a proposition that might interest you. My nephew is sole owner of a small publishing business that caters to specialist audiences. He issues quite a number of monthly magazines directed to small but surprisingly free-spending groups: transcontinental bus drivers, squirrel breeders, dwarf arc welders, that sort of thing. As you might imagine, the demands for precision in nomenclature are rigorous with such people.
My nephew is constantly on the lookout for people with a keen eye for minutiae and a love of nomenclatural precision to serve as proofreaders for his publications. Just this past month he had to let go two college trained men who nonetheless did not know, in a manner of speaking, their jigs from their fixtures.
You would seem to be an ideal candidate for such a position. Would you be interested? At the risk of seeming presumptuous, I would guess from the large number and the nature of your posts on this forum that your talents are not, shall we say, fully occupied at this point in the economic cycle. The job can be done with a computer from anywhere, so it would not entail a physical move.
If you are interested in pursuing this matter, please let me know, and I will put you in touch with my nephew.
Warm regards,
Willis
Chester,
If you meant that as humor, you have one of the driest wits I have read in a long time, and I would not want to be skewered by you.
On the other hand, if you are serious . . . well, never mind!
Can we spell p-e-d-a-n-t-i-c ?
Rich
And if we can spell p-e-d-a-n-t-i-c, can we also spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t? Good ol' Chessie "wasted" a fair amount of time chastising Steve for (in his opinion) wasting time on posts at Knots (see Paragraph 4). Can we spell PITA -- well, not on Knots, because they'll censor it. Sentiment stands though. My own approach here at Knots: read what I'm interested in, ignore what's boring. Simple, easy and efficient.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hmmm . . . he said enigmatically.
forest_girl-
I used to be able to spell h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t until my second grade teacher persuaded me that the correct spelling is h-y-p-o-c-r-i-t-e. Not to be p-e-d-a-n-t-i-c or a PITA or anthing like that.
Yours,
Willis
Steve makes himself look silly and one of the crusty old f*rts can't resist the bait. Like a softball hanging curve, there's only one thing a guy can do - whomp it outa the park. FG comes riding in to the rescue. As the KNOTS world turns.
Golly, gee. This place is swell!
Rich
I stand corrected -- was so distracted by all those dashes, oh well, no prize for me. Gonna go make sawdust.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Heh Heh!! Chester, nice one! I am doing a jig right now as I type!
Heh Heh!! Chester, nice one! I am doing a jig right now as I type!
Shouldn't that be a fixture you're doing?
Stanley - if "jig" is not P.C. should that machine be called a fixturesaw?
I thought they were now being called scroll saws (for the stationary units) or saber saws (for the hand held ones)!
It is my understanding that the dance however retains its name though I rarely see anyone do it.
Thanks for the offer Willis/Chester. However, this is my last day at work as an Information Technology Consultant and my second retirement. I have no real need or desire to work anymore and in fact, at the end of this day, I will turn off my computer and let my accountant pay the bills. At 48 I have a lot I want to do and its not gonna happen sitting in front of a stupid computer. Thanks again but no thanks.Steve - in Northern California
Good luck Steve!! And more on a personal note, I have become a little fixated over this fixture thread and am quite likely to develop some kind of fixation if I don't watch myself.... be good! RFW
Steve
Congratulations on your (second) retirement, and good luck in your next career (cabinetmaking, if memory serves). Do good.
Be seeing you...
Actually, Deleted message 21 of this thread was kind of interesting too. Steve thanked Dano and FG for their support, and then announced that he was only fooling with his first point. "As for the rest of you - Gotcha!" was approximately the way he phrased it. I guess he thought better of that strategy.
Steve, nobody's perfect, but even though they didn't use the correct term, I'm sure no one was scratching their head in confusion over the issue.
btw as far as nit picking goes, was there anything in that handbook to tell you that seasonal movement in 5/8" of q/s oak is not anywhere near enough to cause a joint failure.
when you get that business of yours going you'll find that when your talking to a client you'll sometimes have to use improper terminology to get the point across.
Stanley Niemiec, posting as NIEMIEC1 has it correct. The government associated shops have abandonded the term "jig" because of racial sensitivity. This is no small deal, it includes the Navy, the Army and the Air Force. Think pattern makers, cabinet makers and woodworkers that get a lot of training on these jobs.
Yes, our language does evolve...
Now, how do you pronounce "patina".
LeeLee Grindinger
Furniture Carver
I pronounce it pa-TEEN-a because it just sounds right. I know the dictionaries specify PAT-eh-na, but they're wrong.
It has been my understanding that the use of the term "jig" is no longer appropriate or politically correct because of its degrading racial connotations.
I was informed that fixture should be substituted instead when discussing various made-up assemblies for woodworking, etc.
And don't rag on me for this one -- I am simply relaying commentary that I have heard on more than one occasion and in several different situations.
ROFLOL.. This is too funny.
Hypothetical situation follows, this is not meant to offend or degrade anyone.
I ask two apprentices in my shop to automate some processes. At the end of the day apprentice 1 tells me he's made five jigs. Apprentice two tells me he's made 3 jigs and 2 fixtures. I check the work of both and find that apprentice 1 has actually made 3 fixtures and 2 jigs while apprentice 2 has made exactly 3 jigs and 2 fixtures. Next week, apprentice 2 finds out he has a bonus in his paycheck and takes apprentice 1 out for a beer. While having their beers apprentice 1 asks apprentice 2 how he can afford to pay for the beers. Apprentice 2 replies, "I got a bonus, not sure why, all I did was study and work hard".
You know what, it all boils down to one thing.. Accuracy.. How many of you complain about garbage tools being inaccurate. How many of you go out and buy expensive mitre gauges because you need to be within a certain amount of tolerance. How many of you have complained about one manufacturer or another because they don't live up to their reputation.
I cant disagree with the person who said this post was stupid, it is. Why should I have to even make mention of the error when they should be fully aware that their readership is so "nit picky".
Sorry Tim et al, it is an error. Slight as it might be, its still a failure to follow the golden rule, measure twice, cut once.
Steve - in Northern California
Edited 7/31/2002 12:47:16 AM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 7/31/2002 12:48:22 AM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 7/31/2002 12:49:18 AM ET by Steve Schefer
The Golden Rule is now 2:1? When did they change it from 5:8?
(Willis/Chester, i have all my teeth and i can lift 5 gallon buckets 'til the cows come home. I've got five acres in beans in the lower pasture and a Kubota tractor. Will you marry me?)
Splintie, I believe the correct term is Golden Section. You can read all about it here: http://www.mcs.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/R.Knott/Fibonacci/phi.html#golden
Steve - in Northern California
Since pedantry appears to be the order of the day, why didn't you post this discussion in Feedback on Fine Woodworking where it belongs?
You have a lot of manufacturers to write to as well since msnay of them refer to their fixtures as jigs. You mentioned a tenoning fixture as one example. Delta sells theirs as a tenoning jig.
Some dovetail jigs hold the work and you move the router while other hold the work and you move the peice over the bit mounted in a router table yet both types are called dovetail jigs.
I would guess that FWW is calling them what the manufacturer did. This languauge of ours does evolve.
Since you brought up mitre gauges. Are they guages, guides or fixtures. I don't know what to ask for anymore. Are you sure mitre guage is the proper term??
Yep, pretty much screwed that one up didn't I. What is that thing anyway. I've heard it called a guage, a fence, and instrument. I suppose the proper term would be mitre fixture. I almost got up and did a little jig there for a moment.Steve - in Northern California
OK here goes I am going to build some arch top cabinet doors for an entertainment center. I need to do the following :
1. setup my router with a trammel JIG to cut a radius on a piece of MDF to make a FIXTURE so I may run the sticking cut on my Shaper.
2. After making the fixture I must then set up my shaper to cut the copes on the ends of the rail that I intend to arch. So I must install the crosscut FIXTURE to my SLIDING TABLE in order to cope the ends of the rail.
3 I use vacuum disks and a vacuum pump to hold my rail to the FIXTURE. They are fast and accurate and speed up the process for me.I set the rail on the FIXTURE and draw a line defining the arch. Next I rough cut the arch using the line as my reference. But now I am confused. Is the line a JIG or A FIXTURE??? I am Sooooo confused.
By all this maybe I need to take up a new profession.
Quantum physics has caught my fancy in just the past couple of minutes. Joe
It looks like Slim/Steve has been in hiding since post # 1077 several days ago (the same number of posts for each "identity.") What a childish thing to have done!
On another forum, a member did the same thing. He had been involved in a furious flame war with a lot of people. He logged in one day under a "changed" name and pretended to be a vociferous supporter of his previous identity. The new posts went on for an hour or so at which point people noticed that the old log-in name no longer existed in the postings. By changing his name the forum software updated ALL occurances of ALL his previous posts with the new name! (In Steve's case the old posts still bear his old (real?) name.) The reaction was uproarious.
The really stupid thing that Steve did, though, after assuming his new "identity," was to have acted like such a butt-head on other threads (Gallery).
Silly boy, doesn't know how to re-enter the Forum as a totally new "entity." Too bad!
Rich
Nitpicking is a noble professsion. What would all those people on TV and politician do without it? Giggle.
Dave
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