Replies

1. 
   VeniciaL | Nov 10, 2003 06:05pm | #1

   Bob,

   Better water and alcohol resistance? You have only two choices, varnish or lacquer. If you have the spray equipment and the experience, my recomendation is lacquer. If not, any varinsh will give you the properties you need. I recommend a polyurethane. They are beautifully self leveling and very easy to apply. Both will go well over the shellac.

   VL

1. 
   bobpowers | Nov 12, 2003 02:58am | #6

   Thanks for your input.  Do you have specific name brands to offer?

   I spent many years as a representative of a major paint/finishing company, and ran my own painting and decorating company for a number of years.  Through all of this (more than 50 years!) I have learned that products change, and the substance I used 50 years ago might not be appropriate now.  I am looking for a product that meets the alcohol and water criteria, and also rubs out well with pumice, steel wool or some such stuff.  The last time I used polyurethane. probably 10 years ago, I couldn't rub it out.  Don't tell me things have changed!!!

   Regards,

   Bob

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Nov 12, 2003 04:33am | #8

   Hi Bob,

   For durability, varnish (including the more durable polyurethane varnish) is the best choice. There's a good article on the properties of different finishes at this link - Selecting a Finish. There's a link inside the article with a table comparing the characteristics of the finishes.

   Short oil varnishes can be rubbed out well, though they can be a little more difficult to apply. One brand that comes to mind is Behlen "RockHard Tabletop Varnish." It's a short oil varnish that rubs out well once cured. Use the Behlen thinner with this varnish; it's a blend of solvents that work properly with it.

   Paul

1. 
   bobpowers | Nov 14, 2003 06:35pm | #11

   Thanks to all for your advice.  I took the suggestions to heart that Behlen's Rockhard would be a good choice.  However, no local dealer handles Behlen's, and I prefer not to buy finishes by mail order.  That meant to me that I should look for a varnish something like Rockhard.  Unfortunately, manufacturers seem to want to conceal the ingredients of their products these days, but after looking all over town, I (re-) discovered McCloskeys Heirloom varnish.  It's an alkyd base material. After applying about four coats over the Watco, I'll see what I have.

   The best suggestions to solve my problem were those about smelling the piece to tell if it had been cured.  I had never tried that, and it's a great idea.  I have always used the fingernail test, but found it to be unreliable on occasion in that the final coat may have skinned over hard enough to prevent the fingernail from digging in, but leaving previous coats just soft enough that they wouldn't rub out.

   Who says old dogs can't learn old tricks?

1. 
   VeniciaL | Nov 14, 2003 06:42pm | #12

   Bob,

   Manufacturers have NEVER revealed their recipes.

   Regarding McCloskey, I have always found their products to be excellent. I think you will be pleased with that varnish.

   VL

2. 
   bobpowers | Nov 15, 2003 06:11pm | #13

   I have put down three coats of the varnish so far with good results, but the proof of the pudding is in the rubbing out, whenever that is!

   There was in fact, a time when manufacturers indicated on the label the percentages of ingredients, so that you could compare the percentages of solids, thinners, and fillers in a varnish.  This enabled you to determine the sheen, hardness, flexibility, etc.  Just another way to determine short oils, long oils, etc.  But then again, this was 50 years ago.

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 16, 2003 06:17pm | #16

   >>McCloskeys Heirloom varnish.

   Bob, that should work well. It's a short oil varnish that dries hard.

   I used to use it quite a bit but if fell out of favor when they began playing with the solvents to meet VOC requirements. They tout themselves as a very "green" company. It seemed every time I used it, it handled differently.

   The last time I used it, I used it as a thinned wiping varnish. I probably thinned it 50/50 and it worked fine. I haven't brushed it in a number of years. You may find that thinning it 10-15% will make it flow out better. Try it on some scrap to get the feel for it.

4. 
   bobpowers | Nov 17, 2003 01:39am | #18

   You're dead on about the thinning.  I made a few sample pieces, and the un-thinned product was like trying to spread chewing gum.  I didn't check the percentage of thinner to varnish that I ended up using, but it was pretty high.  Four coats gave me the buildup of coats that I was looking for.  I'm just waiting for it to cure now which is progressing rapidly.  The temperature in my shop is about 66 degrees with 35% relative humidity, so it shouldn't take too long.  The longest I have ever needed to wait was with Tried and True Original, and that took about a week

   Thanks again for your good advice.

   Regards,

   Bob

5. 
   BobSmalser | Nov 16, 2003 10:58pm | #17

   I'da treated it with lye first to deepen the color...and probably left it unstained...cherry has a character of it's own as sulight changes it's color.

   And I vote for Behlen's Bartop or another high-solids interior varnish.

   I don't like the plastic feel poly has in comaprison...traditional varnishes are warmer in color and have a better feel to me.

   See if your local paint dealer can get some Bartop for you.  Rubs out beautifully with pumice and rottenstone.

   An example that's served a growing family for 25 years:

   http://pic3.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/2594265/36790863.jpg

   Edited 11/16/2003 4:19:53 PM ET by Bob

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Nov 12, 2003 05:37am | #9

   Poly, by it's design, is difficult to rub out. The reason polyurethane is incorporated in varnish is to make it more scratch resistant. Scratching is what "rubbing out" is. Because of its scratch resistance, it is difficult to get a consistant and even scratch pattern on poly varnish.

   As Paul has said a hard, short oil varnish like Behlan's Rochhard is the best varnish for rubbing out. Be sure to let it fully cure. Keep smelling it. As long as it emits an odor, it is still curing.

2. 
   Manchild | Nov 11, 2003 09:12pm | #2

   I just used some General Finish, wipe on, Arm-r-seal on some fruitwood.

   It's a polyurethane. It builds faster than the Watco. 4-6 hrs. dry time allows you to recoat it faster that watco also. They recommend leveling the finish with #oooo steel wool between coats. It dries while you are putting it on if you don't hurry. Not like Watco. Tonight I'm going to level it for the third time and cover it with a wax tomorrow.

   I like it because it is still a hand applied finish. It's not perfect but I like that.

   
   

   ---

   Edited 11/11/2003 1:14:41 PM ET by david

1. 
   Gretchen | Nov 11, 2003 09:53pm | #3

   Don't wax that soon over your poly. It needs to cure--several weeks or until there is no odor.Gretchen

1. 
   Manchild | Nov 12, 2003 01:38am | #4

   Thanks! Is there any way to speed things up? The objects are small and I could warm them up a bit.

1. 
   JohnWW | Nov 12, 2003 02:14am | #5

   David,

   Be careful "warming things up", it doesn't take much heat to excessively dry out the wood and create problems with the joinery that wouldn't ever happen under normal conditions.  Finishing shouldn't be rushed, rushing almost always leads to problems.

   John W.

2. 
   Manchild | Nov 12, 2003 05:43am | #10

   They were down in the cold basement shop so I put them on the not too hot waterheater.

   Here's apic of them. They are for a childs piece. They can rotate to look in different directions.

   
3. 
   joelj84 | Nov 15, 2003 08:23pm | #14

   What happens if you don't wait?

1. 
   Gretchen | Nov 16, 2003 03:04pm | #15

   The wax may smear the finish.Gretchen

3. 
   PlaneWood | Nov 12, 2003 03:07am | #7

   I would use no shellac on the top and several coats of wipe on poly.  Spray on the last coat if you have the equipment.  You might get fish eye if you spray the 1st or 2nd coat.   Sand lightly between coats with 400 grit garnet paper then wash clean with paint thinner.  Silicon Carbide paper can cause fish eye.

   I use Deft brand poly and thin the first couple of coats about 30% with paint thinner.  Wipe on with a lint free soft cloth till visible surface residue disappears.  Buffing a little more with the same cloth is ok.  Let dry 24 hrs, lightly sand,  and do it again.  A good buffing with an electric buffer 5 or 6 days after the last coat can bring out a nice luster.

   PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
   PlaneWood