Fellow woodworkers,
I’m curious, what’s your shop time worth.
I see myself as a rather accomplished hobbist woodworker. Guests in my house are either the most polite liars, or they are genuinely very impressed with both my designs and craftsmanship. I’d go so far as to say some seem awe stricken.
I don’t really persue selling my work actively, but occasionally I get inquirys about a particular piece and how much I’d charge for it. I usually price my time at about $25.00 / hr. which seems reasonable to me – actually a bit cheap, but I don’t get any takers. I won’t be selling my work for much less, that’s for sure. But, am I over pricing my time? What do you think?
So lets talk. Home shop woodworkers – Who’s making what money selling what types of pieces and on what scale to what markets?
Edited 12/19/2002 12:10:06 PM ET by jdg
Replies
You pose the question of the century! It varies by locale certainly. In some areas 25.00 and hour would seem exhorbitant while in other areas it might seem amatureish. I've told several of my customers that I will be raising my rates to 35.00 per hour after the first of the year. I don't mark up my materials at all but I do charge windshield time at the same rate plus .50 per mile.
The end result/cost of my product is about the same as the local bigger production ready shops (not home depot stuff) because even though I charge less per hour, it takes me longer to get the job completed. I'll never be rich monitarily this way but it works well enough for me to live comfortably.
I think $25.00 an hour is quite reasonable if you are a timely person. How much can you can accomplish in an hour would make a difference in the value of your time. You have to consider the investment in your tools and your consumable products, sand paper, glue, nails , screws, saw sharpening, router bits, all those things not included in a bill of materials. You have to pay for these things and you should be reimbursed for them.
In the early 70's I worked at The Houston Chronicle our carpenter there charged $20.00 an hour then for outside work. He had all the extra work He could do. He could do carpenter work and also woodwork. He charged $100.00 per foot for cabinets, that was a pretty standard price then. In the early 80's there was a house being built across the street from where I now live, I inquired how much the cabinet's cost. The contractor said $200.00 per foot. I haven't inquired lately but I don't think it has gone up very much. These prices included materials. Most cabinets are prefab now.
Another thing to consider the time you spend traveling to and from the job site, the trips to the lumberyard, the planning, your vehicle cost. This is overhead that you wouldn't have if you weren't doing the job.
There is an old saying in poker playing, "them that draws to straights and flushes will wear a straw hat to the Christmas Tree" ( meaning you will lose money and can't afford a winter hat) Same goes for your work, you can be a hero and not be paid a fair price and make a lot of friends. The prices I hear locally are $40. to $60. and hour but the customer usually don't know because they are charged by the job not the hour.
If you need some guidelines go to your local Home Depot, Lowes, etc. A lot of their charges are posted like hanging a door $150.00, charge per foot to install cabinets. That may help.
Good Luck, God Bless, and Happy Holidays
les
Id would bid it as a total price(T&M) for a piece not by the hour, so If a person want something Id figure it all up including mark up and profit and give it as one price. It could be also your giveing a price to "friends" they never want to pay what your worth. I was building stuff for a friend giving them a cheap price.(enough to cover materials and supplies).They want a aweful lot of these little display shelves painted with milk paint I mean they want alot..... They complained about every little thing. Then I found out they were re-selling them to their neighbors and making some pretty good money so becareful with "friends" . Its easier to do busiiness with strangers
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
People who claim they're interested in how much $$$ are just blowing smoke. They're not really interested at all in you building a bookcase @ $25.00 an hour when the "same" bookcase cost $29.99 at Walmart. They don't understand or appreciate what custom work is and how much effort is put into it versus mass produced items that look the same as far as they know. Of course, they'll be polite and have kind words for your work, but nobody's going to be buying anything from you anytime soon.
In the future, when asked, "how much to make this piece?" Just smile and say "Oh, I charge $75.00 an hour plus materials, how many would you like?"
GC
Sheesh, when did woodworkers become so jaded? Some that is! Peace, my brothers. The world is a wonderful place.
Thank you all for your comments. I intended to open a discussion. I'm glad to have such interest.
As for me - having started this thread, let me add a bit. I'd like to sell some work at a price that is enough to make it enjoyable to produce the work for that price. But, I've sold so incrediablly little and never a piece of furniture. As for my work, I put rather pricey repro hardware on pieces. When a piece calls for glass, I run down some antique glass and usually do a leaded work. The lumber I use is always pieces that I've carefully chosen for its purpose. The designs are very painstakingly thought out to maximize asthetic appeal. The craftsmanship is not acceptable to me unless it is excellent in any circles. The work all carries my signature with it's obvious "hand of the maker" character. However, rest assured, if I never sell a piece, it'll be ok.
As for the people who see my work: This would be largely people who can afford the cost of my work.
As for the materials and shop consumables, I don't fail to add those to the prices that I charge.
I just don't understand why I don't get takers. I mean, with the apparent amazement of the guests in my house, and the quantity of guests that we've had, I'd think someone would be buying. I guess the reality is that I'm not selling actively enough.
I think the question should be rephrased: I'm not trying to compete with production shops here, and I'm not selling plywood cabinets. I'm selling one of a kind (or nearly one) custom pieces. The question: How do you home shop guys market your pieces, what are you selling, and how much are you able to get for your time when it's all said and done? To be clear, this means after all direct expenses, but not after any indirect expenses such as taxes or other like deductions. Let us know what you're selling and how you're selling it.
Under the assumption you do high end, one off pieces, which appears to be the case. There's going to be alot of competition for the disposable dollar; for, let's say $6000 a potential client could buy a fine chest of drawers from you, or spend that money on a flat panel TV set, or an Italian business suit. Just because people can afford it doesn't mean they're going to buy it. I said it before, talk is cheap. You'll get alot of lip service from people about your work, "WOW, I'd really like a fine craftsman like you to build some pieces for my house, " etc, etc, But when push comes to shove, custom furniture is way, way down on the list, regardless of their tax bracket.
You're also in competition with antiques, for that same disposable dollar. An old antique oak desk, nothing special, maybe 75- 100 years old might cost $1500 - $3000 at an antique store. How much would it cost for you to make the equivilant? $25.00 an hour at 100 hours and you're already at $2500, not including materials. And with most people, the antique is considered superior. (correct or not)
GC
Without wanting to sound rude..I'm assuming you want to make money... and not just stroke you're ego!!
The former being the case get examples of your work into the circles travelled by the more wealthy in our society...fine jewelery stores...art galleries even top-end car show rooms!!! These and other similar establishments have the people with the money....remember they want and can afford, unique style statements that set them apart from the rest, capture their imagination and compliment their 'individual taste' with custom designed work to their 'exacting specification'....It'll take some time, require a good business plan, dedication, enthusiasm and innovative thought, but you might just end up making a living!!! Then again there was that guy advertising how he made $000's a day in FW a month or so back.....maybe he's got the answer...
What you lack is salesmanship.
Salesmanship is the differance between a table at near retail (mass produced rate) and custom prices.
You gave a hint when you commented on the degree of effort you go thru in order to make a project look just the way you wanted.
Future customers don't care what you like, they want what they want. It may be the most revolting piece of dog crap to you, but it's their dream.
Next time instead of showing the effort you went thru ask them what they would like you to do. A set of bookshelves? Ok sure, Here's my near retail prices. You may evan offer it below the price at the local discount store prices (don't worry, you'll make plenty for your efforts)
Ask them for a deposit and actually collect a check for 1/2 of the amount. (that elliminates the looky loo's) now get out and order form and write up one bookshelf made with MDF/ stain to look walnut size XbyX.
If you want I can make that out of real Walnut for only $100.00 more... would you like the corner joints done in a standard staple & glue, connection or for just $80 more I can put half laps in it. Oh, you want those hand cut dovetails? That's real expensive maybe you can'tafford to spend $350 dollars for those.
Anyhow you get my drift, you've in a polite way educated him why your work is worth the price you ask for and he has a story to tell his friends why he bought a custom made piece rather than a cheap knock -off.
It's salesmanship pure and simple. If you can't do it, find someone who can. That is the differance between working for wages and running a successful business.
My wifes cousin was talking to me the other day about cabients. i told her she had nice cabs in her kitchen(theyre solid pine made by the houses previous owner). She said that she would like something different that she felt the wood was cheap. I told her that if she went to a place like the Home DilXX she would be buying cabs with less than 3/4 construction on the sides some time 3/8, i told her they look nice but thequality wasnt there. She wanted to know whats the difference. I told her look at the glass she's drinking out of (a plastic ,i have young kids) and picture a glass made out of christal, they both hold fluid and do the job but one is quality and the other well isnt. I think she understood.
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
I've been recently doing a bit of thinking on marketing & I've made a few observations.
1. If you frequent a high end furniture store, you will se a bunch of nice furniture that doesn't get sold every day. If you have a bunch of equally nice furniture in your home/shop/storeroom, consider the lack of door traffic who will see your furniture & maybe want to buy. Increase your exposure. Don't really expect to sell your spec furniture. People see it ready built & expect to buy it for the price of something similar in a furniture store. Use it to show what you can do. The money is in custom.
2. When someone asks what it will cost to build xxxx, explain to them if they can find what they want in a furniture store & would be satisfied with it's size,shape, design,& quality, they should buy it because you can't compete with price. However, if what they want must fit a certain spot, be of a certain style, a specific wood, or very well made & they can't find it in any store, then you will make it for them. Explain that it will cost more because you won't be able to use the savings of mass production, but it will be custom built for them & it will be exactly what they want. Sell! Sell! Sell!
3. Consider repairs. Damage happens. This could be a foot in the door. Remember, though, you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. You have to just walk away from some crap. try to make that into an opportunity to sell. Explain to the owner why it is crap & how you could build the same kind of piece & make it not crap. Be very diplomatic & if the customer is really attached to the piece, even crap can be repaired.....for a price.
4. If you can do chairs, people never have enough. If they have a set of 6, they want 8. Fat Uncle Albert sat down too hard on one of an heirloom set of 8, they need a replacement. Aunt Tilly left one chair, that has been in the family for generations, to a potential client & she would like the rest of a dining room suite to match.
Just some thoughts to ponder.
Good luck,
Paul
Edited 12/21/2002 2:23:51 AM ET by Paul
Very true Paul, I've given prices before for built- ins..the client will say I can go to XXX and get it cheaper. Ive told them to go. I then ask why did you come to me. they'll say well they dont have one that fits exact or is the right color ect..Then I say well I guess my price is just about right then. Thats the approach I take. I tell them they need a TV cab that is 45 5/8(example) wide and if they can find it great if not well Im available .
At Darkworks Customer satisfaction Job One..Yea yea were all over it , I got my best guys on it.........
How is it that people will pay 100 to 200/hr to a shrink, and a highly skilled craftsman they think 20/hr is too much. I was bidding on a job to build 5 cabinets at 20/hr and I told them if it took me less time then I'm figuring, I would only charge actual time. I lost the job. Go figure. I will not lower my shop rate, if anything it will go up. Good luck with your woodworking.
Here in CA's high rent, SF Bay Area, cabinet shop rates range between $50-130/hour. Though most of my work is contracted or commission projects, I work T&M at $105/hour. The shops with CNS machines charge out work at the high end of the scale, but their contract prices and mine are about the same. I work slower, but don't have to pay off lenders for the $60,000 machines. I work T&M on stuff that takes a day or less, and on project change-orders which I predict will cost less than a grand.
Trimmers and cabinet installer prices range from $35-65/hour depending on competency. I trust my work only to the more competant of the sub-contractors.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.
Namaste,
Gary
http://gwwoodworking.com/
Edited 12/19/2002 1:59:20 PM ET by Gary
Edited 12/19/2002 2:02:25 PM ET by Gary
Time is worth alot, especially shop time. If you are figuring how much to charge for shop time remember that not only do you need to charge for your time, you also need to charge for the shop.
Think of yourself as an employee of your business, you should probably charge $25.00+/hr. for your time (pay yourself) and then also have a rate for shop time something like $15.00 to $20.00/hr maybe more, I don't know what your shop is like.
Whenever you turn on the lights in the shop, run your saws, heat your shop, dull your blades, and put wear and tear on it. That doesn't even mention mortgage/rent, insurance, disposable materials i.e. sand paper, glue etc. You have to pay for the electricity, heating, machines, tools, blade sharpening, on and on. Don't forget to charge for these things.
I have seen way too many small businesses go under because they forget to charge for all thier expenses.
Matt-
I agree with Matt's comments, don't forget to charge for the shop. I've been trying to figure this out myself and had concluded that for my home (part-time) shop I would shoot for around $40/ hour ($25 for labor and $15 for shop). I don't specifically charge directly by the hourly, but rather bid based on an estimated amount of labor. It is tough to build someone a sideboard or hutch and say it will be $40/hour plus materials. I like to figure materials and then # of estimated hours times $40. You have to get good at estimating the time that it will take you to complete a certain project. I think that this is especially difficult for home shops or hobbiests that don't do this every day. Most all of my pieces are one of a kind so estimating time is difficult.
Anytime there are add ons add it at your hourly rate.
Aaron
I live in an area where shops charge in the $25 - $35/hr. range. I however charge nearly three times that and sell to folks outside my area. No one who wants me to work for them ever asks what it will cost. Those who do already know it's probably more than they would want to pay. I usually provide folks with a very close price prior to my actually pulling the materials and beginning the job. If they fall over I wait for their recovery and acceptance of the price or just thank them for their inquiry. Most of my clients know that they can by furniture similar to mine at upscale furniture suppliers. They also know that my quality will surpass that of the furniture store. Oh, I also add about 40% for shop costs, insurance and retirement. We've all got to give up working someday. Maybe then I can build a couple of fun projects for myself.
JB
Ok, I am seriously fired up now! Why is our trade valued so much less then lets say a plumber or electrician, heating and air conditioning person or, auto mechanic. Our work lasts so much longer and require's unseen varietals that would knock the socks off any hands on person out there.
Get real! Start charging what your worth. I recently did a job cutting interior doors. It was an older townhouse where the owner had hardwood floors put in. Now the norm is 70$ a door to trim , but in this case I charged 20$ a door to cut it with an equal 3/4" swing front to back and put it back in place (floor was out of level!).All 70ish masonite and pine framing interior construction. 6 doors in an hour and a half then gone.
. .Pike. .
I think the reason our time/work is undervalued by some is because the average hack with some skills can put something together that looks reasonably decent to the average person. This fellow may display in craft shows, flea markets, etc. and do quite well selling at "reasonable" prices.
However, reasonably decent is not craftsmanship or art. Many of us at this forum try our best to make the very best we possibly can. Those who value that level of craftsmanship are willing to pay for it.
Believe me, we aren't alone. My Dad's been a plumber for 45 years, and for every tradesman out there, there's at least one clown with a torch and hacksaw who thinks he can do the same job as a pro. (And they complain about his prices too.)
Jeff
$25.00/hr?
Less $6.00, federal taxes
Less $2.50, state and local taxes
Less $1.00 FICA
Less $3.00 depreciation of tools
Less $2.00 space rental or space cost
Less $0.50 liability insurance
Less $9.00 material costs
Total salary? $1.00/ hr
Hmmm, let's try $50.00/hr
...........
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Wonder if I could work in "Retirement Savings" somewhere??
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Pike,
I think the reason craftsman woodworkers/furnituremakers are of lesser value than other trades is simple because one cannot go to wally world and "buy" a plumber like one can buy a set of imported particle board bookcases. Plumbers and other trades have to arrive on site and do a task and thus really have little (relative to custom woodworking) competition in the vast consumer market for their products and services. Thus, maybe your thought is kinda like comparing apples to oranges. Unfortunately, US furniture makers are competing with huge market forces and the economics of scale. Any american consumer can buy furniture made overseas out of american materials for a fraction of the cost it would take for most of us to make even a similar piece of junk. Because this reality has been going on for so long and people tend to 'vote' with their checkbooks, I find it hard to establish a realistic market niche for american craftsmen and women. This could change though if some government leaders would stand up and really plug the notion of buying locally. I wish some of those old patriotic days were still viable here in the US.
sawick
Re: the difficulty of estimating the price of projects and commissioned work...
I just read an article/interview about Christian Becksvoort (sp?) in the current issue of Furniture & Cabinetmaking. In it, he said that he keeps an index card on every one of the 500+ pieces he's made over the last several decades, on which he makes note of the materials, basic design information, and hours of labor (including steps in the process).
With this historical data, he is able to accurately estimate the costs of new commissions.
Sounds like a good idea. I mean, how tough can an index card be?
DavidLook, I made a hat -- Where there never was a hat!
jdg,
I admire your innocence and curiousity in asking such questions but be prepared. Like sex, politics and religion, any discussion of money will tend to bring out a lot of controversy among people.
I have to hand it to you- you opened up a big can of worms!. Perhaps a better cash-based question might be: OK fellow woodworkers, how much do you honestly net each year? How much does your spouse net? Do your kids go to private schools? When and where was your last vacation? and so on. Such replies may give a realistic sense of how difficult it is to make a living in the self employed woodwork business. Some years ago I read an article from the Bureau of Labor and Statistics that said carpenters were among the lowest paid and lowest status of all the trades. This all makes me kind of sad because I feel that WW is a noble and worthy occupation. Too bad this modern eceonomy does not reward same.
Ethically, I really struggle with the whole dollar thing. It feels like wanting to get famous. That is do I feel comfortable making $15/hour building stuff for local middle class folks or am I driven by the capitalist imbedded success driven greed to make big bucks by only working for the wealthy who don't even wince at a shop rate of $100/hour?
Right now I have a storage space full of high end furniture which (to make a profit) I need to sell in the $1000 plus range per piece. All these pieces were built I admit on pure speculation rather than market analysis yet that is the fundamental risk of business: 1. is there a need? 2. can I fill it? 3. is there profit? I have learned painfully that mere ability to produce woodwork does not success make. I think I need to find an agent or someone more canny than me to do the marketing/selling aspect.
Namaste' sawick
Estimate time and materials for one of your completed jobs.
Factor in the cost of your shop.
Now, ask yourself if you would pay that much for your project.
Next ask your friends what they would pay.
I think you will be surprised at the true costs of a one man shop!
It's pretty tough to compete with a custom shop running production equipment and cad cam machines.
Heck, they even get the materials a good 30-40% cheaper than you.
They have $7.00 labour for the $7.00 tasks. You don't.
Unless your product is art when it's finished your just another pretty face trying to get in to the chorus.
Enjoy your hobby.
Bob
I once visited several small (1-5 man) woodworking shops in Kentucky while rambling through the country on a 2 week vacation. Each were master craftsmen turning out absolutely beautiful furniture. I remember coffee tables being in the $3000+ range and dining tables being in the $10,000+ range. Not your average 'Wal-Mart' type of merchandise. Also, this was 20 years ago. All the shops were older, well established, business's.
All wanted you to sign contracts to 'commission' a piece, with earnest money up front. Delivery times were 1 year, or more, out. One place said they were booked for 3 years.
Now, that says a lot about their quality and their reliability, but most importantly it says a lot about their clientele.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Someone made and opened a nice Pandora's box in starting this thread...
Some of my thoughts on this thread:
1. People will pay you per hour what YOU truly believe in your heart to be the amount your work is worth.
2. You cannot win a price war with the Ikeas, Pottery Barns, Walmarts and etc of the world.
3. The Ikeas, Pottery Barns, Walmarts and etc will never win the quality war with a fine craftsman.
4. There are people out there that know the difference (and are willing to pay for it!).
5. If you are truly passionate about what you do, people will notice, admire and reward you for it.
RR
exactly. potential clientele can be judged based on one thing in my book. if they are willing to pay, upfront, a design fee based loosely on the final sale price of an object, they are worthy of attention. this usually amounts to 500 to 1000 dollars for a large piece, and at least a couple of hundred dollars for anything smaller.
when i started this business, i used to give it away, thinking that my hands created something that would be an heirloom or something so glorious, and that was my reward. after x number of pieces down the road, a fellow realizes his value, and acquires the skill to charge the right price.
merry christmas
Ricky -
Well, it is diffucult for a beginning woodworker to establish a positive reputation and to gain recognition.
Before you can request deposits for a 'commissioned' piece, you must have established a reputation among your clientele. That takes lots of quality work, time, salesmanship, and hungry days.
I used to do commercial cabinet (wham bam thank ya mam type) work for a group of architects. The first couple of jobs I submitted bids. After that, they just gave me the jobs without the bidding process. The architects were building office buildings and renting office space to their clients. After the renters moved in, they (the renters) would 'contract' me to build additional furniture for their office. That arrangement gave me all the additional work I could handle and greatly helped me widen my base of clients.
During the hungry period, it helps to have something else to fall back on. I worked 8 hrs a day for an oil company, then worked 48 hrs a week doing woodworking. Did that for 15 years and still managed to raise 4 kids and keep the same wife! Even took a vacation or two!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
enjoyed your response. ditto on the hungry days.
today i needed to make a picture frame for a friend and decided to rough out my half laps with my trusty circular saw, freehand, instead of setting up the router and jigs. it took less time than i would have thought, and a person would have to seperate the joint to find out how i did it. it was like the old days when i didn't have arouter and the homemade jigs to go with it.
are you interested in antique tools?
I ain't saying, but I've enjoyed watching the thread, jdg. I'm not a home shop woodworker, and I count my hourly overhead at about $10 an hour (for a nominal 40 hr. week) so a $25/hr. rate seems a bit on the low side.
All those taxes to pay, and in the US your own social security as well as the employers contribution, and what about medical and dental insurance, and do you like the idea of taking a couple of weeks off each year, and any thoughts regarding a pension, and who's paying the house mortgage, electricity bill, and the food to eat?
A charge of $25/hr. looks like you'd be paying yourself about minus $10 per hour, ha, ha. Slainte.
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