I was hoping to get some feedback on a question I have after reading the articles in the current FW. Garret Hack and Asa Christiana both make reference to using hand planes in situations where it would have never dawned on me to employ them. Christiana, in his article about equipping a shop for $5K mentioned the functionality of a No. 4 bench plane saying it was ‘the fastest way to prep a board for finishing after it leaves the planer…’ and Hack who commented he cleans up his scribe lines after assembling HB dovetail joints with a plane. In both instances I would have automatically reached for my random orbit sander rather than my No. 4 bench plane. I am new to woodworking (about 3 years) and have never had a lesson or any expert guidance so I am very much learning through trial and error, mostly error. Woodworking is like music – the more you learn, the more you realise you don’t know. I have read a lot about the benefits of using a scraper/ plane versus sanding but perhaps I am leery about potentially ruining a nice piece of stock with my limited planing skills. <!—-><!—-> <!—->
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Any comments or advice on how often or in what usual situations planes may be used as an alternative to hours of sanding would be greatly appreciated!<!—-> <!—->
Replies
GWB,
After you run a board through a surface planer the surface is not perfectly flat. When you push the board through the spinning blades it is not possible for the blades to hit the entire surface of the board evenly so you will end up with very small ridges or waves. You can't see it but you can feel it. With a well tuned plane you can knock those ridges off very quickly and easily. Your first pass you will feel/hear the tick, tick, tick,... as the plane blade clips the tops of the ridges. After a a few passes you will have the board flat. Be sure to start from one side and work you way to the other (left to right) in a consistent way so that you don't work one area more than another. Try this on a few practice boards, it is very satisfying to use the hand plane - therapeutic almost.
Good luck,
John
Thanks John - I hadn't realized that. I have a delta benchtop planer which has seen heavy use and I guess I hadn't yet picked up on the idea that the planed boards still need a bit of a seeing to afterwards. I look forward to the therapy session!
Love to see folks on the verge of the hand planing precipice. Don't look down as you're about to fall ... fast down that slippery slope.
A very pragmatic and no-nonsense introduction to hand planes can be found in the planes chapter of Aldren Watson's Hand Tools - Their Ways and Workings:
http://www.amazon.com/Hand-Tools-Their-Ways-Workings/dp/0393322769/sr=8-1/qid=1166021684/ref=sr_1_1/102-4637673-7113751?ie=UTF8&s=books
My advice to you is to buy a vintage (1900-1935 era) Stanely 4 or 5 (they're relatively cheap). Sharpen the blade with a very slight camber using just finger pressure as you work the blade ont he stone (or sandpaper in the scary sharp method). The idea is to make it so the corners of the blade are not leaving tracks and instead the shaving is starting at the middle of the blade. If you do that, take a fine shaving, and plane with the grain, you're unlikely to ruin any stock or project.
Planes are great for cleaning up/fitting drawers; fitting cabinet doors; smoothing all surfaces; four squaring stock; and on and on.
Grease the skids and hold on tight, you're on your way!
Samson - thanks for the tip. You are talking about basically rounding off the blade corners? I have a new veritas #4 which I am anxious to put to good use and I will try this.
No, not so much rounding off as that just means you'll get a skid mark instead of a crisp track mark. What I'm talking about (and this is common knowledge to plane users and has been since the invetion of the plane probably so I'm not imparting my own personal insight or anything) is sharpening the plane in a way that develops a slight (and I mean slight - not anything you can easily notice by eye) camber across the whole width of the blade. It's easest to accomplish with a honing guide, especially one of the cheap $12 eclipse style ones with the narrow wheel - as you draw the blade backwards over the sharpening surface (waterstone - sandpaper on a flat substrate - etc.) do a few strokes with with your fingers pressing on one corner, then the same number of stroke on the other, then a fe more with your fingers pressing closer to the middle, but still to one side and them the other, etc. It's much harder to describe than do, but if you have any sharpening experince, I'm hoping the point is clear, the result will be a slight curve on the blade because you've ground a tiny bit more from the outer areas and left the middle a tiny tiny bit proud. Also, remember to flatten/polish the last bit of the back of the blade before you start on the cambered bevel (an edge is where the two sides meet, and you want both sides in good shape). The best test of whether you've done it, it to put the blade in the plane, adjust the blade for depth and orientation (lateral adjustment lever), and take a test cut. If the shaving strarts at the middle (rather than an outer corner) you're done. If not, even after trying to adjust the lateral leveral a few ways), go back to the sharpening process and do some more work. Hope this helps.
Edited 12/13/2006 11:09 am ET by Samson
Samson- Nice job describing the proper method of "rounding" a plane iron. I've never heard anyone use the term "camber" and it is a much better descriptor. I use the method you describe but would not have been able to articulate it as clear and concise as you. I have seen quite a few "rounded" plane irons that look like they were overworked on a grinder :-)thanks for the good post
dave
Hey, thanks for the nice words. As I said, I wasn't presenting anything new or mine, just passing on received wisdom.
I too have seen a lot electric grinder damage in my day - mostly on chisels and gouges. With the exception of Tormek and the like, traditional electric grinders are not easy to use well in my expereince, even the slow speed ones with white wheels seem to move too fast and work too aggressively. They're good for hoggin off metal if you are making wholesale changes to a blade, but they are not the best for the stuff where you just want to remove subtle bits and refine the edge (at least for me - some grinder experts out there with a fine touch no doubt exist). I like diamond plates for shaping and waterstones for sharpening. A grinder is too much like a belt sander - in an instant you can accidently remove material you didn't intend to and ruin a surface/edge. A sanding shoe for the belt sander or jig for the grinder can tame the 'lectric beasts somewhat, but the stones are better in the same way planes are usually better than belt sanders - they get you there nearly as fast, with a nicer finish, and NO DUST.
Hmmm. Whether to pull out the ROS or the #4 (actually, I like the 4-1/2).
That all depends on what floats YOUR boat. Either method will knock off the power (or hand, for that matter) planer ridges and flatten the surface. A plane or scraper will leave a "cut" surface, a sander will leave an abraded surface. One is not "better" than the other. Some prefer the former, some the latter. For some, it depends on the wood and/or the look they are striving for on the project. Some simply hate the noise/dust of the power sander and get off on the sound of shavings whispering from a plane. Some don't want the hassle of keeping a plane sharp and tuned, prefering instead to simply change the paper on the ROS and go at it.
One of the joys of this pastime is that there is rarely one "right" answer, leaving a lot of room for indivuality and experimentation. Why not try both ways, evaluate the results, and decide which way you like better and why? Then, let us know.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Mike,
Wise words, if I may say so.
I too have come newly to planes after years of reducing wood with an RO or belt sander and recognise that both have their merits & drawbacks; but both can achieve a flat, smooth surface which (once finished) are indistinguishable from each other. (Cue Luddite howls of denial).
That said, I have yet to get a surface with which I am entirely satisfied with plane and scraper alone. So far I have felt the need to do a final light sand - although a handsand is sufficient.
Of course, I am a plane and scraper newby so it may just be my poor skills with these novel tools that causes that last bit of micro-tearout here or there. But most of the books I have that describe the smoothing and finishing of furniture call for this final light sanding, even after expert planing and scraping........
Planing does have the edge on RO sanding as an activity, though. It is somehow viscerally satisfying to create thin ribbons of wood; whilst even a Festool RO is essentially a noisy buzzing thing (and you don't even get to see the dust, if the vacuum is connected).
Lataxe
GWB
I can get about 97% of the way there with power tools - hand tools especially planes, take me the rest of the way. One area they are useful is if you have run some difficult wood (figured maple, for example) through the planer, and gotten some tearout. It will be easier ( and more pleasant) to take the surface down with hand plane than grinding away with the ROS.
I first realized their value when I discovered how a shoulder plane would get tenons to fit the way they were supposed to fit, easier than any power-tool.
GWB,
Just make sure that you dont go back to the edge tools after sanding. There will be small pieces of grit from the sand paper on your ROS left in the wood that will very quickly blunt the sharp edge and score the plane sole.
Dave
GWB,
I'm a hand-tool-only hobbyist woodworker. I really dislike sanding, so I use hand planes and scrapers for preparing all of my wood; I sand only when I absolutely have to -- very rarely.
For woodworkers that use both power and hand tools, planes come in very handy for things like removing machining marks and for fitting joint parts (example -- tenons into mortises, etc), and trimming. I find it much faster, easier, and more accurate to prepare edges for panel-making with a hand plane than it ever was (for me) using a power jointer.
IME, the most important thing affecting the quality of surface and cut in hand planing is the sharpness of the iron. If it is sufficiently sharp (what "sufficiently sharp" actually means will vary somewhat, depending on what you are doing), then you will normally get very good results, even if your planing technique happens to need a wee bit of "improvement."
Other things affecting the quality of planing are the tightness of the mouth opening, the flatness (or co-planarity) of the sole, tightness of mating surfaces on the frog/casting, chip breaker/iron, lever cap/chip breaker, etc. While those items are probably somewhat less important than iron sharpness, they do add up, and getting them "right" will help get you closer to a high quality planing result.
Some additional things include planing technique -- skewing the plane for nastier grain, planing from several directions around knots, switching to a higher or lower angle plane, your ability to read the grain, etc.
At the very least, by using hand planes, you should be able to cut down on the amount of sanding you have to do, as well as do fitting and trimming that would be very difficult -- and potentially unsafe -- with power tools.
For more detailed information on what you can do with hand planes (and other hand tools) take a look at some of these books (most available via Amazon, Astragal Press, and/or Cambium Books):
Hand Tools (Aldren Watson)
Old Ways of Working Wood (Aldren Watson)
The Handplane Book (Garrett Hack)
Choosing and Using Hand Tools (Andy Rae)
Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools (Mike Dunbar)
Traditional Woodworking Handtools (Graham Blackburn)
The Woodworker's Guide to Hand Tools (Peter Korn)
Classic Hand Tools (Garrett Hack)
Hope that this helps some.
Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Thanks for all the tips. Everything suggsted is stuff I have neither heard nor read and wouldn't have thought of. The book recommendations are great and provide, at least, an excuse to build more bookshelves(!) and the warning about cleaning the wood surface after sanding to avoid damaging the tool is great as well.
This was my first post ever to FWW Knots and my view on what I can accomplish with my planes has just taken a quantum leap as a result.
I am grateful for the support!
Greg
GWB, I am glad that some of the info was of use to you. That's why we all here -- to trade info and learn from each other.
Welcome to Knots! It's great to know that you received useful information on your first posting.
Best wishes for a safe and happy holiday season!Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
"This was my first post ever to FWW Knots and my view on what I can accomplish with my planes has just taken a quantum leap as a result."
So keep posting- it's a good forum.Philip Marcou
pzgren,Thanks for the tip! I've had the Watson Hand Tool book for so long that a white bookmark inserted and the edges of the dust jacket are dark yellow! And that in a closed barrister bookcase.I don't think I ever more than flipped through the book. On further examination of the hand plane section I'm going to take it to the shop and for starters adjust all the frogs and cap/iron gaps. That'll take a while.Then I'll see if my 'planing' is improved.My blades are sharp and the bottoms flat but I ever really got the hang of using hand planes to near perfection.John
pzgren,I just resharpened and re-set two #4 planes, both I've had over 20 years. One a plastic tote Stanley and the other a Record. Both cut like magic through antique Southern yellow pine, very nice, light shavings.I'll try them later on some other woods to see how they do.Thanks again,John
Hi All,
I was able to put the suggestions to use and ran the smoother over some doors I am refinishing. After cleaning the surfaces with 80 grit on the belt sander (they had dried slag from varnish remover dried to them) the No 4 smoother really brought out the grain. Amazing results and the shavings were tissue thin. Much better than the ROS. I still need to work on Samson's cambering suggestion (not easy with a veritas MK II honing guide which is an excellent sharpening system otherwise) but I am converted to the simplicity and functionality of the hand plane.
From a balmy Bermuda December evening.......
Greg
Glad to hear it's working out between you and your plane. Planing is a nice task when everything falls into place with the set up.
As for the Mark 2:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=54181&cat=1,43072,43078&ap=1
Looks like you need to place an order. ;-)
GWB:
Lee Valley now sells a camber roller for the MK II. It is specifically designed to put a cambered edge on smoother blades.
Lee Valley now sells a camber roller for the MK II. It is specifically designed to put a cambered edge on smoother blades.
Being nit-picky I suspect, but I would say it facilitates a camber should one desire one. I also use it on straight blades and chisels. I'm lazy and don't desire to swap out the lower carriage just for a few tools <g>.
Actually, the center flat area on the cambered roller LV sells for the MK.II honing guide is about the length of the roller on the MK.I honing guide.
Take care, Mike
Further to what Mike has said the width or shape of the guide roller has little effect-if you keep in mind that you apply downward pressure at the blade tip and not on the whole guide-after all it is a guideto maintaining a consistant angle.
So to get your camber you merely bear down on first one side then the other side of the blade tip.
There have been posts in the past where people have said that honing guides like the Eclipse and similar have "worn grooves in the middle of the stone"-which proves my point.
Ofcourse if one is using a diamond plate that is another story.Philip Marcou
Veritas actually sells a cambered roller ( the bottom is curved instead of flat ) for the MK II.
Check it out... by just leaning some gentle pressure to either side of the jig as you sharpen you will get the very subtle difference in height between the center and the corners of the blade that you want. By the way, you bought an excellent plane! If you haven't yet, you may want to experiment with closing the mouth down to just a hairline- This will prevent tear out of fibers is you have wood with reversing grain, such as tiger maple. In fact, this is a great test to see how good your sharpening/ tuning skills are. Get a piece of tiger maple and try to get a glassy smooth finish on it. Be warned... this can be difficult even for experienced hand plane users, so don't get frustrated: ask questions if you have any troubles. I still remember when I finally got my old stanley #4 to pass this test. You are lucky to be
starting with a superior tool to begin with.
John,
It's good to know that the information was useful to you. For me, there's nothing quite like some fluffy-thin, translucent shavings or a freshly-planed board: looks, smells, and -- especially -- feels great; nice silky-smooth, glass-like sheen on the surface; sure beats a room full of sanding dust.... :-)
For comfort (and looks), I'd suggest replacing the plastic handles on your Stanley with some nice wooden ones, especially if you're going to be doing any regular or extended planing. It will save wear and tear (and a few blisters) on your hands.
I really like both of Watson's books, and Blackburn's book, as well; lots of good information. The three of them are among my favorites.
And, last but not least, best wishes for a safe and happy holiday season!Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James,Thank you and a blessed Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and yours as well.Funny, the last thought I had when I put the Stanley away was that I should make a new tote.I'm going to go out and tune another half dozen planes this morning.Thanks again,John
James
I was going to recommend he replace those plastic totes as well, but I see you beat me to it! :-)
Fine post, laddy. Fine post!
Jeff
Jeff,
<<Fine post, laddy. Fine post!>>
Thanks, mate! <Hoistin' a pint o' Sam Smith's "Pale India Ale" to ye!>Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
FYI:I started making a new tote this afternoon and its already roughed out. But I expect some difficulty in drilling the hole. So if anybody had a trick, please advise. I'm planning to use a doweling jig to align the drill bit.Also, just a an aside, I glued up two pieces of walnut to make the width of the tote and I inadvertently failed to match them as to grain.Not to worry, its good enough for practice for my first tote.John
Pins, there are one or two dodges which will ensure that you drill the hole true and at the correct angle which is 64 degrees.
The pictures show that I have not cut the shape out before drilling and I have marked the line of drill which now can start at 90 degrees to the wood, and the line enables me to check against a bevel gauge which has been set at 64 degrees.When you have drilled the counter bore and the through hole you can then cut out the shape- but be sure to leave some "ears" so that you do not have blow out when you rout.
You can do the drilling with a drill press and table vice. If you don't have a vice you can make up a wood angle plate and clamp the wood to it.
It pays to start these holes with a center drill or use a center point drill. I use a pointed rod to ensure the drill starts on the place marked.
The pictures show the method of centering, a centere drill, counter bore drill which is just a 12mm twist drill which I have ground to have a center spur and to drill a flat bottom, and the 1/4" drill.
Ofcourse there are ways to skin this cat but I have settled down to this way , getting consistant results.Philip Marcou
Good advice Philip, thank you. I should have asked before I cut-out the shape. But knowing that the hole is at 64 degrees will help me align it to the bottom of the tote.Next time, and that I think will be soon! I will follow your directions.Thanks again,John
Philip, I need to replace a soft tote on a #2 - A Sargent #407 made for Fulton-aka Sears a long time ago. The plane saw little to no use, cleanen up nicely and works very well. Your six photos are a wonderful Christmas present for all of us amature wood butchers, tecnique , grain orientation and tools. Many thanks and Merry Christmas, Paddy.
ps, what was the wood in the picture?
Edited 12/25/2006 10:28 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT
Paddy, that timber is Rhodesian Teak (Baikia Plurijuga-spelling may not be right). Grows in Southern Africa on sandy soils . Massacred for rail sleepers and pit props in the past so now the decent stuff has long gone.There is a big furniture industry which re-cycles those sleepers and makes furniture from it and other timbers from far and wide: timbers such as Jarra Wenge Afzelia and Imbuia. Yep-they even brouhgt Imbuia from South America for use as railway sleepers.....
What timber are you to use for your tote?
And talking of grain orientation-it make sense to me that the grain should be running vertically, not horizontally, but I have never seen a Stanley type tote on which this has been done. I ran it vertcally on the tote of the very first smoother I made, and saw that for mass -production going vertical would pose a short grain problem at the foot and top edge, but as far as seasonal movement goes it would be better in the vertical-surely?Maybe I will be soon departing from the traditional , again.Philip Marcou
Philip, my first thought is a left over from a slab of old very straight grain cherry that I just acquired to make the faces for a LV twin screw tail vise. It looks to be from the first quarter of the log, plain sawn, 16 x 2 1/4 that I dressed to 10 1/2 after clearing the bark and sap wood. It was 109" long and I expect that the log was in the 24"+ range in the middle given the sharp slope of my bark. It's at 10% moisture according to Mr. Wagner so I cut two vice faces dressed to 9 1/2 x 29 x 2 1/8 by planner and a hollow ground planner blade on the TS. (didn't move the jointer to the new digs yet) and still have a 30"+ piece left after losing the short checks from the ends.
I am still finding new wood sources here in east TN. I may go back to this fellow and see if he has any shorts of something better as he has ALL of the local hard woods at very good prices. I will get back to work on this when I go back in Feb. Thanks again for the info on drilling. Peace, Paddy
If you have a drill press, you can make a jig with a sloped face by using the plane with the threaded rod installed, to match the angle needed. Or, place a bevel gauge on the plane and match the angle and do a test piece. The jig can have a pocket on it or one side (so you can clamp the new tote in place). Or, if the drill press table tilts, you can clamp a stop on it and drill it that way.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks for the tip. I got it figured out and it fits like a glove, very solid.John
GWB,
When should I use a plane?
Obviously, when a car or train won't get you there fast enough!
Lee
Surprised that no one has mentioned another usual result of sanding - less than flat surface.
If the piece is a panel for a door frame or the top of a carcase it's not usually an issue. Even with careful sanding patterns, it's easy with a ROS to have higher and lower spots if two or three grits are used, but in the above cases, so what. However, on a small wall cabinet for a customer that was to receive molding around the top, after careful ROS sanding the sides were slightly but noticeable out of flat when fitting the top molding piece, enough that I had to scribe the molding to match the cabinet side. With good planing technique on the cabinet side this is much less likely to occur.
Second experience, in the following week, was a large family dining table in sugar pine. Careful ROS use kept the glued up surface sufficiently flat over the length and width, but the significant difference in hardness between early and late wood in the pine left lots of slight dips that could easily be felt. There was nothing wrong with the ROS or technique - the wood characteristics just weren't compatible with power sanding. Less than five minutes with a jointer plane and the top was truly flat again.
Time saving I think has already been mentioned. After the jointer and/or planer, a few passes with a smoothing plane can be done in a fraction of the time to ROS through perhaps 150 and 220.
The key factor for planing however is the plane itself. I've diligently followed how-to articles on tuning up old planes and always had less than perfect planing. If a primary objective is to work with vintage tools, they are available at often reasonable prices, and there are lots of tune-up instructions around. If however the primary objective is to complete woodworking projects you might decide that tools need to work well with a minimum of maintenance each and every time. I've never heard anyone suggesting using a ROS or table saw or other tool that needs constant fussing and fiddling to try to make it do its job. Please all the old tool afficianados save everyone's time and Taunton's drive space - if you like to use old tools, I encourage you to continue doing so, and don't reply just to argue, as I'm not arguing with anyone. If using old planes gives warm and fuzzy feelings, by all means continue doing so. Over the years I tried several times to use hand planes more. However, even with several detailed several hour tuneups the old Stanleys (and a new Record) have never given dependable good results. So I always had to drop back to power sanding to get projects completed and into the customers' hands.
However, if getting top quality dependable results from a tool every time is the primary objective, I can't say enough about the Lie Nelson jointer plane I purchased a couple weeks ago. Out of the box with a bit of honing it gave perfect shavings, just the kind of results woodworkers expect (and demand) from their other tools. It was a very expensive purchase, just like a table saw, drill press, and many other tools. However, it works, as advertised. And over just 4 or 5 projects I fully expect it to pay for itself in time saved. I regret not being able to have several reconditioned planes in my arsenal, but they just didn't work well enough. Can't wait to pick up the LN 4 1/2 smoother this afternoon to save even more time (and hence work more profitably) on the projects under way.
Edited 12/15/2006 10:21 am ET by DonStephan
Gosh, I wonder how all those fantastic antique pieces where made? Those poor suckers had to use those Stanley's or (shudder) woodies! Man, I just can't imagine how they did it without Lie-Nielsens??
So, you've tried to use vintage planes and couldn't make 'em work. Must be the planes.
Edited 12/15/2006 10:40 am ET by Samson
Don, Sorry to hear that you are not getting the results you want from your vintage planes. There are a bunch of vintage Stanleys (along with a couple of other brands) in my plane arsenal. After tune-up, most of them give near-LN quality results with the original iron, but a few wouldn't and had to have the iron (and chip breaker) replaced. Once that was done, they worked fine, giving a very nice quality, silky-smooth surface; you may want to give that a try (if you haven't already) before you give up on vintage planes altogether..... <<The key factor for planing however is the plane itself. >> Just to be argumentative ;-) I have to disagree with you a wee bit that the plane is the key factor. While the quality of the plane (and plane set-up) certainly influences the quality of the finish on the board, it is my belief that it is the plane operator that is the key factor (just as it is with any other tool). A knowledgeable hand plane user can make even a relatively mediocre plane perform pretty well; the question, obviously, is whether making that mediocre plane perform well is worth your time and effort (and $$$); for some -- yes; for others -- no. Conversely, a plane user that just doesn't have a clue is not likely to get good results, even from a Holtey..... It's merely easier to get good results from a better-quality plane. (Please note: None of this is intended to imply that you don't know what you're doing or are unknowledgeable about hand planes.) <<I've never heard anyone suggesting using a ROS or table saw or other tool that needs constant fussing and fiddling to try to make it do its job.>> Well, in fact, table saws and other (power) tools (even the top-of-the-line ones) do need at least an initial tune-up/adjustment, and usually need periodic maintenance, adjustment, and tweaking to get and keep them in top form. You see that in the comments in the Power Tools forum here on Knots all the time..... And then, there are all of those complicated jigs..... ;-) Anyway, congratulations on your LN jointer and (soon to be newly-acquired?) #4½. They are fine tools that are a pleasure to use.Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!Tschüß!Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!James
Edited 12/17/2006 11:45 pm by pzgren
James, you're a far better man than I.
Ever use a jointer (the big electric kind)? Talk about a tool that can be a tempremental beast in order to avoid snipe and other imperfections!
And you're absolutely right about the table saw. I hope everyone checks their fence alignment at least from time to time as pinching a board can lead to kick-back.
And a bandsaw can take quite a lot of tuning, especially if you want to resaw wide boards well.
Oh, and ever chage planer blades and try to get that sucker working factory fresh again?
Am I the only one, or do other people's SCMS seem to need realignment from time to time?
For those LN hand plane users, I've heard some good news: when the blade dulls, you dont's need to buy a whole new plane; LN makes replacement blades you can buy separately; but of course, you have to flip the lever cap and turn a screw, not mention set the chip breaker and possible the frog and depth adjustment screw to install it. Ah, forget it, on second thought, they ought to just buy a complete plane. (I figure this is how so many LN's end up on eBay - so caveat emptor: those eBay LN's most likely contain dull blades, and will require substantial work to bring back to working condition, if that is even possible.)
"when the blade dulls, you dont's need to buy a whole new plane; LN makes replacement blades you can buy separately . . . on second thought, they ought to just buy a complete plane."
Huh? Is this tongue-in-cheek or sumpin? Oh. Wait a minute . . . . I get it now! "Hey dear, I need to buy a new table saw -- you know, that SawStop I was lookin' at? The blade in my Craftsman is dull! <G>
Brilliant!
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Yep, my tongue's always pretty close to my cheek, Mike. I was kidding around that even LN planes require some tuning and maintenance, as well as ribbing the folks who like the convenience of LN planes coming "pre-tuned."
;-)
Samson,
Too funny!!
<<Ever use a jointer (the big electric kind)? Talk about a tool that can be a tempremental beast in order to avoid snipe and other imperfections!>>
Yup, I've tried to get a straight edge and a flat face with an electric jointer....there's a real good reason why I traded it in for #7 and #8 jointer planes..... Me and that electron-&-wood-munching monster just did not see eye to eye..... ;-)
<<For those LN hand plane users, I've heard some good news:.....when the blade dulls, you dont's need to buy a whole new plane; LN makes replacement blades you can buy separately; but of course, you have to flip the lever cap and turn a screw, not mention set the chip breaker and possible the frog and depth adjustment screw to install it. Ah, forget it, on second thought, they ought to just buy a complete plane. (I figure this is how so many LN's end up on eBay - so caveat emptor: those eBay LN's most likely contain dull blades, and will require substantial work to bring back to working condition, if that is even possible.)>>
Dang! Wish I'd thought of that.... Now I know what to do with my dull-ironed LNs. (I'll make sure that I put "dull iron" in my item description.....) This is just too cool: like tradin' in yer car every two years....ya can git a new one with the latest do-widgits on it....now I have the perfect excuse to get the latest LNs with the newest and bestest features..... Thanks! ;-)Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Don
I tell you what. In the spirit of the holiday season, I suggest you take your old Stanleys, throw them in your car, and take a ride out to my shop. We'll sit down for a few hours, and I'll show you how to get those babies singing just like a Lie Nielsen.
I've got a full working set of LN planes, as well as a full working set of Stanley bedrocks, and you can test drive one after it's counterpart on my bench. I doubt you'll be able to tell the difference in the shavings or the work.
Perhaps, if you don't want to take the drive to Crystal Lake, Illinois, you should try to discover for yourself just what the hangup in your old Stanley's may be. Now, without a doubt, it is definately an investment in time to tune them up. But, there won't be any "constant fiddling" to get them to stay working. Once they're tuned, they pretty well stay that way for quite some time.
I'll keep the heat on and the ale cold, just let me know when you're on your way.
Happy holidays,
Jeff
Jeff, caught your post on planes. I want to purchase my first plane. Been watching e-bay auctions at 4 and 5 Stanley along with 110 and 220 planes. What would a beginner use in your opinion. Bob
ohiobob
It really depends quite a bit on the type of work you're doing. I would recommend both a block plane and a #4 or #5 as a good place to start. I'd get a good book like Garrett Hack's The Handplane Book, and learn quite a bit of good info on what each plane is used for. More importantly, that book will teach you how to tune a plane properly in order for it to be used effectively.
Jeff
Don,
Despite some of the sarky remarks by the handtool fetishists, I think your post is the epitome of what a good post should be. Primarily, it's based on your own considered experience and not on a lot of theory or religious fervour about an Old Thing.
My experience of record planes was as yours - much more time spent fettling, fixing, realigning and so forth than planing wood - which tore out anyway unless it was straight grained and well-behaved.
However, buying quality planes (Lee Valley and Marcous in my case) has made a vast difference. They work as intended and stay in tune for a long time. (Still acquiring skill in their use, of course - that old experience thang again).
I never tried fettling a better quality old plane - I suppose if that's what you enjoy it's fine; but why do them fettlers always want to convert us to their creed? I suspect you have to be baptised in a bucket of rust remover, anyway. :-)
As to the problems you had with RO sanding - I find a hard pad on the RO makes a huge difference. I have sanded a lot of pitch pine (what you call sugar pine I think) with no differential "scooping out" of the early wood. Also, edges are never rounded over and dips are the result of sanding too much in one spot rather than the squish of the pad.
Improved RO sander technique will, with a hard pad, maintain a flat surface as such, as the tool itself is not then doing the damage.
Incidentally, it is possible to smooth with a plane too much in one spot, as I have discovered through....experience. Again it's me, not the nature of the tool, that is digging the dips - but incorrect plane usage is just as possible as incorrect RO sander usage; and a good plane is not of itself The Answer To Everything.
Those tools - I like them all (except the crap ones).
Lataxe, hosting variegated tool memes in his wetware.
Come now, Lataxe. While you may agree with Don's overall thesis that buying high quality planes is a good way to go, do you really believe that his post "is the epitome of what a good post should be"?
Let's review his points and their implications. Rather than take a "live and let live" approach whereby he admits that he could not get vintage planes to work as well as he likes and that he is happy LN's are available as they are manufactured to high tolerances and pre-tuned, Don asserts or strongly implies:
- Vintage planes inevitably produce results inferior to a LN
- And those who use vintage planes, therefore are either too poor or cheap to afford LN's and must make due; too stupid to use LN's; are willing to accept inferior results; and/or have a sentimental fetish for old tools that renders them in denial regarding the poor results.
These staements are not only provocative, they are garbage; they're not true. And further, "considered experience" includes recognizing when poor results are due to the skill of the workman as opposed to the tool or technique.
You agree with Don despite admitting: "I never tried fettling a better quality old plane." Well, I'll tell you from significant experience that, as with other quality planes, vintage planes "work as intended and stay in tune for a long time." Jeff Heath (from what sounds like considerable experience) says the same in his post above.
You and Don seem to see vintage plane users are some kind of fanatic fettlers, who get off on lavishing hours to bring an old plane to a working condition that is inevitably inferior and that such fiddling must continue constantly as the plane is used. While I haven't used any Record or modern Stanleys or Annats or Kuntz etc, and concede that this may well be true for them, it is absolutely false with respect to Stanley's made in the late 19th and first third of the 20th centuries. They may be restoration projects if they have not been well maintained, but this has nothing to do with the quality of the tool - indeed, a well used dull LN left in a damp garage of a few years or splattered with paint etc. would likewise require some cleaning but you wouldn't suggest that such initial efforts suggested the tool was crap or couldn't be made to sing again.
Samson,
I am a naughty chap, poking you in the fervour-organ like that. I confess to this naughtines and admit that I am not qualified to judge the merits of a fettled plane of the "good ole boy" variety.
Like Don, I have no quarrel with old plane fettlers; only with their fervour. It is an admirable thing to renovate an antique, but this is not The Way for everyone, especially if the antique is judged with adoring rather than purely practical eyes. (Oh, there I go again, sorry, sorry). :-)
Seriously, Don is nor dissing old plane fettlers in his post (he specifically says so). He is just relating his experience that he cannot get success himself via such fettling, as he can by buying a new, well-made plane.
You lads that like the old stuff are to be admired in your ability to get the best from good tools of yesteryear. But you do need to know that hours of fettling is not for everyone and does not automatially make you Righter than the rest of us. You should "live and let live" (to use a phrase I just read somewhere). Also, stop with the ultra-sensitivity!
There are many paths to a nice cabinet.
Lataxe the irreligious.
Edited 12/16/2006 4:26 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
Like Don, I have no quarrel with old plane fettlers; only with their fervour.
I am not vintage-plane proselytizing here. I couldn't care less who else uses them. Heck, the less folks who want them, the cheaper they'll be for me. In addition, I am no fanatic. I use what works and what has come my way as I've made my way in woodworking as a hobbiest. I have hand tools, power tools, old tools and new tools, and many of each category I "adore." I own several LN products - block, shoulder, LA jack, saws, etc. They are all subperb. But so are my vintage Stanleys, by any objective measure. Do you find it objectional that I tell you the truth as best I know it from my experience - that old Stanley's work well, and can for others too? Is that too fervent?
But you do need to know that hours of fettling is not for everyone
Never said it was.
and does not automatially make you Righter than the rest of us.
The only thing I'm right about is that vintage Stanley's are not inferior junk that requires hours of fettling to make work or constant fiddling to keep working. And that's enough for me.
Edited 12/16/2006 6:35 pm ET by Samson
Hey Samson,
As one old tool user to another, how does one know when he's gone from "fettling" and started "fiddling"?
Reminds me of the story about the wealthy old boy sitting in church beside his wife. The preacher was on fire. First he railed against the evils of strong drink, the broken homes it caused etc. "Amen, brother, that's preaching!" Next it was gambling, the hungry children at home while the wastrel bets his wages from that week. "That's the way to preach a sermon!" But when the pastor got to greed, the wealthy man grabbed his wife and rose to leave. "Come on Martha, he's quit preachin' and now he's started meddlin'!"
Ray, who sometimes fiddles with his whiskers
Ray,
As I understand it, fiddlin' with whiskers is not illegal nor even immoral (except in certain States and congregations). As long as that's all your fiddlin' with, like.
As to fettling planes, I wish I had the patience. I admire those who add engineering to their woodworking.
Of course, I ride a bicycle quite well, which most woodworkers do not as the dust has got to them. But is cycling anything to be proud of? I fear not and the local motorists agree, going by the honks.
Lataxe the useless.
The thing that seems glaringly missing from the argument, Lataxe, is that you really only have to fettle them once. Then they're users. Here's a Millers Falls plane that was covered with rust and fettled five years ago. It cost $20, and that was only because I insisted that the owner take some money. In the five years since then, it has planed most of the wood that most American furniture is made out of very well. I use it just about every day. Hickory and Pecan might give it a little trouble and I have to make sure it is honed very, very sharp for those. Otherwise - very little to no tearout,.... There are times when I might switch to my CLifton smoother, but mostly I use this - it is light and predictable. Did I mention it cost $20? Good luck, Ed
Ed, much to Mr. Latax's (known to me as a true gentleman of the old school, without fault-well not much-) dismay, I too scored with a MF #4 1/2 for $28 +s&h as it had a seized frog adjustment screw. I solved that problem with PB blaster in two hours and cleaned her up with a Hock iron. She had very little use and is now a very very fine smoother. In my new digs in East TN the Hickory is so plentyfull it's used for tobacco stakes so I have a ready (read cheap) supply. When the grain gets squirley I go to MY Clifton #4 1/2 and if it gets real nasty the LN #5 1/2 york, after that it's scraper plane time!
I had ment to ask Mr. Latax if that rabid cricket ball game was the one that moved the Oxford lads to button down their shirt collars so they wouldn't look so shabby on the playing field?
Merry Christmas, Paddy
Boxing day test a the 'G' - England all out for 159 on the first day
My wife called me in for tea early and I missed Warn get his 700th wicket
Oh, and the table is going well - laminated glue up seems to have worked with help form the chaps here.
Excuse me but could you say that again in english? :)
To bad we call what we speak over here on this side of the pong english, I think maybe we should call it American or something.
Doug Meyer
Paddy,
Them big boys' games are a mystery to me. I got over bats and balls at age 8 and threequarters. :-)
What I always want to know is, what does it signify to knock over the flagpole in the hole, or whatever it is they are doing? Why can't they be content with riding their bicycle, which allows one to see a bit more of the world whilst developing important thrusting muscles, to a significantly pleasing degree?
Then there is surfing, a return to the sea and our evolutionary past as a mudhopper or other fishy being......
Of course, I am being a bit facetious. I know that it is Very Important to Beat The Other Chap(s) - although I have quite forgotten why.
Lataxe
Sorry Paddy... but it was polo, not cricket that led to the button down collars. It seems that the points of the collars had an unfortunate habit of blowing up into the faces of the horse riding players. A habberdasher in New York thought to make the collars button down, to avoid this- and Ivy Leaguers throughout the northeast breathed a collective sigh of relief. Brooks Brothers still sells their "polo collar" button down shirt...Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Let me interrupt this opera buffa with a few serious observations.I have both antique and modern handplanes. My most used plane is a Bailey #5 jack, ca 1892; my most used finisher is a LN 4 1/2, ca 2005. Each is instructive.I bought the #5 for $35. It was (and is) in very good condition. I spent 3-4 hours fettling it- flattening the sole, filing the area around the frog and throat, flatenning, sharpening and honing the iron and chip breaker. The result was a very fine plane for a few dollars and a few hours work.In addition, I became very comfortable tuning and sharpening all of my planes and irons, and this is a good thing. But several things went into this: I learned as much as could about old planes before buying one. I bought the plane from a reputable dealer, in good condition. I would be hesitant about buying one off eBay- especially if I were a novice and unless I really trusted the seller. In addition, I knew what to look for to make certain that the plane was worth working on. There are many used planes out there with cracked castings, made up of polyglot parts or from the "neoclassical" period. If you are going to invest the time in working on a plane, make sure it is worth your time.The LN 4 1/2 is instructive as well. It is a beautiful plane, with a York pitch- I think it cost around $300. When I bought my #5, the same dealer had a Bedrock #4 (~1910) for $275. It was in good condition, but I could not see buying a used #4 for about the same price as a new LN. The Bedrocks are pricey because they are more collectable than the Baileys. For a jack plane, I didn't really feel the need for a Bedrock frog, for a finisher, I did. The LN came right out of the box ready to work. But, if at some future date it needs tuning- I'll be pretty comfortable putting it right.So my point is that ome times an antique plane will do the job- and teach you something about handplanes, other times a LN or LV will be better suited.The argument is not much advanced by the extremes: the modernists who deride the antique enthusiasts for "spending all their time fettling, and not working wood" or the antique collectors who dismiss anything produced since the bronze age as innately inferior.GlauconIf you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 12/18/2006 1:38 pm ET by Glaucon
G,
Your dialectic is unassailable.
Well, except that I would be gulled in trying to buy a used plane, no matter how hard I hunted for an honest seller; and your 3 or 4 hours fettling is probably equivalent to my 30 or 40, as I parp about for England, as the saying goes.
Lataxe
You could stop watching the cricket and get on with the plane - more productive and probably more fun for you guys at the moment.
<"You could stop watching the cricket and get on with the plane - more productive and probably more fun for you guys at the momentOuch. Wait, don't tell me... you're antipodean, right?Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
I tried holding my Christmas drinks outside at the same time Gilchrist was hitting the second fasteset 100 in test history. Pathetic site of about 15 adults crowded around a TV screen watching Monty get bashed for 24 off an over.
(Just thought I'd wax a bit lyrical for the sake of the heathen)
Rugby is still a couple of months off, and the provincial competition is great, but you can use hand tools and listen to the rugby at the same time. Much better to put the tools down and get a beer.
You lads and your sport-watching. Cuh! It's as interesting as watching someone else work wood (ie for about 5 minutes, then you want to go to your own shed).
Anyway, you should all put them beers down and get your bicycles out before you melt into the sofa or get the barstool permanently stuck in your ever-growing old [That's enough of that - The Taunton Abuse Police].
Lataxe
PS Exceptions are, of course, Beach Volleyball (most watchable) and Big Wave Surfing (I wouldn't dare meself but it looks SO GOOD).
Lataxe,
I've just spent the last hour reading all the entries in this knots session and I must say I've been thoroughly entertained and enlightened. Their truly are a lot of wise and witty woodworkers. Thanks be to you and all the other contributors. I too have been a serious woodworking hobbyist for many years and am just now learning the virtues of planning. I suppose that's mainly due to the fact that I only recently retired. For all those years I've been mainly a weekend woodworker and just didn't have the time or patience to fiddle with hand planes. I retired fairly young and I have many friends that are trying to persuade me to take up surfing. I haven't as yet, though the wife is supportive. I occasionally ride my mountain bike and play volley at the beach, though it's been a little cool here these last few weeks. Anyway, thanks for all the wit and wisdom. It was as good or better than any reality show I've watched recently. By the way I just read your profile and I would consider you a professional woodworker if you've built 125 pieces.
Danny,
San Diego,Ca. USA
Edited 12/20/2006 2:15 am ET by brownman
Mr Man,
San Diego always sounds to me like the US equivalent of South Shields on the English north east coast (where I were born and dragged up). Both have jolly sailors, tugboats, surf and sea fogs.
As to "professional woodworker" - that is definitely not me. "Dilettante" would be more accurate. I am a professional husband and cat owner, is all. I am an enthusiastic amateur at many other things, of course - I will not bore you with a list.
By the bye: I see you are a mere 52 and already retired. I managed escape at 55 so now I am envious.
Still, I intend to live to 108, so as to get full value from the pension scheme. I cycle, fellwalk and attend the gymnasium (for the exercise and swimming - nothing to do with the fit younger persons of the opposite gender who go there, who I observe only for inspiration concerning new exercises).
How are you finding the planes (and other handtools)? For me it is play, so I don't mind too much that making stuff (mostly WW bench accoutrements, picture frames and little boxes at the moment) takes far longer than it does with a woodrat and router.
There is a Greene & Greene writing desk on my list but I want to make all the joints with handtools. It is getting to the point where I trust myself just enough, with the planes, chisels and saws, to risk it. (The timber is afromosia and therefore must not be wasted by cackhanded errors on my part).
Lataxe
There is a Greene & Greene writing desk on my list but I want to make all the joints with handtools. It is getting to the point where I trust myself just enough, with the planes, chisels and saws, to risk it. (The timber is afromosia and therefore must not be wasted by cackhanded errors on my part).
At the risk of stating the obvious, if you haven't already, give some thought to your marking resources. My hand tool work took a giant leap forward (still not anywhere near very good) when I acquired and learned to use higher quality marking tools that slice in reference lines. Marking out, while certainly important when using power tools, it is often a distant second to machine set-up and jig work.
I don't think I could make a decent handcut mortise and tenon or dovetail joint without tapping appropriate members of my scribing arsenal: wheel gauge (LV or tite-mark), marking knife (treated myself to a Blue Spruce), try squares (Inca's Accusquares are great - Woodpeckers have some nice ones too), hook rule (12" from LV), saddle squares (I particularly like the dovetail one from LV), or 6" and 12" combination squares. The slicing is incredibly helpful in both its precision and as a unique reference/guide to final paring; my joints have become much tighter.
Again, I know this is obvious, but in case you've tended to use pencils (as I did at one point) rather than knifed lines, I thought I'd mention it.
Samson,
I'm glad you confirm for me what I seem to be learning from my recent practicing.
Although I have had a Veritas wheel gauge and Sabatier marking knives for a while, I hardly ever used them (or any other marking out tools) when employing the router, woodrat, router table et al. I adopted a style described in a Taunton book that I can't now recall, in which only the very fundamental measurements (dimensions of the piece and its components) are made then all else (particularly joint location and size) is dictated by the chosen tooling, basically.
As you say, hand tool work is not like that and does require lots of marking out. The Veritas cutting wheel, knives, engineers' square and various other marking tools have been busy (as have I, learning to use them properly).
I have the titemark gauge, including the mortising cutters, on my "to-get" list. I have already obtained a couple of other new marking tools but hoped to avoid the mortising guage by using the single cutter of the Veritas wheel gauge twice. As you will already know, this is not easy to do if an accurate guide for the mortise is to be marked. :-)
Athough I have used a knife and/or the wheel gauge to mark the depth of tais/pins, I followed Adam Cherubini's advice, from a Knots thread of some time ago, to use a (thin) pencil for marking out the tails and pins themselves. This does seem to work, as you can judge and adjust for the tightness of the fit by varying how close you saw (in) to the pencil line.
All in all, the handtool methods are great fun, teaching me new skills and techniques; they are just long-winded, for joint making, at least; planing is faster than 100% sanding, however, even if a final hand-sand is sometimes need for some surfaces. (It's probably my cack-handed planing technique).
Lataxe
Just thought I'd chip in here when I read this:-
" use a (thin) pencil for marking out the tails and pins themselves."
Pencils are clumsy devils that require sharpening and can't be relied upon to produce a consistantly thin line-unless you are using a draughtsman propelling pencil with the tough lead .5mm or thinner.
However there is a disadvantage with that as well because it is not slim enough, so I have come down to using the cartridge from a ball point pen-specifcally the Parker-the fine one.This is very slim, draws a consistantly thin line and is visible- good for all but the smallest of dove tails.
Furthermore, since it is a ball point, the line will be easy to remove , should it be in the wrong place-unlike a scribed or knifed line.
And guess what? Here in New Zealand, it has been seen fit to only import the Medium and Thick Parker ball point re-fills-one cannot find the Fine
point.
Philip Marcou
Philip,
You know, I always though New Zealand was fairly civilised; but your invective has shown the True Face of the place- a prison for one used to the wide-open spaces of the veldt and a ready-made market for campaign furniture amongst folk of a militaristic bent.
The ladywife is even talking of sending you a food parcel, in which she might also place a pen or two of the type that you have been deprived off. I am discouraging her as I need all the moolah for my next posh plane.
One day your sentence will be over and they will discharge you from Kiwistan back to the civilised world (ie somewhere in Europe - don't be tempted to go the other way, as you may be captured by cowboys and will at the very least have to suffer some hours in LAX, which is equivalent to a number of months in Kiwstan, punishment-wise).
At the risk of being banished to some Dreadful Place myself, I will now confess that I use those 0.5mm propelling pencils you mention, having unaccountably found in my possession one or two of those used at my old workplace, from which I retired a couple of years ago. They are good enough for me, a dilettante incapable of your precision.
Lataxe, a pencil-pusher
¡Señor La Taxe!
<<One day your sentence will be over and they will discharge you from Kiwistan back to the civilised world (ie somewhere in Europe - don't be tempted to go the other way, as you may be captured by cowboys and will at the very least have to suffer some hours in LAX, which is equivalent to a number of months in Kiwstan, punishment-wise).>>
Around here you might get captured by Vaqueros....or even them evil Highwaymen, known locally as banditos....
And, while LAX is an... ahem... truly fine place in which to be stuck, my personal favorite is Stuttgart-Echterdingen. Nothing quite like having the ever-vigilant protectors of das Vaterland giving you the Polizist-evil eye..... (It's a long story that I won't bore you with here....)
(BTW, being in LAX really ain't too bad, but being stuck in LA is the functional equivalent of being sentenced to gaol for a couple of months....)
No doubt that while all y'all Yuropeeuns consider the place to be "civilised," one must wonder at least a wee bit about the exact level of civilisation of a place that considers kidney pie and "pudding" to be delicacies...... (We won't even start on about some of the things that yer amie across the Channel eat....it's no wonder they have to disguise most of it with heavy sauces and such.....) And the weather: what's up with that? SIX days of sunshine a year? 347 days of rain, and rest confused and uncertain..... Average temperature 46.82° F? Methinks not -- at least not for this desert boy.... (And please note that, in colonial days of yore, every place that then benefited from the Crown's protection had SUNSHINE and HEAT.....hmmmmm.....)
And since you have admitted in open court to having used 0.5 mm propelling pencils, I hereby sentence you to be banished to a Dreadful Place: Santa Fe, NM (the City Different..... oh baby is it ever "different".....)
{Removing tongue from Cheek....}
Your pinche amigo from out West (where we give new meaning to the term "Western Civilisation"....) ;-)Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Lataxe,
I sent you a post several days ago and haven't heard back from you. Now I'm wondering if you even received it. I clicked on Reply via e-mail, so maybe you didn't, due to my error. I'll send it again if you haven't received it. Until then I can tell you that you are very much ahead of me along the craftsman path, as far as using hand tools is concerned. I've been a serious hobbyist for nearly 20 years now. This last two years in preparation for my retirement from the Big Brown(that's American slang for United Parcel Service), I built a 600 sq ft( sorry, whatever meters)dedicated wood shop in the rear yard. No windows, vaulted ceiling,whole shop cyclone dust collection system, air conditioning,TV and refrigerator,with six sky lights etc.,etc. I have all the power tools that any woodworker would ever want except a lathe,and some very nice hand planes(no woodrat either).Now that I'm retired and have much more time to develop real woodworking skills I'm looking forward to the acquisition of some nicer hand planes. I'm embarrassed to say that I only recently discovered the use of my hand scraper that I've owned for many years now. What a thrill it is to use! The only hand plane that I currently own is the Swiss Radi plane, which I only purchased some two years ago. Now before everyone starts in on me, I'm guessing that most craftsman, wood workers and other plane fettlers probably wouldn't consider this a real plane. Actually it has served me well to this point since in the past I haven't been willing to bother with tuning, adjusting and sharping a real plane. So Lataxe, will I notice when I obtain a more conventional or finer plane? Can I continue to use my power planer and wide belt sander? Or would this be sack relig! All kidding aside I would like to become more proficient at using hand tools. At least then it would put real meaning into my projects being "handmade". I suppose one couldn't possibly ever be considered a craftsman either without acquiring proficient and skilled use of hand tools. So I guess for now I'll continue to read all these fine posts on planes and chisels, and educate myself a little more before I'm quids in. Thanks again for all your wit and wisdom!
Ta Rah for now, Danny
Danny,
I sent you an email asking, "What message?" but then went to look in my mailbox and eventually found your message in the junk box (those rascals at hotmail)! I have "unjunked" your address, so the mail should now get through.
Give me a day and I'll send you a long-winded reply.
Lataxe
Thanks, I'm looking forward to hearing from you!
P,
Cricket? - is that one of them games that overgrown lads play with a bat and a ball? My advice to them is to join a racing cycling club, where men are men and if a lady joins she is always allowed to ride in front (it's just good manners, old chap and nothing to do with the lycra shorts).
I never did see why they want to knock a little white ball into a hole with a stick.
Lataxe, once a team player but rugby knocked it out of me.
He he he Patto, I doubt if any Englishman is keen on cricket at the moment....How can you be so insensitive?Philip Marcou
Samson,
First of all, sincere apologies if my jibing at your liking for plane-fettling is too uncomfortable. I don't intend to demean plane fettling or the fettlers.
However, you did ask for it a bit, by posting this very sarky thing to Don (who was just relating his experience, not getting at fettling per se):
"Gosh, I wonder how all those fantastic antique pieces where made? Those poor suckers had to use those Stanley's or (shudder) woodies! Man, I just can't imagine how they did it without Lie-Nielsens??
So, you've tried to use vintage planes and couldn't make 'em work. Must be the planes".
This over reaction on your part says "fervourist" to me - not that there's anything wrong with that either; but you shouldn't be jumping on Don (or me) from a great height just because his experience or proclivities are a bit different from yours.
Look at it this way: you are a superior woodworker because you can make an old tool work well and we either can't or don't have the patience. But you do need to turn that sensitivity knob down a notch ot two. Why, we might end up joining Nikkiwood in "Banished from Knots" land, all over a tiff about nothing important!
Lataxe, looking around nervously for snarling Stanley-wielders.
Edited 12/17/2006 6:46 am ET by Lataxe
Lataxe,
That's one problem with this sort of internet communication: there's no indication of tone. Hence the reader assumes a tone.
I'm not saying any of these things with my teeth clenched and in a loud or threatening voice.
Moreover, you and I are reading Don's post differently. You see nothing provocative in it at all; I see quite obvious put downs. To me, his "if you want to..." couplets said: if you want to waste your time messing around with old tools that don't work as well fine; but if you want to work wood, buy a LN. Hence my ribbing response.
You find the fervor of fettlers funny. I find the fervor of some LN supporters a tad amusing too I guess.
At any rate, I meant no offense and have no harsh feelings. I hope you feel the same.
Cheers.
Samson,
It's a long time since I had any hard feelings about anything, so don't worry that we are having a bit of combative fun. :-)
It's true that there are "camps", fans, loyalists and all sorts of people out there who love their tool brand or type in a very emotional way. I myself am a Marcou fetishist, although I try to keep my grosser rituals of worship for his planes confined within the privacy of my own room (I mean shed). I am, as a handtool newbie, a bit embarrassed by having such a remakable, functionally superbe and beautiful piece of engineering in my keep. (See, there I go, getting all fervent).
I didn't read Don's post as a put down - it seemed more like a confession of his frustration with his not too successful efforts to fettle old planes. He likes his already-fettled Lie Nielsen in comparison. Surely nothing wrong with that?
Anyway, my experience with Record planes put me of any type of extensive fettling. This is illogical, I know - but my emotions generally get the better of me when I am frustrated, as our cat will tell you.
Lataxe
Thanks for the kind words. Despite comments to the contrary, I did not and do not imply any criticism or demeaning of users of old Stanleys. I do think that suggestions to purchase an old tool and re-condition should in all fairness include the time that would be needed to research the topic, tools that would be needed and their cost, and suggested replacement parts (in this instance a blade and possibly chip breaker) and their cost.A replacement Hock blade was not inexpensive, and required widening the mouth. Standard mill bastard files wouldn't fit the existing mouth. I'm not willing to risk permanent damage by trying to eliminate the significant lash in the two adjusters, which means the plane needs constant fiddling when adjusting. The left side support post for the frog is sufficiently lower than the center and right post that no amount of honing with valve grinding paste will correct the problem. I don't have a metal scraper nor the inclination to try to make one from an old file. More likely that sometime I will try to build up the low post with some epoxy and hope for the best.Add a replacement chipbreaker to a Hock blade and the cost of the plane, and it's not such a bargain any more. And there's not as much personal satisfaction from using such an old Stanley with 3rd party guts. I wish there was a clear, complete information source for novices considering upgrading planes, that walked through in detail all the steps that might be needed to re-condition a used Stanley to its full potential and listed all the specific tools and other equipment that might be needed. Then people would be able to make a well informed decision whether to try upgrading.Given previous experience and the tone of replies to numerous contributors' sincere attempts to share information and experience, I was hesitant to contribute to this thread. Given the vigor of the bullying in this thread, I'm going to be even more hesitant to respond to questions in the future.
It seems to me that different attitudes towards vintage planes probably have a lot to do with differences in:
1) Cash available to spend on tools. If your resources are limited then you will probably tend towards recycling old tools rather than buying better quality new. (Please note that "cash available to spend on tools" depends on a lot of factors including income, expenses, importance of woodworking tools relative to other things, etc.)
2) Value placed on the time required to find and restore/improve a tool. If restoring/improving an old tool comes directly out of time during which you could be earning money then you probably will have a different attitude than someone who enjoys working on tools as an avocation. Likewise some regard spending an afternoon visiting antique stores, flea markets, etc as great fun. Others much prefer to just visit a store or place an order.
3) Attitude towards old things. Some folks regard anything old as inherently better. Some don't care, and there are a fair number of folks who regard new as always better. There is another aspect to this which how you want to be regarded by others (which matters to a lot of people). There is snob appeal in both only using old, restored tools, and in owning only the "best" new tools.
4) Availability of good, old tools. In the internet age this is perhaps less of an issue than in the past but there are still regional differences.
Sometimes folks forget that not everyone is the same.
Don,
<<Given previous experience and the tone of replies to numerous contributors' sincere attempts to share information and experience, I was hesitant to contribute to this thread. Given the vigor of the bullying in this thread, I'm going to be even more hesitant to respond to questions in the future.>>
Some of us are a bit rough around the edges sometimes and have a bit of a dry sense of humour, but we really do mean well. We might bark loud, but we don't bite..... I sincerely hope that you'll continue to share your experience and expertise, because it would be a real shame to lose that.
<<I wish there was a clear, complete information source for novices considering upgrading planes, that walked through in detail all the steps that might be needed to re-condition a used Stanley to its full potential and listed all the specific tools and other equipment that might be needed. Then people would be able to make a well informed decision whether to try upgrading.>>
One place that information is available is in Mike Dunbar's book, Restoring, Tuning, and Using Classic Handtools. It has detailed, step-by-step directions on restoring not only Bailey-pattern planes, but also wooden planes, chisels, saws, bit braces...the entire range of hand tools. It also has plenty of photos and charts/line drawings to help make the procedures clear. There are several other books that have varying amounts of information on tuning planes. As well, I'm working on a hand plane tune-up "tutorial" that I will be happy to post to you when it's finished -- if you're interested.
<<A replacement Hock blade was not inexpensive, and required widening the mouth.>>
An alternative solution to this is a LN replacement iron and chip breaker. If you don't already know, LN makes replacement irons to fit Stanley planes. They are thicker (.095") than the stock Stanley irons, but not as thick as the standard LN irons. They will normally fit in a Stanley plane without any need to widen the mouth, and the cost is about the same as a Hock replacement iron. While there might not be as much satisfaction to using a plane with "3rd party guts," it's a lot less frustrating to have a functional plane, even if it means good replacement parts supplant unusable original parts.....
Not trying to change your mind or anything, just providing a little food for thought.....Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
I reckon I get a plane right about half the time, and mine are all old. Often the difference is just that I didnt get a honing angle right freehand, othe times I don't know.
My equivalent experience was with a small veining tool out of a Pfiel carving set of 6. I was pretty confident using this tool because there is a leather carving operation for the same purpose to 'finish' the carving, You use a special knife on leather.
All went well untill I had to sharpen eth tool for the first time - It worked fine out of the box. Accidental reshaping and then trying to fix my mistakes cost me about 1/8" of expensive steel. Still not convinced I have it right, but it does cut.
So, although I do like my old Stanleys (mostly WWII - mid 80's but a couple of older ones). I have a lot of empathy for the non-fettlers.
Dave
Samson & Lataxe,
<<You find the fervor of fettlers funny. I find the fervor of some LN supporters a tad amusing too I guess. >>
Boy oh Boy, have I got a deal for both of you!!!!!
Lataxe: I'm one of them fervoured fettlers -- I likes my old Stanley planes what have been refurbished to the nth degree, and polished pretty, etc. -- on top of my other obvious deficiencies: part sheep-thievin' border-crossin' Geordie-wannabe, follower of The Way of St. Roy, colonial-type, don't speak proper English, etc.....
Samson: LN has lightened my wallet a lot more than SWMBO would like..... Need I say more??
Either one of ya interested in a really good deal on some beach-front property just south of Tucson??? How about a bridge across the River Thames??
With tongue firmly jammed into cheek....
;-)~Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
James,
You are just a plane-addict and probably even have Records, Kunz and Anants hidden in your toolchest. But when are you getting that Marcou? You'll be spoilt for owt else then, laddie!
Not long ago I posted a question along the lines of: "A bench - buy or build"?
Sensible folk said, "Buy - it' just another tool". But I got the bug after reading a book or ten, so built one. I like it and it was fun. It is a wonderful bench as it suits me perfectly. Even now I am adding stops, dogs, hold downs, cupboards, etc., etc..
But I haven't built any furniture for 3 WHOLE MONTHS. So how many "lost pieces" would there be were I to turn plane-fixing addict? (We retired blokes have many other interests to pursue as well as shedlife, you know. Also, we will soon be dead, so must get on with things).
As to the beach-front property - not unless it's in Pembrokeshire or Northumberland, thenk yew.
Lataxe, who needs to make a cabinet.
To an esteemed son of Geordie-land:
<<You are just a plane-addict....>>
Shhhhhh!!! No one else (especially SWMBO) is s'posed to know.....
<<and probably even have Records, Kunz and Anants hidden in your toolchest.>>
Sorry to disappoint, mate, but no Records or Kunz (gotta love that fluorescent lime green though....). There is one Anant (an A-78, which, being a new plane, needed a bit of tunin' but much less than the new Stanley 78 would 'ave.... and it's got a better fence....) There are a few Sargents and Unions, but the vast majority of the olde iron is Stanley.
<<But when are you getting that Marcou?>>
I haven't been nearly a good enough boy this year that Santa would even consider bringing me one...maybe next year?
<<Not long ago I posted a question along the lines of: "A bench - buy or build"? .... Sensible folk said, "Buy - it' just another tool". But I got the bug after reading a book or ten, so built one. I like it and it was fun. It is a wonderful bench as it suits me perfectly. Even now I am adding stops, dogs, hold downs, cupboards, etc., etc..>>
Speakin' of which, ain't seen no pictures of this 'ere bench!! Ya managed to get us all in a tizzy a couple of months ago about the buy or build question; then ya decide to build (after suitably researching everything, of course), and now you're claimin' that it's (more or less) done, we're all gettin' just a wee bit impatient to see the results of your bench-building craftsmanship, if ya gather my meanin'...... ;-)
<<But I haven't built any furniture for 3 WHOLE MONTHS. So how many "lost pieces" would there be were I to turn plane-fixing addict? (We retired blokes have many other interests to pursue as well as shedlife, you know. Also, we will soon be dead, so must get on with things).>>
You'll live, mate....besides, whatta ya call yer bench? Ain't that furniture??? Uhhhh...right....furniture...like the stuff that the LadyWife commissioned you to build.....got it....never mind..... :-)~
Lost pieces due to being a "plane-fixin' addict" ?? To whatever, sir, would you be referring? Plane tune-ups are merely a cost of doing business, so to speak, if ya want to make fine furniture. (Besides, one can never have too many hobbies...)
And speaking as a long-time hand-tool fanatic; practitioner of plane-tuning, rust hunting, and wood-butchery; purveyor of mainly useless Neanderthalic lore and trivia; etc., it's obvious, by your comments, that you have not yet gone over the edge. (Didn't I give you a little nudge a while back??? Guess you need a harder push.....) If you were actually sliding down that slippery slope you wouldn't even have to ask such a question....
At any rate, now that you have a proppa bench and the requisite (hand) tools, I expect that the LadyWife is tapping her foot looking for finished product to start emerging from the shed, so you're right...you need to get on with things.....
<<As to the beach-front property - not unless it's in Pembrokeshire or Northumberland, thenk yew.>>
Hey! Be a sport.....At least this ain't none of that underwater Everglades land that they was sellin' cheap in Florida in the 70s (heh heh heh, that's 'cause there ain't no water south of Tucson....).
What? Pardon me....
Aww right, be that way.....go make yer cabinet then......
Beste Wünschen auf eine Fröhlichen Weihnachten und ein glückliches Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 12/18/2006 2:31 pm by pzgren
Hey GWB
You will be quickly surprised how quickly you can pick up handplaning with a 'good' plane. I have spent years trying to locate cheap stanley's to clean and prep up and finally got tired of doing it. I have bought many of the Lie-Nielsen planes, never once dissapointed. Right out of th box they work, simply put on a bevel and go. I have bought for a 4 1/2, 5 1/2 and a numbber 8 for my general planing needs, add a block plane to that and you can do whatever you need with those three planes. You can add more as your skill level improves and become more comfortable. Literally out of the planer it may take me a couple of minutes to prep a board and it is glass smooth, no sanding required and far more accurate. Once you become decent at it you can litterally only take off a thou or two over a board in it's entire length and width, impossible with sanding.
Good Luck.
Dave
Canada
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