Just some thoughts as I was looking over the heavier duty machinery offered by Powermatic, Delta and the like. There seems to be quite a buzz these days about off shore manufacturing and the almost over the top assurances by the traditional US manufacturers that the quality is just as good as anything they still manufacture here.
I was interested and did some looking into, via the internet who manufactures what where and who owns who. I could find nothing that gave me anything definite. A tall order maybe but anyone know if and where something like this would exist?
I mean, it’s not going to effect my purchasing choices as I tend to use a combination of factors such as price of course, but more importantly the amount of use planned for the tool and type of use envisioned. The price range I therefore head for will rise as it’s importance in the shop will or has increased.
What bothers me about the whole offshore thing is the fact that the “great American” manufacturers such as Powermatic and Delta play on their US traditions and roots. The resurrected Oliver company comes to mind immediately. The ads go to great length to mention how far back the company goes and the tradition of heavy weight quality machinery. I e-mailed them out of curiosity as to their origin and sure enough they are made in Taiwan, albeit heavy duty and a cut above some makers offerings through the Sunhill company.
In contrast to a certain extent the mainland Europeans have managed to maintain a firmly European based industry with traditional and sometimes misplaced quality reputations. Their tools however are very expensive and to an extent are purchased by a woodworking elite of better off than other home shop types to high end cabinet makers. This is all the more evident in Europe and in particular England where space of course is a premium in many homes that even a middle class clientele may live.
I was interested to note when I attended a week long class at John Makepieces school at Parnham, (now closed) in Dorset that the demographics were firmly in the realms of landed gentry and professional classes. It was these types that have the options when it comes to woodworking as a hobby/passion.
Above all however what makes the US a great place for a woodworker is that we have a choice, regardless of the place of manufacture, to buy expensive or on a budget and have the disposable income and space to indulge in our pastime.
In conclusion, did I make sense? Cause now I can’t figure out the whole point of my ramble. Oh yea, para 2.
Bye. Earl J – Anniston, AL.
Replies
Earl
The price competition is the largest problem. Most of the all cast iron American woodworking machine manufactures have gone belly up. Northfield Foundry is one of the few left. Their equipment is phenomenal, but very expensive. The jointer that I have from them is over $12K new, and table saws and planers easily approach $20K.
Most of the oldies but goodies are history. Companies like American, Greene, Crescent, Moak, Porter, etc........ are basically gone. Tannewitz once made the best dang bandsaws available, and their table saws weren't bad either.
My personal biggest dissappointment is Oliver. A once proud red white and blue company from the 1800's went belly up, and was bought by, I believe, Eagle mfg. or something like that. Seeing a jointer, planer, tablesaw, etc.... with the proud name of Oliver on it, made in frickin' Taiwan makes me nautious.
What can we do? $2000 vs. $20,000 for a table saw is just a wee bit of a discrepancy.
Jeff
Have a look at Delta and their 14" bandsaws. They are currently offering both saws made in the US and Asia, with the Asia saws significantly less expensive though they also have fewer features. I wonder how much longer they will offer the US made saws - it depends on what folks buy and what happens to relative costs in the future.
The question of what's made where gets tricky if you look beyond "final assembly". Parts can be sourced globally then brought together in one location.
I've looked through a few British tool shops and not all European stationary power tools are top quality. There is a lot of Asia sourced tools sold there although sometimes under different brand names. Also some of the European sourced tools are top quality, there are ones which probably be non-competitive in the North American market.
Last I heard Powermatic was bought up by Black and Decker years ago.
PowerMatic was purchased by the WMH company. Black and Decker recently purchased Pentair which is Delta, Porter Cable, Devillbiss etc.------------------------------------
The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)
Powermatic was bought by WMH Tool Group, a Swiss company who also own Jet. http://www.wmhtoolgroup.com/
Delta and Porter Cable were purchased by Black and Decker Corp http://www.bdk.com/ a couple of years ago. Black and Decker power tool brands include Black and Decker, DeWalt, Porter Cable, and Delta. So far I haven't noticed much consolidation of product design between Dewalt and Porter Cable or Delta.
Earl,
"Their tools however are very expensive and to an extent are purchased by a woodworking elite of better off than other home shop types to high end cabinet makers".
I had to laugh when I read this bit of American anthropology concerning dear old Blighty and its woodworking inhabitants. So, you think we're all super-rich gentlemen cabinetmakers, eh? Heh heh heh heh!
European woodworking machines range from the Very Expensive Indeed down to Very Reasonable. Most of those machines made in Germany, Italy, Austria, Belgium, etc. are engineered within the long-standing heavy industy traditions of those countries.
You will be hard put to find a bad one; most are of excellent quality, whatever end of the manufacturer's raange they are from. The TS also have sliding tables, riving knives, blade brakes, etc, etc.. (That is, their design is not stuck in 1903, as many US designs seem to be).
Of course, there are nasty cheap things in the UK market too - but most of these seem to be outsourced from the far east and cost $99. Increasingly, there is also some better quality stuff from the far east, which is cheaper than the equivalent European marques but more like $999.
But there is a myth circulating in the US, that European machines of quality all cost $20,000. My sliding table equiped, 3.5 hp 10 inch TS was $3300 with all the bits. The huge 3.5 hp bandsaw was $2800; the 10 inch 3 hp planer/thicknesser $1700. Whilst this is not cheap, it is not silly money either and the tools are extremely well made.
I recommend you import one or two. You will be the envy of your mates; and you may also then adopt an Haristocratic Hinglish Haccent to impress them even further. :-)
Lataxe, a bourgeois
Edited 1/21/2007 2:53 pm ET by Lataxe
Lataxe: I gotta tell ya dude: I sure enjoy your sense of humor and writing style. I was reading posts in a desulatory manor and came apon one somewhere in it's middle. I recognized your whit right off without seeing your name at the top or bottom of the post. This in no way is to demean your understanding of woodworking and the associated machinery and handtools etc.
Regards, Duke, in Berkeley California, frequently short of words."... Buy the best and only cry once.........
Lataxe,
It's ok. I'm afraid I didn't get into woodworking till later in life when I moved to the States from the UK (sunny Wolverhampton), so my real knowledge of the "rank and file" woodworker in Britain is limited to those I met at Parnham in 2000 on one of my visits home. I suppose I was making a generalization which I am prone to do at times and for that I apologize.
Just don't make fun of my accent.
TTFN, Earl
Earl,
"Just don't make fun of my accent".
I promise not to say "Oo-arr" or "bostin" apart from this once. :-)
You were a lucky man to do a bit of larnin' with John Makepiece, who was a very superior maker indeed. I won't pretend that I like a lot of his stuff, style-wise. But what a designer and cabinetmaker he was.
As an ex-pat, you may or may not feel an affection for the owld landes of your burf, across the briney. In either case, you can surely buy a lovely German tablesaw or other fine European machine with a clear conscience. They are nice as a pie and also Good Value.
Them unisaw clones they flog in the US of A take your fingers off, you know - just after they pierce you through the chest with a kicked-backed plank. And they seem also to have poor biscuit joiners over there ........
Lord Lataxe of Galgate - 3 woodworm rampant.
Bravo. And not only will he be "the envy of his mates", but sooner or later the American manufacturers might actually wake up, which would probably be a good thing for all.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
"heavier duty machinery offered by Powermatic, Delta "
I've always consdered their machinery in the light to middle weight class. Moak, Northfield, Mereen Johnson, Porter, Buss, etc would be heavy duty machinery.
Funny thing, is with the imports from Taiwan, machines are cheaper and there is a lot more available than there was 30 years ago. I remember when made in Japan used to mean junk. Now it's the other way around. I don't really worry where it's made. American made means made by a bunch of people have origins from other countries anyway. The only real native Americans are the indians.
Rick L
By American made I don't mean made by the great melting pot that we are, it is the implied quality that has been attached to products such as Delta and Powermatic. By implied I mean a certain pride in product, documented standards and procedures, higher quality raw materials.
I read an article in one of the rags a while back that visited a number of the Taiwanese makers and I found it interesting to note that these companies will farm out some tasks to the local cottage industry with little old ladies balancing bandsaw wheels in a back room of their homes or wherever. They may well be very good at what they do, however I can bet they aren't following a documented process or working in a controlled environment.
Thats where I have the problem with off shore makers and our use of them. It may well be a perception but perceptions are hard to off load. It's the baggage that we humans will always have to carry to a certain extent. You may well think I'm a jerk for my posting but I'm genuinely interested in where things are made.
I practice this in much of our shopping. There is nothing inately wrong with supporting home industries, products and employment. It does us all good in the long run. (at least I like to think so)
Lets end this thread. I was hoping to avoid politics, genetics, what is heavy what is not, and general hair splitting. Thank you to those that offered links and some history. You actually answered my question.
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