Replies

1. 
   kdk | Oct 09, 2002 08:26pm | #1

   CHIP' I was in the same position a couple of years ago.  I ended up buying a Powermatic Model 26 shaper at an auction where a small cabinet shop was going out of business.  I really like the machine, now, but got a little stung.  It was really my own fault because I didn't know exactly what I was getting into.  The machine ran fine when the owner plugged it in, although there was a little vibration as it spun to a stop.  This particular version of the '26 came with a replaceable 3/4" spindle.  I suspected that it might be a little bent, I was correct.  I replaced it with a new one from Powermatic.  It was bent too.  On further investigation, I discovered that the replaceable spindle piece was not the problem, the entire spindle assembly needed to be replaced.  Not a terribly difficult job, but a rather expensive component. 

   All said and done, the machine cost me about 1200 bucks.  I guess my message is that if you're looking into used equipment, be sure and do your homework and go over the machine with a fine toothed comb.  I called Powermatic ahead of time with the serial number to make sure that parts were avialable, this I had enough sense to do, at least.  If you don't already own any, you might think of buying or borrowing a couple of indicators.  Both a standard 0-1" dial indicator and a .015-0-.015 test indicator.  Check the spindle carefully before casting a bid on the machine.  A quick call to the manufacturer of the equipment will tell you what the spec limits are for spindle run-out and perpendicularity to the table.  The latter can be adjusted, the former probably can't.

   Finally, I like my shaper.  I replaced the spindle assy with a 1 1/4" solid spindle.  It runs like new and doesn't chatter due to spindle flex.  My only regret with the 1 1/4" spindle is that cutters are much more difficult to find that their 3/4" bore counterparts.  My first job on the machine was to make several thousand feet of tongue and groove oak paneling. 

   As for HP, the 3 hp Marathon motor that was standard on this machine has been adequate so far.  I have made some raised panel cabinet doors taking a full cut in one pass, including the back-cut.  These sessions were considerably shorter than the paneling, but the quality of cut was flawless.  Many would advise against a 3 hp machine for raised panel applications, but I haven't had a problem (my cutters are still sharp).  If I had the choice between a 3HP and 5HP machine at the auction, I'd have taken the 5HP.  The way I look at it is that you'll always run across a situation where you wish you had more power, but rarely one where you say "gee, this machine just has too much".

   Without knowing the applications you have in mind, it's difficult to recommend what size of shaper will best suit your needs.  Each of the three brands you mentioned would probably perform to approximately the same level.  The differences may be more apparent in how well they're set up from the factory and the fit 'n finish.  The "imports",,,, I'd be a little leary of buying a machine that I can't look at first too.

   One last little piece of advice.  Hold back enough money after the purchase to invest in a power feeder.  The one I got is a bottom of the line mini-feeder and is a little finicky in the set-up but I'm scared enough of this machine to be patient with the feeder and spend a little extra time making sure it's set up so that it feeds the stock properly.  All shapers run with a lot of exposed moving parts.  Anything you can do to keep your body parts away is in your best interest.

   Sorry to so long winded.  Hope this helps.

   -Kurt

1. 
   ChipTam | Oct 10, 2002 02:38pm | #4

   Kurt, Jeff, and Joe,

   Many thanks for the feedback on my question.  Like many other woodworkers I've had to depend on my router table for shaping for many years.  Fifteen years ago I thought it would be a temporary solution until I could purchase a shaper.  It works but every time I need to make fine adjustments on the router table or buy a new set of cope and stick bits I tell myself it's time to find a more permenant solution.  Over this next winter I have the opportunity to do two more kitchens and a half dozen exterior doors.  Hence, my renewed interest in a shaper.

   Kurt, like you, I would have jumped at the chance to get that Powermatic shaper for around $1,000.  I have a number of second-hand Powermatic and Delta-Rockwell machines in my shop and have never felt the need to upgrade.  That's good advice about bringing along my dial indicator if I find a used one.  I'm still looking.  I think that I would prefer to get a machine which accomodates  1/2", 3/4" and 1" spindles for exactly the reason you mention (less expensive knives).  I guess that you prefer the 1 1/4" spindle because it reduces vibration.  I think that I would also like to have a machine with a 1/2" router collet.  I've heard that machine speeds can be a problem when using router bits in a shaper but it would allow me to use some of my router bit collection until I build up my inventory of shaper knives.

   Joe, I'm not sure that a router table is all that safe either especially when using larger bits.  Also, given the size of my shop, I don't think that 2-3 more router tables will fit.  But, I agree with your main point.  One needs to be very cautious around a shaper.  I've heard from others that a power feeder makes the machine a bit safer and improves the quality of the cutting. 

   Jeff, those prices on the Jet and Delta machines sound good.  I'll check them out.  Again, thanks for your replies and I would be interested in any further feedback.

   Chip

2. 
   JeffKurtz | Oct 09, 2002 11:49pm | #2

   Chiptam,

   Just got home from the candy store, and noticed they had both the 3hp Delta and Jet on sale for $1050 - not bad at all.  I bought a Jet about 18 mos. ago, and though I haven't used it as much as I want to, it seems like a very good machine.  I was especially surprised at it's ease of adjustment - smooth and very accurate.  Only thing I don't like about it is the poor quality of the hold-downs.  I threw mine in a box some place.  A power feeder would be a nice addition to any of these machines, but Board Buddies work fine.

   I wouldn't worry about the 3hp. models being too small.  My first project was a bunch of raised panels made of 4/4 oak.  I did them in a single pass and they didn't even make the motor grunt.  Good luck.

   Jeff

3. 
   JOEJOHNY | Oct 10, 2002 04:47am | #3

   Chipster,

   Hope you don't mind if I chime in here.  Please take this message with a grain of salt. 

   I purchased a Delta 3HP shaper last year in hopes of expanding my woodworking horizon: new and creative moldings, awesome jigs, raised-panel doors with a single pass, large radius roundovers and coves, etc.   I will have to admit, when I began using to machine, I was a bit nervous.  Have you ever used a router table and been a tad weary of a large router bit spinning at high RPM as you sneak your fingers by?  Well, with a shaper, take that anxiety and multiply it by 100.  A spinning router bit can lob of a finger pretty easily.  A spinning shaper cutter can make the better part of your hand disappear in one pulpy second.  Please forgive my gory wording here, but I felt that the shaper was too risky in spite of it's advantages.  And actually, my Delta 3HP shaper STALLED on me nearly every time when I tried to cut the top and bottom profile of a door panel at the same time.  What a let down.  My answer was to sell the shaper and spend the same amount of money on two or three beefy router/router tables with dedicated profiling purposes.  It seems I can whisk out a complete raised-panel door much faster this way and not have the danger associated with the shaper.  I'm sure there are people who completely disagree with me.  Fine.  Perhaps you're right and I'm chicken.  And yes, I am well aware of power feeders and hold-down jigs alike.  But bigger isn't always better.

   Joe

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Oct 10, 2002 02:43pm | #5

   Joseph,

   A shaper is no more inherently dangerous than a router, and, properly guarded, exposes no more "flesh" than a table mounted router.  Actually, the machine's mass provides a degree of stability that should increase it's safety.

   Do you have a copy of The Shaper Book (Tauton press)?  The jigs and fixtures shown in it are excellent.  Perhaps the smaller size of the router gives you a false sense of security.(?)  Don't give up on your shaper - it's a fantastic machine.

   Jeff

1. 
   riverr1 | Oct 10, 2002 08:23pm | #6

   I've seen a lot of discussion lately on power feeds for shapers. I've never seen one on the small machines so how are they mounted? Also, what size would be needed and what feed rates for these small machines?

   Don

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Oct 10, 2002 09:32pm | #7

   Don,

   I think the power feeder manufacturer would have definitive answers.  I've never used one, but I know that with other machinery one tries to approach stall speeds, then adjust according to thickness, size of cut, wood species.  Guess we do that all the time when we hand feed stock and make the adjustments unconsciously.

   I once fed an elm log  about 4' in diameter into the head saw of the mill too fast and got a 62" saw stuck in the thing.  Had to use chain saws, axes and wedges to try to free the saw without any damage.  Two hours later, we finally freed the saw.  After that I set my unconscious feed rate for large elm at slow, very slow.

   Jeff

2. 
   JPGrout | Oct 13, 2002 06:18am | #10

   Don I use power feeder all the time and I can assure you that any misgivings people have about safety and shapers pretty much go away. They are the ultimate safety device on a shaper when setup properly. I do every function imaginable with mine and have not ever felt that there was a safety issue as long as you recognize that some cutting operations need jigs or carriers to accomplish the cut. As to HP I always recommend `1/2 HP minimum with 3 wheels to begin with. This feeder will handle anything you put under it without stalling. I run entry door stiles 1 3/4" thick 8'long on my 3HP shaper often and the only thing I do is make two passes mainly because the two sided sticking cutters with a 3/4 " groove is hogging a lot of material for one pass even though it will do it in most woods in one pass. As to shaping panels I use 5 to 6" diameter 3 wing profile cutters and as long as they are sharp I have no problem with bogging down the shaper. Heck cutting two sided panel isn't even a problem. I just run one knife and flip the panels to mill both sides. I work with two larger shapers to pay the bills and we do not run 2 panel knives at the same time there.

   As far as feed speed goes I set mine so that the feed rate is fast enough to prevent burning the profile of the cut and slow enough to get a chatter free profile. I even use the power feed to run arched top panels and rails A jig is needed to make the rail cut because the entire edge gets shaped. On panels I cut the radius of the arch in one panel and then use it to cut the rest of the panels with a router so that the panel can be shaped against a bearing rub collar under the panel knife. I just have to steer (manhandle) the panel under the power feed to create the profile. Sometimes it takes another pass or two to accomplish a uniform cut but it is still faster than any other way I have tried.

   The mounting system is straight foward You need to drill 3 or 4 holes in the top for a mounting base You just need to stay away from the ribs in the top when drilling You generally end up attaching the base in the rear left hand corner of the table. This position works out best for the most uses.

   The Shaper book is well worth the cover price. I have garnered much of what I describe from that book. You may want to check out ths thread for more info on power feed and it's usefullness

   http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=tp-knots&msg=8103.81

   Hope this helps Joe

   Edited 10/12/2002 11:22:49 PM ET by JOEGROUT

1. 
   dcarrara | Oct 13, 2002 06:25pm | #11

   I bought a Grizzly 3HP shaper this summer ( $870 w/ shipping). It is a heavy machine at around 300-400 pounds. It seems to run well. Came with 1/2, 3/4, and 1" spindles. I thought it only came with 3/4 so I bought some 3/4 bits for it. I can tell you that with 2 straight bits and spacer between them (1+7/8" t&g oak planks) there is a lot of spinning metal in front of you. The sound it makes is scary, but it works well.

   We bought a power feeder (Grizzly 1/4 hp, $300) and that works well. Except you have to use a wrench and move gears around to get various feed rates. Be careful because the feeder will stall easily. I would bye the biggest one you afford. I mounted the feeder directly on the cast iron table with 4 bolts, 2 inside and 2 out. We did stall it twice at too high a feed rate. Also, makes huge amounts of chips. The fence it came with is junk, put it directly into the wood stove.

   "The Shaper Book" is a must for everyone. I am just about to build the box fence so I can raise some panels. The panel bit I just got is huge and heavy, but I got it with r&s stackable bits all for $100 from MLCS.

   I was looking at a router table, but if you add up all the cost of the router, table, insert, lowering mechanism, etc, it comes to $500-$700 anyway.

   Dario

   Edited 10/13/2002 11:29:54 AM ET by Dario

   Edited 10/13/2002 11:32:20 AM ET by Dario

   Edited 10/13/2002 2:41:22 PM ET by Dario

2. 
   riverr1 | Oct 13, 2002 06:43pm | #12

   Joe,

   Although I sure many found your post very enlighting, you lost me with much of it. I don't have the shaper experience to comprehend much of what you were getting at. Seems the shaper book is in order also. I'm assuming what you were getting at with mounting the feed is the little tables that bolt to the machines? Still with a shaper, the feed would seem to be right on top of the table. Apparantly it doesn't matter. Thanks for the input.

   Don

3. 
   JPGrout | Oct 13, 2002 09:30pm | #13

   Well not exactly Don. You could do that but you would risk losing a bit of reach by doing so. I mount feeder on the main casting of the shaper. It is a little harder to get it bolted down because you are putting the bolts on the two of the mounting holes inside the cabinet of the shaper. I have found that one bolt in this position is all that is necessary so it isn't quite so hard to mount. The way I position my shaper is with the eextension table towards the operator. This gives you more support to do coping (crosscut) operations and lets the fence stay in place during all operations. This is one machine where you want the fence in place to create a square cut both with and across the grain. Joe

2. 
   JOEJOHNY | Oct 11, 2002 02:49am | #8

   Jeff,

   Thanks for the message.  I had forgotten about the shaper book that you mentioned until now.  I would like to order it come to think of it, and maybe "get to know" the shaper all over again.  If it's a Taunton book then no doubt it's first class.  And yes, the router table can be just as dangerous.  I've had my share of nicks, cuts, and other close calls, and have developed a healthy respect for nearly all power tools, fast or slow.  It really is an understood risk in our business, don't you think?

1. 
   JeffKurtz | Oct 11, 2002 06:24am | #9

   Joseph,

   Risky business? Of course.  Perhaps that is part of the reason for my growing interest in hand tools.  Granted, one can easily injure oneself with those as well, but I don't know of anybody amputating a finger or hand with a cross cut saw.  They're a lot quieter and easier on the lungs too.

   Jeff