Hello, I’m in the need of a new back saw.. I have at times in the past hand cut both dovetails and tenons, and see myself doing more in the future. I’d like to get a quality saw along the lines if Lie-Nielson. I understand the differences between rip and crosscut saws, but do not really want to put out the cash to buy one of each.
My question is: Can someone come away with good results using a dovetail saw to make tenons and/or vise-versa? Is one type of saw going to be more versatile than the other?
Replies
Yeah - a tenon saw is typically filed rip because sawing the tenon cheeks is a rip cut. However, the L-N dovetail saw is a bit small for sawing large tenons. If all you're doing is building small doors for cabinets, etc..., it'll work, but I find that the larger the tenon saw (within limits), the easier it is to saw straight tenon cheeks.
You can definitely use a saw filed rip to cross-cut (just about anything, though the cut surface is more ragged) and you can use a small cross-cut saw to saw dovetails, but a cross-cut gets pretty tough to use on larger rip cuts, as it's pretty slow. The more strokes you have to put into a cut, the larger the chance that you'll make an errant steering motion and mess up a tenon cheek. That's partly why authors like Charles Hayward and Chris Schwarz, to name a couple of many, advise using the longest stroke you can for any given saw.
If you like the lie-nielsens, you might consider getting the smaller of the two tenon saws they sell filed rip, and then when funds allow get a smaller dovetail saw and the small carcass saw. Having only one for both tenons and dovetails isn't ideal, but it'll work.
Adam has a point (and a good one), which is why I have a half-dozen saws, some are antiques, some are Lie-Nielsens. And the one Wenzloff I used was really, really nice. The only problem there is that there's about a 6 month backlog for some (maybe all - Mike will have to comment on that) of their saws. Lie-Nielsen and Grammercy (Tools for Working Wood) may be your only choices if you don't want an antique and would like to get started sooner.
From what I've heard Mike's saws are great but he has suspended taking orders until he can get caught up. Mike posted this a couple of weeks or so ago. Darn shame for now as I was going to order one.
Bruce"A man's got to know his limitations." Dirty Harry Calahan
I think Mike has suspended CUSTOM orders only. Mike also provides very very fine and very complete product ranges to retailers LV and "The Best Things". I think it's wrong to speculate on what the lead times are. Contact a retailer and find out what is in stock, what is in the pipeline, and what the real lead times are.If you want the best you may have to wait. If you want a McSaw go to your local home center! Adam
P.S. I love the "McSaw".
Yep, custom and or direct orders are suspended for a time.
But, we are also back ordered at The Best Things and probably Lee Valley even though they both are receiving shipments. Most of my energy is on working down the already placed direct orders. The boys mostly are working on the two mentioned retail sources. Both the boys and I end up with tasks we do best for each other.
Both LV's and TBT's web sites show in-stock status. So a check of their respective sites should let one know what is or isn't available.
To the OP.
Using a single saw for small joinery such as DTs and tenons mostly depends on the scale of either. Certainly on the smaller cabinet on stands I have made I used my rip-filed carcass saw for both case and drawer DTs as well as the smallish tenons used in the rails and stiles. So it is a scale issue combined with how coarse a saw is used.
If your work tends to wider tenons than say 1 1/2" in width, consider a closed handled tenon saw from 14" to 19" in length. But that leaves you with the saw for small joinery. One compromise to think about is the stroke length. Using a shorter saw is great for small scale joinery. Not so efficient on tenons regardless of the progressive pitch issue. Using too high a tooth count on wider tenons is also inefficient as the gullets fill with saw dust in the cut and slow down cutting. Too low a tooth count and sawing small scale joinery is a rough proposition.
One option that may fit your particular immediate needs would be the LN progressive pitch carcass saw--you can ask Tom to file the carcass saw tht way. I think the web site only shows the DT saw filed as a progressive pitch. I don't think it is a best case scenario. However, seeing how the teeth are physically cut using a CNC (followed by hand set/sharpening) they can most likely tailor the beginning and ending ppi. Worth asking anyway.
If I were to attempt this route, I would go from either 15 or 16 ppi at the toe to perhaps 12 ppi at the heel on an 11" or 12" saw with 2 1/2" usable depth. Open handle would be my choice, which is why I suggested their carcass saw (versus the 9" length of the DT).
You also need to consider the shoulder cuts for the tenons. Knifing the shoulders and using a fine pitched rip will work, but I personally do not like that choice and prefer a cross cut carcass saw for such work. So if you can have them make you the above saw, consider adding the cross cut carcass saw if you do not have one.
Even for small work, I prefer a longer saw for tenons. My most used tenon saw is 14" in length, but I do use a longer saw depending on the species at times. My preference for a DT saw also depends on what I am sawing. The couple I use mostly are one at 9" with 16 ppi and one at 10" and 15 ppi.
Well, time to fix a late dinner.
Take care, Mike
Thank very much to all. This is terrific info and leads me to the conclusion that I'll probably be getting two saws in the future. I'm not bent on the LN, so the info on other makers is nice. I'll definitely look into it.I currently have and old fine toothed Crown rip saw that saws a crooked line every time. In the beginning, I figured it was my technique, but after a lot of trial and error I learned how to follow the scribe line by not trying to follow it; if that makes any sense. I figure the problem might be an asymmetrical tooth set.Thanks again to all.Eric
Unless LN has chnged the tooth pattern on their DT saw since I bought mine 5 or 6 years ago, it is a rip tooth configuration. The reason that it's a rip tooth is that the majority of cuts in DTs are rip cuts. If you're doing small tennons, the LN DT saw should work fine.
Do you enjoy cross cutting lumber on your table saw? Small rips on your compound miter saw? Rip sheet goods on your band saw?
My point of course is that you can make anything work. But we generally find it's best to use the "right" tool for the job. It's best, safest, and more fun. And hand saws are exactly like the machines you are familiar with and everything else you've done. The issue (as always) is how much trouble you want to go to to make it work and will that be worth your while finanically. Obviously that's a question you have to answer.
The only real limiting factor with backs saws is the depth of cut. You can't saw a kerf deeper than the blade you've got. Beyond that, you can use your skill to compensate for any inefficiencies your hand saws have. If you don't have great hand saw skills, you are really better off biting the bullet and buying a decent DT, a short 12-16" deep x-cut back saw and a long tenon (16-20"). The purpose built saws are just easier to work with. And in the grand scheme of things, they really aren't too expensive.
Personally, I think LN is a little behind on hand saw technology. The saws are beautiful but some of their lengths and tooth geometries don't seem to match up well. I recommend http://www.wenzloffandsons.com. They really know their business and offer great products at very reasonable prices. I've closed my saw making shop and my respect for Wenzloff products and service has increased through my experience making saws.
Adam
P.S. I understand those who would say they don't want to spend the cash on a saw that only cuts tenon shoulders. I find my x-cut back saw to be absolutely essential. It's an extremely useful tool that becomes more and more helpful as your skill with it grows.
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