Thank you one and all. I agree that Porter Cable’s freight train belt sanders are a lifetime tool- if I still did this stuff for money I would buy one. I have used the Bosch 4×24. It is a very good machine but I felt it was underpowered. Lastly, it is tough to beat Ryobi for the $. I like their 3×21, looks like a twin of the Bosch. (Can’t say I was impressed with their use of sleeve bearings and bushings instead of ball bearings on the older belt sanders they made for Sears).
But I want a 4×24 workhorse. I will probably go with the Porter Cable- just wish they made a sanding frame for it. Does anyone know of plans to help an inept “craftsman” lijke me cobble something together? Thanks again for sharing your knowledge and experience.
Replies
I sure wished someone had answered your question on a PC sanding frame. doesn't seem like it woud be that difficult thing for the manufacture to provide.
I have a PC 4x24 and I love it compared to a 3x21, heavier and a larger surface for better flat sanding. When I work on the site my table is used to support and work from. Cut a piece of plywood, rectangular in shape, longish (sorry for no exact dem.s here), and notch it on the short side to receive and hang the front handle of your sander from, belt side up, with the corded end down. If your sander has a vac bag, just compensate for it in the width of your ply piece. This is mounted vertically and sticking up above and at one end of table. This places the belt sander belt up and at an angle. Handy for two handed piece control and small work with both hands. You could be more creative and make a right angle plate of ply and figure a way to mount it up above the belt. It can be done and, when you get it done, will be very handy to help in more ways than just a loose (standard) sander. Good luck. ~Z~
Edited 5/10/2005 10:28 pm ET by zorro
The pc 4X24 and the plywood frame make good sense. Sanding frame for Bosch sanders apparently has three different frames. Sanding frame for Bosch sanders (modell 1276DVS) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223H7/ref=hi_deav_acc_1_41/102-3137249-8366568?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013Sanding frame for Bosch sander (model 1274DVS) http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000223HA/qid=1115887452/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-3137249-8366568?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013Sanding frame for Bosch sanders (models 1273DVS, 1276D, and 1276DVS)
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005S7TE/qid=1115887452/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1_etk-tools/102-3137249-8366568?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013The Amazon reviews of the Bosch 1274DVS 3" x 21" Dustless Variable Speed Belt Sander were universally favorable. Though the ones for the Bosch 1276DVS 4" x 24" Dustless Variable Speed Belt Sander are oppositional for comfort.
Can anyone tell me if the DEWALT DW4055 Sanding Frame can be removed from the stand and used for flat sanding? It appears it can.http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000CCXTW/qid=1115889969/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2_etk-tools/102-3137249-8366568?v=glance&s=hi&n=228013DEWALT DW4055 Sanding Frame and Stand accepts the models DW432 and DW433 DEWALT belt sanders. There were no reviews for the 432. The 433 didn't look favorable.
Edited 5/12/2005 5:49 am ET by hdblackburn
It has been quite awhile since I've had a Bosch belt sander in my hands, but the one I've used a fair bit just felt a bit less comfortable to use than the Porter-Cable 4x24.....thanks for your info though...appreciated. ~Z~
Frankly, I have avoided these tools for ten years. I gone through scrapers, and anything else (including a drywall sander retrofitted into a variable speed recip saw) I could use to avoid any sander on the market for my projects. Well the projects are growing larger and I bought my first rehab house. Renting tools doesn't fit my style or sensibility. The recip saw gets a tad heavy and is noisy, though it works well and puts less dust in the air than any of my friends fancier machines, the straight stroke is essential tor me. The tiny bit of vibration out of their little sanding machines seems more like something made for a sex aid than a power tool. I am sure they are fine for cabinet work, but that is where I'd use a well tuned plane or cabinet scraper.
In the end, I have little to compare these modern belt sanders with, hence I am hanging out here; tapping into the experience of you big boys and girls.
Edited 5/13/2005 9:04 am ET by hdblackburn
I'm in agreement with you on some of your comments....shaving wood with a well tuned plane and a scraper is very satisfying, you feel the wood and tool with a deftness that all the electricity, and the vibrations it brings, kills. I work in the high, high end, homes in South Carolina as a finish carpenter and they rarely need you (or want you to) handplane work, it's still a production thing out here, even in these 1&2 million $ homes. It IS a shame. I came here from the San Diego County, CA five years ago. I grew up there. In California we WOULD take some time to distress, scrub plane, scorp cut, shavehook, hatchet.....all kinds of ways, on timbers for the roof, flooring before and after it went down. These were the EXTREME homes you have seen on HGTV (a few of the homes I worked in were on this segment). But I'm not over there and I am working here. A great thing I've found is to keep a flexible 1 1/2" putty knife in my bags, always, and a two sided file (the one with a handle forged-in). If you just run the end of the blade on the file with the mill cut, it will make that into a great and handy scraper, even without tuning it works fine for many things and no fuss. If you take a few seconds more and flat file and then burnish on the !/2" chisel shaft, that I also carry in my bags, nearly as good as a fine scraper. Take care....~Z~
Re: "A great thing I've found is to keep a flexible 1 1/2" putty knife in my bags, always, and a two sided file (the one with a handle forged-in). If you just run the end of the blade on the file with the mill cut, it will make that into a great and handy scraper, even without tuning it works fine for many things and no fuss. If you take a few seconds more and flat file and then burnish on the !/2" chisel shaft, that I also carry in my bags, nearly as good as a fine scraper".We must be long lost brothers. Though I am a psychiatrist by day, out of the office you will most often find the putty kinfe in my back pocket. I find the steel in these to be universally of good quality and the full tang makes for an excellent quality tool. I keep the sides ready to be burnished to a nice hook on moments notice too. Love the 6" also.
LOL, We are in agreement, Bro, first started using them when we were working in "The Fish Market" restaurants. Saw a fine, fine carver and woodworker, Randy McAvoy, scraping plugs after chiseling them, asked regarding the usage and I haven't looked back but only in appreciation.....a very fine and simple solution to many situations, one of the best.....Thanks. ~Z~
Edited 5/16/2005 7:21 pm ET by zorro
Edited 5/16/2005 7:22 pm ET by zorro
I bought the Bosch variable speed 4x21 and the sanding frame ($89 at kilspore). Awesome. Best flooring job I have done yet. With the Fein vac hooked into the machine, no dust.
Bosch variable speed 4x21 and the sanding frame ($89 at kilspore). Awesome. Best flooring job I have done yet.
You really got my attention with that, and with your occupational remarks in an earlier post. Here I'm interested in the Bosch 4" as a floor sander. I don't want to handle the weight of a rented floor sander. I keep reading belt sander posts for flooring comments. Yours was right on target.
My floor is probably a bit more of a challenge to the sander than yours. I have wide board 150 year old floors, and these have a few layers of paint on them. Do you think that Bosch might be able to handle the paint?
I have a fried that does historic restoration of famous places and he just finished a wide plank job as you describe. He did the job himself because he thought a modern floor man would drumsand all of the charactor out of the floor. He used his Bosch VS 4X24 without a frame. He just got back in town and came over to see my rehab project before starting his new kitchen in wone of his multifamily building. I told him about Second Chance, Inc that sells reclaimed building parts and has heart pine floors like his for $5/sf. I also showed him the sander and frame in action. He was impressed, borrowed and brought it back with rave reviews. He orderd one for his machine. I don't have a problem with you using that machine on painted floors as long as you are using a vacuum on the port. The bosch is well designed in the dust pick-up department. I use a Fein vac so I am not worried about lead escaping. I also have a infared silent paint stripper that works well, but if I had your project I would NOT strip it first. Here is why or at least what I'd do. I'd put some agressive sand paper on the maching and raise the sanding plane with the adjustment nob on the frame. I'd go over the floor in that barely touching mode in order to grant me a really accurate view of the problems with the floor. That process will take you about 15 minutes per 400 square feet. In this regard the paint is quickly helping you find the troubled spots; WITHOUT wasting perfectly good wood flooring. The operating principle is 'do no harm'. I am really glad you are leaving that drum sander rental at Home Depot.
Thanks for taking the time to provide all of that information. What helps sell the Bosch here is that both you and your rehabbing friend have been using the machine for floor sanding. You definately have me closer to buying the Bosch.
My concern about the paint is whether a 4" belt sander will be able to take it off. It's thick, 2 or 3 layers, and these were not thin coats. This isn't alike a set of thin coats of paint on some vertical trim boards. So I'd appreciate your opinion on the suitability of the machine for thicker paint removal.
You started me thinking about dust control. I didn't think that I had to worry about that when I rented the 8" drum sander, yet I ended up with some strange headaches. I have a Porter Cable vacuum and I'll see if I have connectors to mate to the dust port.
Klingspor (800-228-0000; http://www.klingspor.com)
We hate throwing money away, we want our time use efficiently, and we don't want to be home owners that decide to put in a little extra that takes a huge chunk of time; taking away from the thrill of a job well done.
Belt Sander with Frame Justification (BSFJ)
1) You will need something to edge with eventually: BSFJ: Finer papers cross grain (edgers go cross grain too, so even odds)
2) You don't want to drum to stop moving across the floor with any grit paper = instant ditch: BSFJ
3) You want to have superior control over the material removal: BSFJ
4) You want to work efficiently: BSFJ
5) You always have the option of gettting the disc, drum or pad floor sander after you get the BS and Frame. I think you will make zero sum time and expense with the belt sander. The time in going to acquire and deliver the floor sander and edger including expenses is high. Spending $200 in drum sander paper is plain wasteful; it alone pays for the majority of the belt sander: BSFJ
6) Aggresive Belts on the sander is going to reduce the paint to dust fast enough. Your goal is going to be slow rate of feed so you are not removing wood and not clogging the paper: BSFJ
7) The paint is going to educate you in using th machinery. At present it is your friend: BSFJ (You can always go get that drum and do a first pass on the paint).
Hell, I am just blabbing my justifications. Grain of salt.
FWIW, the neighbor behind me has done his LR floor with the drum and is now using my method on his kitchen.
Your goal is going to be slow rate of feed so you are not removing wood and not clogging the paper
A good reason to get a variable speed model.
I have to add that I found your whole Belt Sander with Frame Justification (BSFJ) persuading in addition to plain entertaining.
If/when I buy, I'll find this thread and post to you.
Ed
Agree with the VSR. I was tempted to say I'd buy it from you if you didn't find it worthwhile, but you might really be from New York. It is funny to see your ambivalence. I had the same jitters before I dropped the $350. That is the subtitle of this thread: Coping with tool ambivalence. LOL
Yes, tool ambivalence. I don't want to spend the money and collect another object here.
I've changed from just half a dozen years ago when I would eagerly buy things regardless of likely frequency of use. I have a half dozen Lie Neilsen handplanes. I have an Ulmia workbench. I've burned out over this 150 year old house, and other things, and just want to get the place done without spending the most I can spend and without collecting more objects. I have this desire to move on.
It takes far too long to reach that attitude. Try to resist the slippery slope of being jaded. Work on the endgame with this floor to demonstrate you learned something. But get it done.
Strive for damn good and fast today. Save the area under the baseboards for the perfect job you will do 20 or 50 years from now.
The pad sander at Home Depo won't gouge your floor and works pretty fast. Not as fast as the drum but fast enough.
Thanks. A pragmatic get it done attitude is what I have been trying to nurture. It's amazing the downward spiral motivation can take over an extended period of years. I have a lot more to do around here than has been conveyed. There's still a month and a half of Summer warmth, and then the Fall. I will post here if I get the Bosch, or anything else for that matter.
I used to be in flooring.
When sanding a floor was needed,we used a professional floor sander,who you may know use a dedicated floor sander,I have seen these in hire centres,they operate from a standing position.Worth a look.
Re: My concern about the paint is whether a 4" belt sander will be able to take it off.
Remember the drum is only 8' wide.
Think of the surface area of each machines paper. Then think how much pressue is going to sink into that wood with that gnarly sandpaper and the accompanying anxiety that drum is going to provoke. Freaking exhausting.
Hey BTW this guy I spoke of used a teak oil finish on the floor. I thought it worth repeating on a project as you describe.Second BTW there is no way this set-up could ruin your floor. The frame acts like out-riggers on a canoe thereby keeping the sand paper only the height you have adjusted it to. It wil not allow that dig-in effect.
Go for the Bosch. What a treat to use!
Powerful and precise for a belt sander. Great at closed quarters and never bogs down, I did my grungy floor of 2800 sq. ft. douglas fir and great results.
I see that machine worked well for you. What were you sanding off of your floor? I have a few layers of paint.
The floor had at least five coats of varnish...really tough stuff to remove. I used 50 git belts to get rid of the majority of the varnish and worked up to 100 for a really nice finish. The original finish was cheap varnish, as far as I could determine. I finished the floor with Minwax fast drying floor urethane...three coats. Looks fantastic and even in the heavy traffic areas there are no scratches....well let's say only a few tiny hair-lines.
Good luck :)
And I am back because after I posted that the preceding message it struck me that you said 2800 sq ft! That was one heck of a lot of sanding with a hand tool.
Doesn't mean there isn't one out there but I've never seen a PC 352 or 362 with a sanding frame. I've never saw the need- the 362 is heavy, let the weight of the sander do the work. It's important that the platen is flat; there's a link in this Fine Homebuilding review on doing just that- http://www.taunton.com/finehomebuilding/pages/h00050.asp
I'm sure you can make a frame but if a sanding frame is essential, the Bosch may be the better choice. Fwiw, Tool Crib/Amazon has the PC 362VSRK for $199.99- comes with case and a cleaning stick.
It may have someting with the sense of control over the tool. Some folks seem to have a better touch. I tend to do fine, but end up with a gouge or two. Thought the frame might compensate for a breif lapse of attention or distraction (please no lectures, just being honest) and a gouge.Thanks for the suggestions and links.
No lectures from me lol, years ago youth, inexperience, and a cantankerous Craftsman belt sander made for a few gouges but fortunately I was able to feather the areas in. No doubt a sanding frame is good insurance. Switching to the PC improved my results. On horizontal surfaces with the heavier weight of the PC sanders (I have a 352VS and a 362VS) I've found far less need to bear down and it's easier for me to get consistent results. On vertical surfaces that weight and the swinging bag of the PC quickly become liabilities. I've used the Bosch 1274DVS and like it particularly for exterior trim (fascia, cornerboards etc) because of it's light weight, fixed bag and compact size. If the Bosch were to be my only sander, the frame would be a definite yes. All my humble opinion of course- I know folks who dislike the PC's because of their weight and feel. Best to try 'em out if you can or at least handle them to find out what feels right for you.
Thanks for indulging me.
Thanks for the feedback JC. I'm going to contact Porter Cable. I'll get back to Tool Talk with their reply.
You thought the Bosch was underpowered? Mine almost rips my arms off if I lean on it... Much better than the pc's I've used. My Bosch has an adjustable front grip, seems to be pretty comfy to me. The coments on comfort seem to be very general. Try to put your work at a comfortable level for the task at hand.
Edited 5/13/2005 11:36 am ET by try5077
Try5077, Are you using the 4X24 and if so do you have allignment problems?
The belt tracking seems to be fine but when I push the belts a little to long the tracking seems to drift, but I think that has to do with the hot belts more than anything. I want to try some new 3M blue ones but I have a ton of 4x24 that were donated to me by a hardware store closeout - Master Mecanic Brand and old style 3M. Wear them out fast.
Edited 5/13/2005 1:19 pm ET by try5077
Have you tried Klingspor- every bit as good if not better as the 3M purple belts imho and cost less $ too. Changing to a graphite platen should help the belts run cooler and using a cleaning stick really helps extend the life of the belts.
The Bosch that I felt was underpowered was a rental, so it might just have been old and tired. (Like me these days)
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