Replies

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 20, 2003 06:55pm | #1

   For the finest finish, you might try wipe-on (dilute ordinary poly 50-50). It'll still need some sanding/steel wool, but the thinner coats help prevent the unwanted runs and bubbles.

   ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

1. 
   Joecraftsman | Jun 20, 2003 07:21pm | #2

   Thank you for the advice, can you suggest what type of rags to use?  I have yards of new cotton jersey but I know this releases too much lint, are old diapers the best and where would one normally find them?

1. 
   NormInFujino | Jun 20, 2003 07:36pm | #3

   I'm probably not the one to tell you what's "best"; I've read people recommend paper towels, and I've also used old t-shirts. I'd imagine old diapers would be good, too, so long as they weren't too raggedy.

   ". . .and only the stump or fishy part of him remained."

   Green Gables: A Contemplative Companion to Fujino Township

2. 
   BenM | Jun 20, 2003 08:00pm | #5

   ... are old diapers the best and where would one normally find them?

   Try old babies.  They also work best when they're clean.

2. 
   forestgirl | Jun 20, 2003 07:46pm | #4

   I recently finished a piece with wipe-on poly on the outside and brush-on water-based poly on the inside.  The wipe-on is easier to apply for a smooth finish, but it takes several more coats to build to thickness because the coats are thin.  Since it needs to dry for 4 hours between coats, this process can take a long time.

   I've tried the foam brushes for poly, and really didn't do well with them -- got bubbles, didn't like the feel, couldn't really feel the varnish coming off the foam the way you can with a brush.  A high quality chisel-shaped brush with good flagged tips has worked much better.

   Brushing on varnish isn't like brushing on paint, there are lots of little details involved -- have you brushed varnish before?

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   Joecraftsman | Jun 20, 2003 09:53pm | #6

   Thanks for the reply, I have brushed on oil based varnish before, I'm trying to find a way to brush it on more smoothly in order to cut down on sanding between coats and at the end. 

1. 
   johnnyd | Jun 20, 2003 10:18pm | #7

   You might want to try Varathane or Mautz.  This Varathane lays down and self-levels better than anything I've ever used.  I use a $12 china bristle brush.

1. 
   Joecraftsman | Jun 20, 2003 10:50pm | #9

   THank you for the helpful comments

2. 
   HenryVIII | Jun 24, 2003 06:40am | #24

   I do a lot of large case work, and use water based poly almost exclusively.  Foam brushes are magic for me.  They leave very few "brush marks", and are very consistent in the way they load and lay the finish.

   Two observations:  If you can do it, lay the case / desk / whatever on a table such that the surface you're laying the finish on is horizontal.  Apply a thin coat first, sort of a sealer, and when it's dry, then lay on thicker coats.  Don't sand any more than you must between coats -- just enough to make a white powder come off the last layer.

   The oldest trick in the book:  If you must apply finish to a vertical surface for some reason, turn the case upside down before applying the last coat.  If, in the unlikely event that you have a sag, no-one will see it.  No-one expects a drip or sag to go UPWARD.

   Of course, I'm commercial ( I avoid the word "professional" when describing what I do) so water based stuff is best for me, whether it is stain, dye, or finish.

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 24, 2003 07:03am | #25

   Hi 'Enery, thanks for the post.  I've only used water-based poly once, very recently, and didn't try the foam brush on that one.  Maybe the next sample boards I do, I'll give it a try.  Beats having to clean an expensive brush each time it's used!

   Brings to mind a question I've had for some time now -- wondering about the exact technique for  "scuff sanding".  When I sand between coats using a rubber or wooden block, or Heaven forbid just my hand, it simply doesn't feel right!  Recently, I bought one of the 3M gold sanding sponges 320grit, and that felt like scuff sanding.  What's the secret when using a sanding block?

   [PS:  Am also noticing a big difference in the foam for brushes.  Some seems soft, more whimpy, bigger cells maybe?]

   UhOh, who's permission do I need to hijack this thread?

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 6/24/2003 12:07:23 AM ET by forestgirl

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 24, 2003 06:49pm | #29

   It basicly depends on the reason for the sanding. If it is to level the surface, then using a backer block of some type is the way to go. If all you are doing is scuffing in preparation for another coat, then a soft sanding pad of some type can work fine.

   For me, almost all my table or cabinet tops are sanded using a wooden block with a glued on felt pad from an old cowboy hat. I have a number of different sizes. Vertical and curved parts are general sanded sanded with green scotchbrite pads.

2. 
   HenryVIII | Jun 24, 2003 10:57pm | #30

   Couple of things:  You have to sort of revise your mindset when using waterborne poly, especially after a lot of time using oil - based.  I had a heck of a time at first.  One thing is that waterborne dries so fast that the chances/danger of getting dibs stuck to it is about zero.  The other thing is that if you put the next coat on within about 24 hours, depending on the ambient conditions in your shop, you don't need to scuff between coats at all.  If I'm doing a production run of doll cases or such, I wait 3 - 4 hours between coats max.  I don't want to get into a long song-and-dance about long chain polymers, so I'll just say I've had good results using that rule of thumb.  On the other hand, maybe I'm just "easy pleased."  I use high gloss for everything, and if the customer wants satin or matte, I go at the final coat with green Scotchbrite after a couple of days curing.

   Re: foam brushes, some finishes load the brushes too much to use successfully.  I had occasion once to use Behr exterior water-borne primer and paint (I don't like to think of that even at this late date... :-(( ).  I found that if you are brushing a liquid that penetrates deeply, like some primers, and at the same time has a lot of solids, the brush weighs about 8 pounds after the third dipping, and won't spread worth beans.

   Another solution is to get some of those pads they sell for trim painting windows and such.  They have a very short bristle -- 1/8 inch long or so, and some have a sponge backing.  I have a buddy that swears by them for waterborne poly and stains.  You have to keep a wet edge, but they leave virtually no "brush marks".  If your surface is horizontal, the poly will self - level in short order and leave you a nice build up.

   Hope this helps,

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 25, 2003 05:55am | #31

   'Enery, that did help -- I try to recoat in about 4 hours, but sometimes it'd be nice to do a coat at, say, 6pm, and then put the next one on at 9 or 10 am the next morning.  Sounds like that would be OK.

   I've used those little paint pads (for painting, not finishing) quite a bit and really like them.  Will probably try one for finishing soon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   RW | Jun 20, 2003 10:32pm | #8

   Good varnish brushes, from most to least expensive - badger, ox, white china, black china

   Poly tends to do much better thinned a little. I've decided after brushing it enough that about 10% thinner goes a long way towards leveling things out, letting bubbles out before it skins, and avoiding that laminated plastic look.

   "The child is grown / The dream is gone / And I have become / Comfortably numb "      lyrics by Roger Waters

4. 
   Len | Jun 21, 2003 01:34am | #10

   I was taught  the rule of thumb for selecting brushes is synthetic bristels for man made finishes. ie polyurethane, latex.

   Natural bristels for organic finishes. ie. shellac, oil.

   With that said. There are a number of types of brushes on the today that work for both. The real key is the quality of the brush and then cleaning them well after your done.

   Foam brushes are great if you don't want to clean up after but a lot of time the polyurethane breaks down the foam. Then you end up with little tiny black things in your finish. Yuck...

   Len

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 21, 2003 04:34am | #12

   Len, the rule is synthetic bristles for waterbased finishes; natural bristle for shellac, lacquer and oil based. Poly varnish is just an oil based varnish with a polyurethane additive for greater scratch and heat resistance.

   You can use foam brushes for water or oil based but not for shellac, lacquer or exotic solvent finishes. These finishes use solvents that will eat up the foam.

   For the smoothest flowout with waterborne finishes, a pad or foam brush tends to work best.

   For smooth flowout with oil based varnishes, a thinning of about 10% with mineral spirits or naphtha will be required. However, for the beginner and even many experts, the best way to a smooth finish with oil based varnishes is by making a wiping varnish and wiping it on. Brushing varnish to a smooth finish takes training and practise.

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 21, 2003 08:20am | #13

   Howie

      "Brushing varnish to a smooth finish requires training and practice".

      Yes it does. And a whole boat-load of patience and understanding. I personally think poly gets part of it's bad "wrap" from the fact that most don't have that patience and understanding and how to tone that plastic look down. Done properly, I have seen it fool a few folks as to what finish was applied. ha..ha..

   Have a great week-end...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jun 21, 2003 06:36pm | #15

   I initially learned to apply varnish in a boat yard. There was a week of practise on to cardboard and then scrap before I was allowed near a customer's boat. A good varnisher can lay down a finish that looks like a mirror. It's a misnomer to talk about "brushing" when you are applying a varnish. The better term is "flowing".

   The best guy I ever saw was an independent. He got twice as much as any other finisher for a job. On an interior, he would do all his sanding and prep work in one day. He would seal all the access areas, install a filter in a forward porthole and a small fan in an aft porthole. Just bringing in the vacuum hose and using a soft brush on the vac and a hand brush would clean up all the dust. Then he would leave quietly leaving the fan running.

   Next day he would show up, vacuum his brushes, cans containing the finish, etc, and remove all his clothes. He would carefully go into the boat. and begin work. He wouldn't come out until he was done. Even with the fan, he would come out reeling--but, he would be reeling some nights from the things he smoked and drank anyway.

   When sober, he could put on a finish though.

   Edited 6/21/2003 5:11:56 PM ET by Howie

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 21, 2003 09:52pm | #17

   Howie

      Excellent story about the boat finisher. Thanks for sharing it with the forum. Hopefully, some will pick up some ideas from the narration on eliminating all the dust as possible before proceding with the varnish.

      I do not have spray equipment nor a finishing booth. I get kidded about keeping the shop so clean. As you, an probably others know, there is a reason for that. If I were commercial I would have to go that route, but being a struggling amateur I feel it unnecessary as I have time and the patience to prepare properly. I have never laid a perfect finish. As you paralleled with the golf story, I just keep plugging away for that perfect game. I will say that my finishes are a bit better than they were 30 years ago. I struggled a wee bit back in those days as anyone starting out without any formal training or the literature that is available now.

      I used spar varnish for a few interior purposes from about 78' thru 80'. Couldn't figure out why it wouldn't cure completely hard till someone enlightened me. Just wasn't satisfied and began to avoid it. I metioned it to Tage Frid in a seminar in 1980. He laughed and said, NO-NO-NO. That was the day I discovered the difference in spar and interior. I'm blushing. <G>

      Maybe you're onto something. Perhaps if we drink heavy and smoke ground up corn flakes, that perfect finish could be attained. I mentioned it to the "First Lady" and she shook her head and sent me to my room for the day. The good news is my room is the "shop". I think I'll survive the ordeal. ha..ha..

   Have a great week-end and enjoy...

   sarge..jt

2. 
   SgianDubh | Jun 22, 2003 08:32pm | #18

   Ha, ha, Sarge. "Perhaps if we drink heavy and smoke ground up corn flakes, that perfect finish could be attained."

   Perhaps you should have said that if you drink enough and smoke enough wacky baccy almost any finish will look good at all times to you--  even the thick, chocolate chip, smeared on style seen on some furniture, ha, ha. Slainte.                                                                                                                    Website               

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 22, 2003 09:11pm | #19

   Sgain

      The ground up corn flakes and the wacky-weed is the same thing. Just an old expression from back in the 60's that was used sometimes as an alternative. At least that's what I read somewhere. he...

      Your statement contains truth. Could sit around for hours admiring the phycho-delic qualities of a piece of garbage an not remember what those qualities were the next day. ha..ha..

   sarge..jt

4. 
   Kevin | Jun 24, 2003 01:12am | #20

   Could sit around for hours admiring the phycho-delic qualities of a piece of garbage an not remember what those qualities were the next day. ha..ha..

   That sounds more like someone was smoking some dried wacky shrooms to me... Not that I'd know anything about that. LOL

   15 years clean coming up in late August. Guess I finally grew up. LOL

   Regards,

   Kevin

5. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 24, 2003 05:19am | #21

   Kevin

      Congratulations Kevin. Don't even look back. You made the correct decision. I quit using any kind of self abuse about 25 years ago. Didn't have a problem with it. Just decided that I didn't need for a problem to arise in the future.

      Yep. I did a lot of things 35 years ago that I consider totally stupid now. I do think it's called maturing and growing up..

   Keep up the excellence...

   sarge.. john t

6. 
   forestgirl | Jun 24, 2003 05:54am | #22

   "I did a lot of things 35 years ago that I consider totally stupid now."  Me too, Sarge:

   drinking too much

   riding a motorcyle for 2 years (well, not totally stupid)  

   riding a motorcyle after drinking too much!

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 6/23/2003 10:55:47 PM ET by forestgirl

7. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 24, 2003 06:06pm | #28

   Jamie

      I guess it's called growing up if you make it that far. "If I could just remember all the first names of the ladies from the 60's and 70's." I guess loss of memory comes with the territory also. ha..ha..

   sarge..jt

8. 
   Kevin | Jun 24, 2003 07:04am | #26

   Thanks, John. I wouldn't go back even if I could. I had a lot of fun and saw the world. But, I also dug a very deep hole that in some ways I'm still digging out of. All things considered though, I don't regret any of it because it made me who I am today and I am happy with that. Besides, I've got tons of true stories to scare and amuse my kids with. LOL

   Regards,

   Kevin

9. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 24, 2003 06:02pm | #27

   Kevin

      It goes to show that "the cream always rises to the top"...

   Good day... off to work..

   sarge..jt

5. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 21, 2003 03:42am | #11

   woodhobbyist

      If you use the poly from the can intead of wipe-on, stir it well. Don't get over-aggressive or you will cause bubbles. Pour what you think will be used through a strainer to get any contaminated particles out. Then cut the can mixture or Mini with mineral spirits. 1 part mineral spirits or naptha to 9 parts poly. This as mentioned will also reduce bubbles.

      Use a good quality oil brush (china bristle, black or white doesn' matter). Do not use a water based latex brush unless you're using water based poly. Load the brush and start about 3 inches from one end. Work back to the end and then stroke smoothly to the other end. Soft even strokes at a slight cant. When you have covered, wipe the brush gently to get excess off and tip the existing poly. Hold the brush vertical and stroke it lightly with the grain. This will even it and decrease any bubbles that have formed. Make the first coat light. It's purpose is to fill the pores an is only a base coat.

      Allow to dry properly and sand lightly with 320. Next coat can be applied. Same method. After the second I rub it out with 0000 or 000 steel wool. Clean it throughly before the last coat. The third coat is the final. Over that is over-kill. I adjust the finish on the 3rd coat with what-ever I'm attempting to achieve as far as sheen. You may decide to leave it be. You may want to 0000 steel wool it with mineral spirits or 400 or higher wet-dry sand-paper.

      Do a test sample as you go and work the sample first to see what results you get. Then attack the "real deal" after you are satisfied with the "finesse" method that best gets the final result you are looking for. This is the method I have been using with poly for years. Others methods will vary. ha..ha..

   Good luck...

   sarge..jt

1. 
   forestgirl | Jun 21, 2003 06:16pm | #14

   Sarge gives an excellent description up above.  At the risk of sounding like a publishing company marketing agent, I'll recommend getting Jeff Jewitt's book "Great Wood Finishes" -- he provides a detailed description and pictures to illustrate what all that looks like.  I've read it at least 20 times!

   A couple of tips from his book to add to Sarge's description:  when you "load" the brush, don't put the bristle in more than 3/4 of the way -- keeps the finish from building up so much in the upper, harder to clean, part of the brush.  Also, he recommends, before loading the brush, that you:

    "whack the brush" on the side of a table or your hand to dislodge any loose bristles or debris and then

   dip the brush in the appropriate solvent (mineral spirits in this case) -- dip it all the way up to the ferrule, scrape off the excess and wipe the brush with a clean rag.  This step makes the brush much easier to clean later.

   The use of a back-light will greatly improve your results.  It's the only way to really see well enough to catch all the missed spots and inconsistencies.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Jun 21, 2003 09:22pm | #16

   Jamie

      Nice touch-up. I not only "whack" (ha..ha..) the brush, I actually take a pair of scissors I keep in the shop and clip any stray bristles that protrude. When your applying the actual varnish, that won't matter. But, when you "tip it off" the stray bristles can leave a mark if your not paying extreme attention. When I finish that I "whack" (ha..ha..) the brush and run a brush comb through it to rid any dislodged bristles that may be caught in the middle.

      Then, as you stated; dip the brush in mineral spirits you have already prepared for brush cleaning. I do it outside (Atlanta weather) so I can sling the brush violently up and down. The thin mineral spirits will come out without having to wipe it.

      I'm currently building an 18 Century micro-wave table ( ha..ha..) and am finishing all the pre-cut pieces before assembly. When I use the procedure I've mentioned, I only do one piece at a time. If you move on to a second peice, it will not get the same even coat as the brush has loaded from the first. I clean the brush throughly and let it dry. That way I start the second piece with that same dipped in mineral spirits brush as I did the first and get the same basic amount of varnish on all peices on each coat. Am I over-precautious? I have been accused of that. But... Time is on my side as an amateur. ha..ha..

      Sell some John Smoltz cards would you.. His wife is an ex University of Georgia cheerleader. Hey, they need the money. <G>

   Have a great day retail and personal...

   sarge..jt

6. 
   nigelUsa | Jun 24, 2003 06:10am | #23

   My method : Pre-sand to 180 grit and light wipe with damp cloth. Using a nylon brush of high quality ($25) and water based poly. two coats as is from the can. Very light sanding after 2nd coat. Damp cloth to wipe over. Third coat of finish. Very light sand, damp cloth wipe over.  And then using a clean cloth dipped in the finish I wipe over to leave a thin coat with out bubbles. Sometimes I repeat this last stage for a deeper finish.