Which carving tools for furniture
KiddervilleAcres
| Posted in Turning and Carving on
Hi Folks,
I would like to start carving but have never done any B4. My goal is to carv on some period furniture that I am/will be making. Shells, acanthus leaves, fans, etc.
I’m as ignorant as an oyster when it comes to carving. I don’t even know what kind of carving you would call this. I’m guessing it would be relief carving?
Sorry for the vaguery here but as I said, I don’t know ehere to begin. Any help would be most appreciated.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Replies
Wood carving DVDs might be a good starting point. You get to watch what the teacher is using and see how they approach the projects.
I liked "Beginning Woodcarving" by Everett Ellenwood
http://www.ellenwoodarts.com/video.htm
I also liked Nora Hall's DVDs.
--Whit
Bob,
Glad you are interested in furniture carving. I have some knowledge in this area, in that I can give you some suggestions on where to go to get excellent information.
1) there is a man named Lee Grindinger on Knots who is a top-notch carver. Do a search on his name and read his posts. His handle is "LeeGrindinger", not surprisingly. Then go to his website and browse:
http://www.furniturecarver.com/
2) then I recommend that you go to the website of Chris Pye. It is at:
http://www.chrispye-woodcarving.com/
I believe that this is an excellent website for a beginning furniture carver to go to get info on what to read, what tools are needed, what great carved furniture looks like, etc etc etc.
3) then go to the website of Nora Hall, which is at:
http://www.norahall.com/
Nora's website tells you of her large set of video tapes. I have seen four of them and they are a great way to learn furniture carving. It is a way of getting cheap lessons from a great carver. I believe she now lets you "buy" her tapes by paying a small amount of money and then she gives you unlimited access to that tape via computer for a month. Check it out to see if that is still in effect.
4) it is good to have a few books. Chris Pye had a two volume set on Carving tools. Look on Amazon. It is absolutely comprehensive. If a person said to me, "I only have enough money for one book on learning to carve, what book should I get." I would recommend Richard Butz's book "How to carve wood". I may be the only person who recommends this book, so let me give you my rationale. He takes you through all types of carving: whittling, chip carving, relief carving, and carving in the round. In each chapter, he gives you three or four specific things to carve, and tells you exactly which tools you will need, and gives you very good instructions. To me, this is a very good book to start with.
However the Butz book will not be liked by sophisticated furniture carvers. They will be more impressed with the works of Dick Onians and Fred Wilbur. I have these books and they are WONDERFUL. They give much less "step by step" instruction, but they help you out with furniture and architectural carving. I recommend:
- Dick Onians _ Essential Woodcarving Techniques
- Fred Wilbur - Carving Architectural Detail in Wood
If you go to a library and read what carvers recommend about tools, you will find that each recommends the tools of the company that they are affiliated with. BUT if you read again, I believe you will find that far more of them recommend Pfeil "Swiss Made" gouges more than any other brand. In 1968, I bought a set of 12 Two Cherries Carving Gouges. They are great. Since then I have only bought Pfeil gouges. I don't think they can be beat.
I did something which you might want to play with. It will get you frustrated. I went to all of the carving sites and listed their recommendations on the first set of gouges you should buy. I made an EXcel spreadsheet of them. There is very little agreement among them. Let's talk about that later. I have to go now. I hope this has been useful to you.
Enjoy,
Mel
PS I also have a book on how to carve pumpkins that you might like.
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Man those sites certainly put one in perspective as to where they are in the carving pecking order. I've seen posts from Lee and his work is incredible as they all are.
Was having problems bringing up Chris' site but found him by Googling.
I guess the training DVDs are a good place to start. I'm off to the library after work later today. I think they can get DVDs as well.
Thanks for your help.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Glad you found the websites to be useful to you.Best thing to do is "not to worry about it", just start carving, but even then, it is nice to have a "starting point". Here is one thought on that. Each of the authors recommends a particular set of gouges. Chris Pye also has a book that takes you through a set of relief carvings using the set of gouges he recommends. That is nice. If you buy the gouges recommended by the book by Pye, you get frustrated. The nice thing about taking the Nora Hall approach is that she actually has lots of videos. These really help when you are getting started. It is good to see her carve a shell or a bunch of grapes. To be completely honest, while I like being able to watch Nora, her audio track is often not that helpful. But all told, it is, IMHO, better than just a book.After you start with either Pye's set of gouges and his book, or Nora's set of gouges and access to her tapes, you can get some more gouges. The ones you get depend on what you want to do. If you are going to do mostly Chippendale carving, then you don't need the big gouges. Indeed, if that is what you are going to do, you should contact Ray, since that is what he does for a living. Maybe he has a book that he recommendsFinally, here is a problem. After a while you see that a certain cut that you need to make can be made with a number of different gouges -- not just one. The pros seem to be able to do anything with whatever is around. While that is an overstatement (the only one I have ever made), there is more than a grain of truth to it. To a large degree, it doesn't matter whose recommendations you take on the first gaugest to buy. But it is nice for the book you are using, to recommend the gouges that you have bought.I hope this wasn't too confusing. I was confused when I went through this initially. It took me a while to realize that I needed to learn to love the confusion. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I see you revel in that carving stuff. Like Bob, I will have to make an effort and try it as I feel inadequate. A course is the answer (it's winter soon, after all).
Have you tried letter caving? Being unartistic, it seemed like a reasonable place for a novice cack-hand like moi to begin (lot's of straight lines and other easy shapes). Perhaps a bit of chip carving as well?
As you can see, the whole subject makes me nervous. :-) I have carved bowls....... (big and crude, they are; you can see a bloke made them. Suitable for gruel). I used a gutter adz, a carving axe, a spokeshave and two Ashley Isles gouges with lethal edges).
There are chainsaw carvers in the woods north o' here.
Lataxe
Actually, carving letter forms is probably one of the most difficult types of carving I have ever done. Leaves, shells, etc can hide a lot of ills by subtle changes if there is a bit of tear out due to grain issues.
Take care, Mike
mike,
Amen, brother. Hate those over-runs on letter carving. They're hard to hide!
Ray
Lataxe,
Glad to hear that you are interested in carving. I believe you will be very good at it. Carving, like all of woodworking is a very personal thing. We all approach it differently. I see in you a great joy of life. You have an effervescent personality. If you let that outgoing personality spill into your carving, you will product some great stuff. Others are worried about mistakes, and errors and such. I like to approach carving with fervor and passion. Carving is a romantic thing. It is much different than making furniture with nice square corners and tenons that glide into mortises with a piston fit. With carving, you can express yourself with your hands the way you express yourself in writing -- with an unparalleled flair. If you do that, your carvings will look much different than if you approach it as a shy six year old who feels he has to color between the lines. Carving will let the REAL LATAXE emerge. I can see it now. There will be showings in a local art house entitled "Lataxe unchained". I can hear your carving motto "Let the chips fall where they may!" (maybe you should go for a stronger motto than that). In any case, I am sure you will enjoy it, and you will be happy with the outcome. Like I said to Bob, I recommend the How to Carve book by Richard Butz. It shows you how to chip carve, relief carve, carve in the round, and whittle, and the projects are fun and interesting, and he gives good instruction for the beginner. Of course, any book will do. Also, try Nora Hall's website and "rent" her videos via the internet. Let me know how it goes. I will be glad to be of any assistance that I can. As a minimum, I will cheer you on!!!!Let us start a carving club. We will call ourselves the "Master Carvers". By definition, Master Lataxe, you are one of the charter members, as is anyone else who would like to join our august group. I certainly hope that Lee Gringinger joins. After all, he really is a Master. Have fun. Keep me posted.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Despite your kind offer I will forego membership of any club and also the sticking on of a label, especially one that begins with "Master". If only label-wearing produced competancy and wishful thinking altered truth, then the world would not be full of incompetants like me (and even more not like me). :-)
I will pursue those references you gave, although I feel it in my water that carving may be best taught by showing "in the flesh" rather than via book-larnin'. I am also wary of videos and such, as they tend to be edited to show only successful outcomes and none of the nuances. Perhaps in the meantime one should just have-at a lump o' lime, to see what happens.
Where is there is a week's starter course in carving for furniture, in Britain, I wonder? I must find out before the nights draw in. Perhaps Bob will come too and we will holiday.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
You are absolutely right, in my opinion: the absolute best way to learn to carve is to spend time with a good carver. Take the course!Lataxe, I have a REAL question for you. You have some "nice" planes. From what I hear, one uses two types of wax on a plane, one on the entire plane to keep it from rusting, and one also puts some harder wax on the sole during use to make it move smoother. What kinds of wax do you recommend? Lie Nielsen recommends camelia oil. A friend of mine recommended Renaissance wax. Others said just use furniture or car wax on the entire plane. What sayest thou?Also, what wax do you put on the sole for reducing friction. Some say candle wax because it is hard. Will a cake of beeswax do? Someone else said a cake of carnuba wax because it is harder. I need some wisdom here.Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel & Lataxe,
Just use Butchers wax, it's appropriate don't you think?
I was just thinking, something I probably should keep to a minimum, but if we all chipped (pun) in a small pittence perhaps we could entice Brother Mel to give us some lessons?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres, waxing his sole.
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/20/2007 6:56 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
you said:
"if we all chipped (pun) in a small pittence perhaps we could entice Brother Mel to give us some lessons?"You were speaking to Lataxe who is richer than Bill Gates. He can't entice me with money, but I would give him all the lessons he would want if he would just give me a few hours with his Marcou planes, and teach me to talk like he does. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bob & Mel,
Oh yes, I am the rich Lataxe, ha ha.
In fact, I am nobbut a poor old pensioner; but one who knows how to save the mickles until a Marcou-sized muckle is in the piggybank. Somedays I do without food or even whisky, you know!
Of course, my Madcoos will last until the sun burns out whilst them things o' yourn will fall to bits in a decade or ten. (I intend to live at least until the sun burns out, to get full value from the pension scheme). So, in terms of pence per plane per year, I have got some startlingly good bargains then. We pensioners must be Careful With Our Pennies.
At present I am trying very hard not to go to the tool porn catalogues and turn to the carving pages......
A search of the web doesn't reveal much in the way of woodcarving courses in Britain. However, there appears to be some kind of course offered by the local "college of knowledge" run by the Local Education Authority (local government) in Lancaster, a mere 6 miles away. No details yet but I will be ringing them up tomorrow.
Here's hoping there is something in their course relating to furniture rather than to the more art-oriented sculptural carving Adam mentioned. That Grindling bloke was amazingly good but imagine all that stuff draped on a G&G clock! Nah.
Lataxe
PS That Ray can certainly do frou frou well, though but. I gawped in admiration at his website. His scuttle-leg thing has alarmed me however and I'm now too scared to sleep. Why is all old furniture dark and threatening? Why claws on a ball and not a nicely-turned ankle in a silken slipper, eh, eh!? (Must be me).
Lataxe,
If you are looking for some good examples of more modern carving than the Chippendale style, look in the three websites that I gave Bob in my initial response (Chris Pye, Nora Hall and Lee Grindinger). Lots of nice stuff which isn't as "dark and scary" as Chippendale style furniture. This is getting scary for me to. I believe I can understand your writing now. Have fun.
Mel
PS you said that there is not much in the way of carving tools in your area. Ashley Iles is UK and it is VERY good stuff. Chris Pye flacks that brand.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Them lovely brassy thangs of Philip's come with a weird gun oil on them that Hiz Excellency uses. It smells of fish and drives the cat crazy so I tend to replace it, eventually, with camelia oil on the plane body and bits.
I use a special Liberon wax on the soles - it's sold for use on machined metal surfaces such as TS or bandsaw tables, to keep them both smooth and protected from rust. It is more or less liquid at room temperatures and has the happy quality that it brings cast iron and other metal surfaces to a fine slipperiness but without leaving any discernible or transferable wax that might get on to a work piece.
The stuff seems to be mostly beeswax but there is some kind of chemical addition in there, as it has a very volatile whiff. Perhaps it's just a rust inhibitor.
On a polished plane sole, the Liberon wax doesn't last that long. It lasts best on cast iron, which seems to "soak" it up slightly. However, I have taken to polishing plane soles with that autosol chrome cleaner, which seems to impart some kind of slippy but leaves no discernible residue. It makes the wax work better, somehow.
I am wary of using a harder wax like candle (parafin) wax on plane soles, as this might leave a thicker coating which may well get on to the wood surface. One might not notice - until the finish begins to fall off or the glue fails. Perhaps carnuba would be safe, if it was polished off very firmly. But it is rock-hard stuff.
Lataxe
PS That bloke that said planks told him what to do was probably delusional. I find it a better approach to "tell" the plank what I am going to do with IT. Of course, I am a dozy peasant lacking in artistic sensibilities, so cannot hear plank-whispers. I do like to try and use grain and colour to best advantage, though, even with a lack of plank-advice to make my mind up for me. (Perhaps there is a special hearing aid........)?
Edited 9/20/2007 8:44 am ET by Lataxe
9619
I'm afraid I'd like to try it as well.. however my artistic skill is near totally absent.. I even sux at drawing stick figures. That's why the dupicarvers and such appeal to me.. I understand they leave things a little rough that's best finished up by hand.. that has an appeal to me. I'm not afraid to use my hands just afraid my horse might wind up looking more like a pig or a dog than a horse..
any advice for me as well?
Frenchy,
Please don't call me 9619. That is my street address. I didn't have much creativity when I picked a screen name. Given your ethnic name, I guess I could have called myself "The Wood Wop". I just wrote a long message of encouragement to Lataxe. Please read it. From now on, you will be "Master Frenchy", one of the original members of the Knots carving club, which began on this day of Sept 19, 2007, a day that will live in history. Read my original message to Bob and the one to Lataxe, and you pretty much have all of the advice I can give. I really hope you guys find it useful in getting started. Most of all, DONT WORRY ABOUT MAKING FIREWOOD. Carve a lot. The more you carve, the more fun it gets. Have fun with it. Do it with a flair. Be proud. Your work will get better and better. And Master Frenchy, please let me know how it is going. We can really pep up this "carving" area of Knots.
Enjoy,
Mel
PS I am really happy you are interested in getting started in carving. Don't let anything stop you.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
I don't worry about doing the actual carving.. I suspect that with practice I could succeed. What I fear is my absolute lack of artistic skills. as I said my dog looks like a pig and my horse might be an elephant with a flowing tail..
Aside from that my proportions would usually be all wrong..
I've tried the trick of reducing things in size or enlarging them but that has still resulted in childish proportions and scale..
The good carvers all seem to be able to draw a gene that is totally lacking in me.
What are you looking to make? I think that the elusive artistic gene definitely comes into play if you're carving ducks, birds or landscapes. If, however, you're looking to make queen anne or chippendale-type pieces I don't think it will come into play as much. Patterns are readily available. Once you have the pattern, the rest is pretty much just tracing. You may need to pencil in a curve here or there once you've started the initial shaping, but that's not a significant skill. I'm nowhere near making a couple of frogs sitting on a piece of driftwood. But I think a ball and claw foot is only a few trials away from having something I will be proud to put on the gallery here. (let the record show that I will be using someone else's pattern.)
http://www.amazon.com/Making-Classic-Carved-Furniture-Queen/dp/0887405886/ref=sr_1_1/105-0956238-3766053?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190219290&sr=8-1
I've recommended this in the past and will do so again. I really liked all of the illustrated steps. He goes into good detail. The project is very specific, but your skill set upon completion will be much broader. My next project will have none of the carving details included in this book but I'm confident that I will be able to complete them. I bought my first gouges at the same time I bought this book.
Edited 9/19/2007 12:36 pm ET by MattInPA
Hi Matt,
Thanks for the info. Got a lot of research to do. Earmarked your reference as well as others.
You folks are the greatest! My wife wants to get into it also. Looks like a great winter coming to The Acres.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
Yep, relief, 3d, chip etc all can come into play depending on the furniture you'll be doing.
You've gotten some great recommendations as to sources. For tools, those Nora Hall recommends will suit you. I think Lee Grindinger has a recommended list as well. Note that you probably do not need an entire suite of tools. Get a few basic ones they recommend and be willing to add to it as need be.
These Marples I bought in 1969 or so and even though I now have a couple more newer ones to choose from, I still reach for these often.
View Image
Take care, Mike
Mike,
Interesting that you mention the Marples chisels. A while back I started collecting a few of them, not for carving but more so to use as bench chisels. They were what I called my fine ones!
A friend of mine wanted a Maltese cross for a top ornament for his door knob on his woodstove. So I went on the WEB and found a pattern, resized it to fit the size he needed, traced it onto a block of cherry that I had and cut it out on the bandsaw.
The edges were too sharp, I actually cut my fingers in the process of cutting it out! Took out the Marples and relieved the edges a bit. This was most enjoyable to feel the chisels slicing the wood. I realized that I wanted to explore carving.
I've sliced a lot of wood with all manner of tools, both powered and with hand tools but carving gets into your blood it seems. You can feel the wood with a chisel.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob and all,
A book that hasn't been mentioned yet is Paul Hasluck's Manual of Traditional Woodcarving Dover 0-486-23489-4. Written in the early 1900's by a Brit, it has down to earth info that seems to have been taken from those in the trade. While the style of the work illustrated may not be to your taste (Gothic revival, Art nouveau) the techniques are applicable to any type of furniture carving.
By the way, it is possible to carve intaglio shells with a straight gouge. The bevel gives enough clearance for a fair amount of digging out before the handle whacks the ground.
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Desks&spgmPic=1&spgmFilters=#pic
Ray
Ray,I have Hasluck's book, and I have read the entire thing. I read some parts a few times. I think that it should be a part of any carver's library, but possibly not the first book that one buys. To me, it is the encyclopedia that one keeps referring to until it becomes dog eared and then you keep referring to it. It has great material on history, and great examples of carving on just about anything you can think of. However, I'd recommend that a newbie start with something like Butz's book, or like "Woodcarving: the Beginners Guide" by Wheeler and Hayward.The opinions stated in this message, along with $4.50 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. They may also be hazardous to your woodworking health. Ray, the reason that I am responding to your message is as a lesson to the newbies of Knots. Here is the lesson "If you ever see an amateur hobbyist woodworker disagree with a professional whose work has appeared on the cover of FWW, who are you going to believe?." MelPS - by the way, I am worried sick about the fact that you have posted photos of your work on the web and have allowed FWW to publish some of them. Aren't you afraid that someone will steal your designs? I know that I am planning to go home and reproduce most of your work this evening. If I can't get the CNC machine up and running, it will take me well into the weekend to finish. By the way, I am not just stealing your ideas, I am working on a way to integrate your designs with those of Richard Jones to come up with a new "avant guard Chippendale" style which has the classic lines of your work but which is more in keeping with modern sensibilities. I know what you are thinking. You are concerned that the angel has returned to her hangout spot near the Festools at the hardware store. No such luck. That was a one time thing.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Heck Mel,
I don't have those other works you referenced, only suggested Hasluck 'cause it is what I have, and I found it helpful, not 'cause I thought it is the be-all-and-end-all. In other words, in addition to what others recommend, not instead of. Feel free to disagree with me, won't hurt my feelings atall. I been married 35 yrs, I'm used to being disagreed with!
If you are gonna copy something of mine, chippengecarven Sie dis, mit diener kerbengeschnittenhabenshouldergesplittenischesteel:
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Other&spgmPic=3&spgmFilters=#pic
I stole this myself, from an ad in Antiques Magazine. Give that ole CNC a chance to show its stuff!
I am trying to come up with an avant garde design of my own, to use that piece of crappy cherry wood Bob sent me.
Cheers,
Ray
Hey Ray,
Which side ya gonna use? I like the other side from the one in the pic.
Let your mind be open and tell me what y'all see? Might wanna email the answer............
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Please forgive the fact that I am about to brutalize the vocabulary of your trade.
On the drawer that you posted: are the flowing leaves that surround the center applied? or is it all done in relief? If it's done in relief (I think this is the correct term) how do you come up with an acceptably flat surface for the drawer front? If it's applied (which I think it is) how do you brace the piece while carving it? How do you attach it without leaving glue everywhere? Same question for the edging along the bottom rail.
Finally, in picture 3/7, How do you make the pillars that are along the two corners? Are they turned and quartered?
Hi Matt,
The leafage, or vines, are applied to the drawer front, after carving. They are carved by sawing out the vines, then gluing the cutouts, to a scrap board, sandwiched with a sheet of paper. The paper in the glue joint allows for easy separation after carving. Then the carving is split off the scrap, and glued to the drawer front. It is glued and bradded on, being careful with the glue to minimise squeezeout.
The scrolls and shell on the apron, however, are carved from the solid. Old examples are done this way, I believe it was to make the details on the apron more secure against bumps and knocks. Of course it is easier to flatten a surface with plane and scraper when you can get to it from one side (edge), as in the case of the apron.
The quarter columns' capitals are turned and quartered, again by gluing up four blanks with paper in the joint, so you can split apart after turning, instead of sawing, yielding a true corner, and minimising loss of wood, as you would to a sawkerf, and planing true after sawing. The fluted columns between, in this case, were turned as a unit between the capitals, and the flutes were carved into the columns. Longer columns, as in a chest of drawers, were often worked separately from the capitals, and the flutes worked with scraper (scratchstock) or molding plane. I sometimes work longer columns as a quarter round on the edge of a wider piece of stock, work the flutes, then rip the column off the edge, and apply, between the previously turned capitals. You will see all kinds of variations in quarter columns, some are most definitely less than a quarter of a circle, and I've seen one case where the capitals were turned and applied, and the fluted column in between was carved right into the corner of the leg!
Ray
Ray, Mel and ALL,
Might I impose on you to recommend what profiles of carving chisels to start out with. I've been reading books about 18th C. furniture which talk about carving fans, shells and acanthus leaves, which I want to practice doing. Also, I have some clear pine boards that I thought would be good to start with. Is this a good wood to practice with? It's readily available to me and cheap, like me!
I've also searched the Inet about relief carving. I think carving is very much a matteer of personal preference as to tools employed. I slao see that there are basic shapes incorporated into the final design.
In other words, do I need a wall of chisels to get started? Seems to me that I need some basic profiles in varying widths and add as I need them.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
An amateur's recommendation: Pick out what you want to carve first. This will dictate your selection. I would not recommend buying a set unless it's a set designed for your project specifically. The only tool that you are nearly certain to need is a 'v' tool. I would recommend the smallest and steepest. I would also recommend all straight gouges.
Once you have the pattern for your first project, just match up the curves on the outlines to the sweeps of your gouges. (Just don't get 5 gouges with widths of greater than 3/4".)
Bob,
For starters, I would not recommend any of the "set" that I've seen advertised. They seem to have shapes and sizes that aren't useful for the type of carving I am called upon to do.
Trying to remember which tools I bought first, when I started out (see Mel, I can remember back that far!) they were the old Dinosaur brand, bought at the La Brea Tar Pit, I think.
Herre's what I use the most, in the order I got them:
#9 gouge, 13mm
75* vee chisel, 8mm
#1 skew chisel, 15mm
#5 gouge, 18mm
#8 gouge, 8mm
#11 veiner, 3mm
The above was my basic "set" that I assembled over probably the first five years that I was working full time.
As I began to carve more, I added
#2 fishtail gouge, 15mm
#11 veiner, 5mm
#5 gouge, 12mm
#16 vee chisel 35*, 4mm
#3 gouge, 6mm
#9 gouge, 3mm
#1 skew chisel, 25mm
These are the tools I use the most, probably 80-90% of the time, for shells, acanthus leaves, and moldings.
As time has passed, I've accumulated a couple dozen, maybe, others, in between sizes, and sweeps, bent and spoon, that are most useful when I'm matching something for repairs etc.
As Adam pointed out, it's easier to let the sweep of the gouge determine the shape of a shell's ray or a leaf's outline, than to have to sculpt it with a smaller deeper gouge and get it smooth and fair. All the same, you want to first choose the gouges that have the shapes you want to carve!
Hope this is helpful,
Ray
Ray
A recommendation I got from Wallace was to learn to draw a volute that looks good. Break the curves down in small segments and see what kind of sweeps you would need to do a nicely curved volute. This has served me very well over the years and I have come back to it and laughed at how accurate that simple advice turned out to be.
Now the hard stuff: where to grind ?? front or back? Do you round the tip or leave it flat? I agonize over that. In some cases, I have the same sweep with different edges. This comes with time. Carving is a big learning curve.
Sharpening: I know many will cringe but I like to use my buffing wheel. For some reason, I lose concentration when I leave the carving too long to rehone or strop. I have found the wheel and a little compound gets the edge back super fast.
What's your thoughts on that area?
dan
Howdy dan,
I hone with a hard Arkansas slipstone, at the bench, dropping back to a fine India stone if need be, first. It takes only a couple minutes. I tried buffing the edge, but the mandrel with buffing wheel is clear across the shop, plus, I had trouble with dubbing the edges over- left handed klutz.
Gouges I have mostly bevel-out, the gentler sweeps with a slight back-bevel, rounding down to the edge; but one or two are in-cannel for coping sash etc.
I try to keep the edges pretty much straight across, even ground back in the center somewhat for deeper gouges or veiners (opposite of a "ladyfinger" grind) to avoid tear-out in deeper cuts. Same for the vee-chisels, which I have honed to a sharp corner on the outside (bevel). The inside corner, of course isn't forged sharp, so this yields a tiny point, hook, or, forgive the vulgarity, "####" at that point of the cutting edge. While this appears wrong, it doesn't seem to me to affect the cutting of the tool, and I much prefer the sharp inside corner of the resulting cut.
You are right, there is a huge learning curve to carving. The carved ornament on period furniture in larger cities was frequently "subbed out" to carving shops that did nothing else day in and day out. Nowadays, most of us are lucky to carve for a week or two out of the year. The price we pay is inefficiency, a lot of wasted motion.
Ray
PS yesterday I spent a (long) day visiting the eastern rendezvous, about 5 hrs away, up near York PA. Fantastic work being done by a group of people known only to a very small circle. The buzz was Gordon Barlow's new book. Have you seen it?
I have not seen Gordon's book but I would like to get my hands on a copy. In time. I like the history part of the CW and I enjoy visiting the battlefields when I get some time.
I flew helicopters out of Andrews AFB when I was on active duty. After I dropped the VIPs off I would check out the battlefields in the air and scope out the terrain. You gain a tremendous respect for the logistics required to move large formations across some tough terrain. Gordon has dedicated his life towards understanding the period. Speaking of writing and dedication..
I found a guy who is moving away from woodwork these days(smart??) and he might clean out his book collection. One of the books he has is an out of print book by John Bivins. Don't know how big his name goes outside the rifle world but he did extensive carving outside the rifle world.
John was at MESDA most likely when you were going to WS. He left WS for Willmington to do architectural carving on a big commission schedule. I believe he was down there several years. Unfortunately, cancer cut his years short and all we have are his pieces and his writing. Both in high demand.
Bivins is mentioned in the circles with Gusler. They got the whole rifle thing up in the 1960's and it just got huge before the Bicentenial Celebrations. Bivins was commissioned to build some Lancaster rifles that had some very very nice carving. His stuff is off the charts. Don't know that I have seen any others carve walnut like him. Just crisp and shiny.
Like to hear more about the rendezvous.
Dan
Edited 9/23/2007 4:04 pm ET by danmart
dan,
Gordon 's book is basically a celebration of the CLRMA , and associated craftsmen. Many if not most of the photos in the book are of items from his collection. There were only 2000 copies printed in hardback, and most have sold already. There is already talk of a 2d printing, in softback.
I never had the pleasure of meeting John Bivins. I've seen some of his rifles, one of my clients has a couple in his collection; and you are right, his carving is incredibly crisp and clean.
Ray
Hi Bob,
Just to chime in on this one. I started carving about 3-4 years ago with similar intent. I found that going to the hobby store and buying a couple blocks of modeling clay really helped both my skill development and my visualization. When I started, I tended to not relieve a peice enough to get a solid shadow line. If you can sculpt a model before hand, you can model how the light effects your design. It also lends as a quick tool to reference against. just beware that if you scale down a sculpture and scale up the carving, your proportions can sometimes be skewed a bit.
As for chisels, I picked up 3 chisels off the auction site and went from there only purchasing as I have needed to do so. Even then I have found that the more esoteric chisels are not touched very often.
Sorry if I'm repeating what others have said.
You'll have fun no matter how you approach it. good luck.Magnus
"Remember, a bad carpenter always blames his tools" -Joe Conti-
Bob,
You have gotten some very good advice. I agree with the man who said to get some modelling clay. EXCELLENT IDEA. It is easier to work things out in clay than in wood.Jimma gave you good info on Nora Hall's videos. The production quality is not good, and she often talks about things that dont seem to be relevant to what she is carving. Jim is totally and absolutely right with his description of the problems with Nora's videos. But I did use the same facts to arrive at the opposite conclusion. Buying a few of her videos is, to me, a great thing, if you don't have another good carver to watch who lives near you. It is invaluable to watch a good carver at work. Reading a book only goes so far. Despite all of the problems with Nora's tapes and DVDs, I still think buying a few is a good thing. You can always sell them on EBay after you are finished with them and get half of your money back. It will have been well worth it. By the way, if you can find some DVDs or videos from any other good carver, they would be just as good. I was merely suggesting that you get to watch a good carver for a while. The absolute best thing to do is to find someone near you who you could watch and get a lesson from. Ray's selection of gouges sounds excellent to me. I am just upset that he didnt give me that list before I bought my gouges. You are interested in Ray's style of furniture, so his recommended set of gouges should be "spot on". I have most of the ones that he listed. I will buy the rest. I often wait around for Ray to write something just so that I can go out and do it. Of course, I do the same with you, Lataxe, Metod, and Hastings. I would go further and recommend that you get your gouges in the same order that Ray did. (In two bunches or so). Now, to start another round of messages, why don't you ask how you should sharpen your gouges. :-)Mel
PS I loved the way you addressed the same questions on Chippendale carving to "Ray, Mel, and All". That is sort of like asking a question about playing the cello to Yo Yo Ma, Mel and All. It did make me feel good. Eventually I stopped laughing.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Mel,
You know I've been working with this stuff we call wood for a long time, in the neighborhood of 35 years; about as long as Fine Woodworking has been around. Yikes! It just keeps getting better.
You're right, I have been getting a lot of good advice.
It's about that first feeling I got when I attempted what I call carving. I go back to a post that I put up here in Knots about relieving some edges on a Malteese Cross that I made for a friend.
I cut the piece out on the bandsaw and the edges were really sharp, to the point of cutting my fingers as I was sawing it out! I thought this will never do. Perhaps I should use some sandpaper to soften the edges.
Mind working again, NOT to the sandpaper idea; edges too rounded and not crisp. Took out a 2" bench chisel and had at it. The feel of the wood slicing away was great. I must get into carving I thought. This was about a year ago.
Since then I have studied period furniture, much book larning. Made my first cabriole leg out of pine (something in a name?) as a practice shot and a prototype for a piece I will make from cherry. The book larning showed me pieces with carving on them there scuttle legs (read Chippendale or late Queen Anne), aprons and such and that got the mind going full time.
So now I want to make some shells, fans, maybe an acanthus leaf or more on my Queen Anne pieces. Not too much but just enough to add some detail to my pieces. A conservative by nature I am being a Virgo. No artistic ability as they say, but I say BS!
The most important thing to me is that I want to have fun doing it. Who knows, maybe some day I can post a piece in the Knots Gallery! A goal that I have set for myself.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/21/2007 8:25 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
I have another question; I know I'm a pain.
There was a suggestion I've seen here and on other discussions that one should experiment with clay/putty or some such material. Seems too soft to me. I'm thinking that I don't want to introduce another variable into the mix of learning how to carve.
My inclination would be to select a soft wood for practice with, such as pine, to get the feel of how to best work the chisels with the grain. And then work my way up to harder woods.
What say all?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/21/2007 9:00 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bass wood is what i usually hear recommended. I think pine is too weak cross grain and I've heard carvers say its sap corrodes or erodes carving tools quickly. (not sure about that one- just passing it on)I'm not sure if I could carve clay. I think clay wouldn't give you the feed back you would want. But if the clay is just a mock-up, that seems like a good idea. I think it would be worth buying castings of fine carvings. I think Allen Breed sells them.I would think you could find some sort of foam that would be good to practice on. You could get some high density foam that may feel quite a bit like mahogany. My friend Warren recommends green walnut as an excellent material to learn on. I'm currently practicing with bass and I like it.Adam
PS I didn't see it mentioned but there are ball and claw tool lists- I know Phil Lowe has one- pretty sure for the Swiss made numbering, and Mack Headley has one from a FWW article in the Sheffield numbering. I know you didn't mention balls specifically, but that might be a piece of data worth having.
Adam,
you didn't mention balls specifically, but that might be a piece of data worth having.
Indeed. That was an omission that slipped through. I definitely want to do some clawed balls. Thanks.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/22/2007 6:17 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
Adam is right. Basswood is a great wood to carve. The grain is almost non existent. (lindenwood) The clay is not for carving, but for making up the "master" of the think you want to carve. You work the clay with your hands and fingers and tools to get it about right. Then you use the gouges on the wood to reproduce that.Ray mentioned a great book by Hasluck. It is an older book. I responded by saying that other books are good for beginning carvers, but in your case, I was wrong. You are an avid reader. I recommend that you get the Hasluck book on Amazon. It has a very good chapter on making a model in clay. After you put all the other books away, you will keep Hasluck, just like Ray and everyone else does. The "greatest carver of all time" might be Grindling Gibbons. Look him up and see his stuff. There are photos of it in Hasluck. His stuff is unbelievably complex. He carved mostly in basswood, Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I don't like the clay idea for two reasons. (1) the wood can act as a back board at times. I don't know if the clay would do the same. More importatntly, (2) learning to carve the way the grain demands is extremely important. Chip out is a never ending battle. As a beginner, you constantly need to acknowledge it.
I have never carved pine. I have planed it. Planing pine vs. a hardwood is very different. I have to imagine that carving is the same. I don't think that you need to buy 50 bf in order to build confidence. carving a shell that you're happy with is much easier than cutting a dovetail that you're happy with, IMO. I bet that you would be happy applying the 4th shell you carve to your final project. Excluding the final detail with the 'v', they are quite forgiving. buying a few extra bf is probably worth the minor investment.
What Al Breed has called "ego wood", bass wood is the wood to start with. It's has a mild even grain, but you still have to basically go the right way. The only furniture woods you would carve (at least in traditional furniture) would be mahogany or walnut. Mahogany carves very well, but, particularly in present day. readily available form, is given to grain swirls and reversals that can give you fits.
By the way, Allan Breed teaches carving of the eighteen century and other hand skills and is an excellent teacher, as well as being a master craftsman. He's in Rollinsford NH (about 12 miles from Portsmouth on the Maine border.) Check out http://www.allanbreed.com
I'm off to catch some bass, I mean fetch some basswood.
As to the chisel collection it sounds like Rays suggested starting set is the way to go. Anyone have any suggestions as to brand(s) to look for? Am thinking of Ashley Isles, Pfeil maybe? Or should I start with a cheaper brand?
It seems that every time I try to cheap out it doesn't work. Also any thoughts on sharpening techniques would be most appreciated.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hey Bob, in addition to Pfeil (I own some, great tools) and AI, Auriou make some, as does Henry Taylor (own some), Stubai (own some), Dastra (and others). I wouldn't hesitate to buy any of those in the size/sweep/profile desired.
One thing to consider down the road...liely you will end up buying more than one brand--and maybe some vintage. My opinion is to simply purchase less of better quality than more of lesser quality.
Carving is one endeavor that I have seen people go nuts and purchase way too many tools to begin with. It's pretty easy to add more as needed.
Take care, Mike
Bob,
I believe the suggestion to use clay was to model it, and get some experience in seeing in 3 dimensions what you are trying to accomplish, rather than to carve it for the carving experience. I could be wrong but that's how I read it.
As far as brands, The tools I have are a hodgepodge of makers, some old, some new. I have Buck Bros, Pfeil, Heinkel, Hirsch, Addis, Cam, Butcher, Barton, Marples, and Lindner. They are all pretty good, the Heinkel (Twins) tools took a while to get back to hard steel, I think they were softened a bit in the factory by grinding.
I find pine a but crumbly to carve, its softness is a drawback, in a way, as it wants to deform in front of all but the sharpest of edges. A slicing action, sliding the edge sideways while pushing forward is almost a must as well. Bass, butternut, or mild grained (not ribbon stripe) mahogany are all relatively easy to carve.
Ray
Bob
You live in the land of maple. Some really good stuff too. I just came home with 300 feet of the stuff I found between St. Johnsbury and Berlin. I hunt trophy curl slabs but I buy green slabs of sugar maple if its quarter sawn. There's tons of it out there. I get help you don't get with just money. I trade choice slabs of walnut(some 18" wide and no knots-air dried ready to go). The graniteheads love it. We break bread, make a deal and nobody gets fleeced. Been doing it for 15 years. Find the guys making syrup. They know where all the jewels are and they can help if you "tap" into their knowledge bank.
Its a ridiculous story but in a nutshell- my old friends from Hannover. They have woodmizers and they travel from Burlington to Augusta doing custom cutting. They still boil sugar and get out in the woods. They tell me there's prettier wood up in the top end of NH than the stuff they see down in the lake region. You tell me??
If you want to test your edges, carve some of that maple. Go out to the wood pile and bandsaw some pieces flat, plane em' and get going. Forget that pine. If you're going to be a bear.. be a grizzly. There are guys in other parts of the country that would give their left @#$ for the stuff you are looking at. Bob sugar maple shines like a new penny when you have sharp tools - bank on that.
Don't mean to get too fired up but I love that maple that grows soooooooooooooooooo slow and tight. Its a gift.. go get it.
Dan
Dan,
I think you just got another source for tradin. Let me know what you're looking for in maple. We don't get much walnut up here. I've never had the opportunity to work with it.
Got a friend who's an old time logger, still uses horses to twitch 'em outa the woods. He has a knack for spotting figured wood. Now I must get after that sugar maple you talked about. Got some tiger maple drying upstairs over the garage.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Fair enough Bob. I keep the walnut on a 5 year drying cycle. Back up everybody.. I know you don't have to wait that long. Some of the pieces are as thick as 16/4. I'm in no rush.
In the past couple of years(age), I have found wet 16/4 slabs a bit too heavy for me to muscle around. That is a weak excuse after years of timberframing but I just don't have the energy these days. So... I am doing mostly 4/4 and 6/4 boards.
Depending on time, transportation and wood your on my trading list.
Not sure about the miles up to St Johnsbury but I will be returning to Alstead and Marlow next year. Couldn't transport all the candy back this year and its patiently waiting for me now. By the way, one curly board is 21" wide. I don't have a means of surfacing it yet but I can assure you I won't be ripping this down. This will be the one piece sides to a desk... I hope.
Dan
A little off topic but:
Have you been to a good cardiologist?
One of the contractors I do work with is in his mid sixties, and had been getting progressively weaker from year to year. Never any drastic drop, just slowly getting weaker and less vibrant. He complained to his regular Doctor about it, who just kept telling him he was just getting older, and shouldn't expect to feel like he did as a young man.
Saw a cardiologist, and the tests revealed that he had several clogged arteries on his heart. They put in a couple of stints, and he says he feels like he is in his thirties again. He is backpacking into the high mountain lakes to go fly fishing.
Any way, just a thought.
Bob,
This has been a great thread. I have learned a lot. But after reading all of it, I'd say the best way to get started is:
1) get some gauges. Use Ray's list.
2) buy some basswood. (the maple is beautiful, but I'd leave that until your second week (or month or year). Maple carves beautifully but basswood is easier to learn on.
3) CARVE A LOT!!!!!!!
4) save your first five pieces, no matter how bad they are. You might become president and they will be worth a lot.
5) do more carving than reading about it.
6) carve even more.
7) use clay for making models of what you will carve in basswood. Do this only when you are having a hard time visualizing what you are going to carve.
8) Enjoy it. Enjoy it. Enjoy it. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about errors. Just modify your carving to incorporate them.
9) Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
This has been a great thread. I have learned a lot.
No Kidding! I'm not sure how long it will take to digest it.
I really want to thank everyone for their generosity with their knowledge. I'm sure I'm not the only one who benefitted from all these suggestions and experiences.
Keep 'em coming so all can learn more.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/24/2007 2:44 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Energy might have been the wrong word?? Just had a check said OK.
Some of the boards weigh in at 100 pounds. I am only 155. Its always been tough.. maybe my "willingness" has wained.
dan
Dan,
I might know of someone with at least a 21" sander. There may be a possibility I can get access to it. It's in a school shop and I know the instructor quite well.
I'm about an hour from St. J.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 9/24/2007 2:37 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Paraffin is what Mom used to practice on. It is fairly hard, but doesn't have grain. The plus side is it readily remelts and you have a new practice piece.
She decided she wanted to learn to carve, after she found a roll of chisels and gouges I left at her house while I was going to college. Being on a pension, and rather frugal to boot, she decided that a big block of wax that was left over from her period of "artistic candles" would make a great practice blank.
She would save the shavings, and then remelt things into a solid sheet again.
After she got good at it she decided to start on real wood. She wanted a new back panel for the park bench she had on the front porch, with blue birds sitting on a limb carved into it. Not having read any books on the subject, she went to the lumber yard and bought a piece of Larch the right size for the panel she wanted on the bench.
I don't think she could have chosen a more difficult wood to learn on. Larch has wide growth rings, with the winter wood being very hard, and the summer wood being very soft.
She did manage to do a very nice first carving though.
Hi Folks,
Well I'm embarking on tool buying research. The first tool will be a knife and my brain is getting numb with all the choices. After that I have decided to start with Rays basic set, then add as needed.
As for a knife, has anyone heard of these folks?
http://www.capeforge.com/styles.htm
I'm not even sure which blade profile I should start with. Also, is it a good idea to get one that has interchangeable blades?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's not a knife. THIS is a knife:
View Image
-Crocodile Dundee
Edited 10/10/2007 10:27 am ET by saschafer
Bob,
First get that knife that Steve showed - the one that Croc Dundee used. You can do some mean carvin with that beast.You asked about buying carving gouges and a knife. So what are the parameters of buying any tool?
IMHO, they are:
1) as good a quality as you can afford
2) easy to sell if you decide you don't want it.Try to sell a brand new Stanley plane that you just bought. You will take big percentage loss. What are the brands of top quality carving gouges:
Pfeil Swiss Made, Two Cherries, Auriou (Chris Pye pushes these), Dastra (Nora Hall pushes these). There are others.
I would stay away from Henry Taylor. Woodcraft is selling out of them. I don't have any. I hear that they don't hold an edge well. Now to my second criteria. Before I buy a tool, I would like to know that I can sell it at not too much of a loss if I tire of it. On EBAY, there are two brands that consistently sell for about what they were bought for, even years after they were bought. Those are Lie Nielsen and Pfeil Swiss Made. There have been other threads which have explored why this is true. It doesn't matter why. So perform an experiment. Go to EBay and type in "Pfeil Swiss Made" and you will get all of their gouges and knives and scorps, etc. Every day for six days, print out the list and what each sells for. I believe you will find that the Pfeil Carving Gouges will sell for just about full retail.Try this for each of the other brands. You will that there are fewer of those others for sale than of the Pfeils, and that they go for lower prices than their original cost. Because Pfeil are such good quality, and because they are a liquid investment, they represent the best way to go. I hope you find that useful.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Ray
That cherry desk is just sweet. I really like that carving detail. Subtle and crisp. I haven't carved much cherry but I imagine it like everything else out there: the sharper the better. I'm going to try and find a copy of that book.
Dan
Dan,
Thanks for the kind words. Cherry is a hard wood, but easier to carve than curly maple.
http://www.davidraypine.com/portfolio.php?spgmGal=Desks&spgmPic=5&spgmFilters=#pic
It's all good. Carved the Marines' EGA in relief, about 2" dia in paulownia once, that was a challenge.
Ray
I would like to start carving but have never done any B4. My goal is to carv on some period furniture that I am/will be making. Shells, acanthus leaves, fans, etc.
I'm as ignorant as an oyster when it comes to carving. I don't even know what kind of carving you would call this. I'm guessing it would be relief carving?
Bob
If you are willing to spend a few bucks before you invest in carving tools and begin carving, here's a suggestion to consider:
Look up American Pioneer videos on Google. Find Wallace Gusler's video on carving a kentucky rifle. I think its around 30 bucks. Don't get turned off -- not a rifle person.
Wallace was the Master riflesmith at CW for years but he was also the furniture curator for many years. He is not a researcher-- he is a great carver. The things he will show you starting with a volute and going into sharpening and gouges you need will surely impress you. Many guys who have come to me to learn some carving are started on this tape. I have not had a single one come back and say "I wish I didn't get that tape" after seeing it. Most have glazed over eyes.
Most of the stuff is roccoco designs, carving and leaves. You will look at this again and again. That's the beauty of the video.
Bonus: I have the tape. If you do not want to purchase this tape, I will send you mine. Yep. As an old granite head I will extend this offer if you have some hesitation to take this course.
The ball is in your court. Really Bob.. winter is coming and Kidderville will be under the white before you know it. Give it some thought.
Once you get the basics, there's a guy over in Maine(SE) Allan Breed. What a carver. He has courses. Let's say: you will be happy. Breed has some stuff in Fww -- look him up.
Dan
Dan,
The tape you recommend, is it the build a kentucky rifle or the volume 3?
Mike
The tape I was recommending to Bob was:
Relief Carving a Kentucky Rifle by Wallace Gusler. If you peck the "building a kentucky rifle" you will find other titles open. Go to Wallace Gusler and Carving the KR.
Building a Kentucky Rifle by Hershel House is great. It takes you thru building a rifle from the chunk of wood to the final finish.
I was recommending the Relief Carving to Bob as a reply to wanting to carve. Both of the tapes are very well done and there's just lots of information to learn.
Dan
Edited 9/19/2007 9:43 pm ET by danmart
Dan,
I'm on my dialup connection tonight but you can be sure I'll look up all the references that you gave me tomorrow on the DSL. Mel got me pointed to Lee, Nora and Chris and I have ckecked them out as well.
This place is amazing! So many thoughtful folks in here. The wife wants to get into carving too, she's the artist in the family.
I'm a Virgo so I fall asleep driving a bus!
I'd love to see that video just to have a look. I'm up here in the boonies and don't have many resources. I'll have to check out the local library to see what they have first.
It would be great to have the artist (wife) and I carving our way into some Chippendale. That way I can easily justify purchase of more tools!
Oh this might just be a warm winter.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Dan,
Them there rifles/guns are some sweeeeeeeeeeet!
Awesome work.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Who bulit those swivel barrel rifles?
Napie
I'm not sure which swivel you are referring to?? I posted a few photos of some recent work I looked at by 2 builders. I think the one you are wondering about was built by David Price. He's a builder in New Hampshire. I took some photos at Dixon's. David has a website I think.
I'm not a swivel builder. Currently, I am moving toward lighter stuff. I just finished an octagon to round barrel smoothbore with a brass patchbox. The finish wasn't completely dry .. sold.
Truthfully, it was more work than I planned on doing. In the end.. I made about 10/hour for the labor.
Time to go back to bookcases and entertainment cabinets to get some money for more rifle parts. People don't want to pay for labor.Its just one of those things.
Dan
Edited 9/22/2007 10:40 pm ET by danmart
Edited 9/23/2007 12:25 am ET by danmart
Bob,
I just tried doing some shells. I think you may need bent gouges for that, and I aint got none. Like to hear. I've read different guys recommend very specific gouges for different jobs. That's been helpful.
Otherwise, I think Chris Pye's advice boiled down to you need narrow, medium and wide gouges in shallow, medium, and tight sweeps, plus a skew (aint got one), maybe a veiner and a parting gouge.
It seems to me that carvers need lots of gouges for duplicating stuff. But for making something new, you can get away with very few tools. You just design your piece around the tools you have. So for example, I think Mack Headley recommended a #5 sweep 1-1/2" gouge for shaping the ball of a ball and claw leg. I think the trick is just to make that ball the size of that gouge. (tool slaving) I don't recall reading Chris Pye talk about this, but it sorta demystified carving for me a little. I still stink, but I feel I'm starting to understand it.
I also think being able to draw helps.
good luck with your carving! I've enjoyed it. I hope you do too.
Adam
Adam,
You talked about carving shells. Shells come in "convex" and "concave". If you carve one that is Convex (sticks out above the surface), you can actually do all of the carving with a straight chisel. Can't do that with a concave shell. It is more fun to have a bunch of gouges, but it is fun to try to approximate smooth curves with a straight chisel. Heck, try it with a bench chisel.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Adam,
You made a comment that has me puzzled, "You just design your piece around the tools you have", and very curious at the same time.
Of course you may not be privy to my intent and one goal I have, that being the making of period furniture pieces, specifically Queen Anne and perhaps some Chippendale.
Actually after a nights rest I would like to try my hand at merging the two together. I'm not sure how to put this but I recall that towards the end of the QA period there were those who applied carving to this style, please correct me if I'm wrong.
My thinking is that carving applied to the Queen Anne style would be beautiful. It seems that carving is sort of a personal thing/art that I'm having a difficult time deciding on my approach to it.
I have no carving chisels (yet) but am experimenting with my bench chisels and am looking for some gouges to complement them. I've also got some videos ordered via the library on the way.
Thanks for your insight. Am I making any sense about this carving thang as it relates to Queen Anne furniture?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
You said that Adam said,
"You just design your piece around the tools you have".I have a different take on that one. I thought it up after reading about Nakashima saying that one should look at the board and let the board tell you what to do with it. I believe that there is a guy who made rocking chairs who had similar thoughts, what's his name, oh yeah, Krenov. By the way, do you think that either of those guys stole that idea from the other?In any case, I hate to steal other people's ideas, but I like to use the ideas of others to help me be creative. So I said to myself, "how can I modify this idea and make it my own?" My conclusion was that I should ignore the board, and look at my tools and let them talk to me, and tell me what to do with the boards. My hammer kept screaming "NAIL THAT SUCKER". My screwdriver said: " ...censored...". My Lie Nielsen dovetail saw would say: "Watch that ROB Cosman DVD again and make some of them fancy dovetails". I figured that this approach wasn't going to be very useful because all my tools are too biased. Maybe Adam's tools are more open-minded. So instead of listening to my boards or my tools, I have decided to listen to my wife. She must read the Old Testament, because most of her statements seem to mimic God saying to Noah, "Noah, I want you to build me an ark. 367 cubits by 760 cubits, and be sure to use a wood that is water-resistant. ". She makes statements like "Mel, build me a step-back cupboard, 3' wide, 7' tall and 18" deep at the base, and curly maple would be nice. Windows on the top. Raised panels on the bottom, with the raised portion facing the outside. Keep it simple to allow the grain of the curly maple to be the star of the show." Come to think of it, maybe my wife is secretly watching my woodworking DVDs, and raiding my library when I am not at home. Is nothing sacred any more?MelI tried listening to my wood and to my tools, but life is much better when I listen to SWMBO.MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think I understand your goal.
Let me just pick a bone with Mel. You can carve with straight chisels or knives even. What I'm reading into Mel's comment sounds like sculpture to me. I know some really great carvers who make parts for the masterpieces in the museum. They are trained sculpters who, like Michealangelo, imagine an object trapped within the material and remove the material that is not David. These guys I know think very little about their tools. They need to be sharp, but knife, gouge, chisel, chainsaw, whatever.
That's not what I've seen Mack Headley do. He starts the shell with a semi circle scribed with his diivder. Then he takes 2 gouges (I think 2) and walks them around the scribed circle to define the outline of the shell. The shape of the elements within that shell are defined by the gouges, not a preconceived notion of the shell. When I do a ball for a ball and claw, the diameter of the ball is the sweep of my #5 gouge. Using this thinking, I think you need specific tools for specific carvings. That said, I don't think there are right or wrong tools. But someone like Mack would say, you use a tight sweep 1/2" gouge for this, a 1" gouge for that and so on. I think these furniture carvings are process based, process defined. I don't see it as the same as sculpturets not necessarily sculpture, if you are following me.
Don't read to much into this but I see furniture carving as more craft than art. I don't think just taking a chisel and going at it is the approach that was traditionally used. I'll bet its good experience, though.
Adam
Bob -- I have a difeent take on the videos by Nora Hall. She is without doubt an accomplished and greatly experienced carver from the traditional school of carving, but the production quality of the videos is awful. It is so bad that some of the demonstrations can't be understood as they are in shadow or obscured by a bad camera angle. I don't mean they are worthless, but it would be better to get them from a library or friend than to buy them expecting their quality to be up to professional standards. In some instances sunshine comes across the scene and washes out the image so you can't figure out what she's doing. Just my opinion of course. Jim
Bob,
I have not seen David Calvo mentioned. Try his website: http://www.davidcalvo.com.
Frosty
"I sometimes think we consider the good fortune of the early bird and overlook the bad fortune of the early worm." FDR - 1922
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