Replies

1. 
   lwj2 | Mar 09, 2005 03:35am | #1

   IMO, it's easier to fit a tenon to a mortise.

   YMMV

   Leon Jester
2. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 09, 2005 03:38am | #2

   The mortice chisel (router bit, drill bit, hollow chisel mortice bit, etc.,) that cuts the mortice is of a fixed width, and therefore mostly conveniently cuts a mortise of that width.

   You can adjust the thickness of the tenon to suit any width mortice with ease, but not so easy the other way about. Slainte.

   RJFurniture

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/9/2005 8:02 am ET by Sgian Dubh

1. 
   patternmaker | Mar 09, 2005 07:28pm | #5

   Good to hear from you. I thought that you were still in the grog shopWork safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬Thank you,Mr.Croney,where ever you may be.

   Work safely ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬PAT¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬

3. 
   WillGeorge | Mar 09, 2005 05:39am | #3

   "mortise first and the tenon last."

   His Mortise tool at the front of the shop by the heater in winter?  LOL

   NA!  RJ got it right!

   
   

   ---

   Edited 3/8/2005 9:41 pm ET by Will George

4. 
   MBL | Mar 09, 2005 07:21pm | #4

   Friend,

   In this method, and on circumstances used, it becomes irrelevant:

   1. Two cheap standard blades are fit with a spacer to cut the tennon on the table saw. It is always cut at that fixed measure of the gap.

   2. The spacer was designed, machine-shop built, and verified so that the cut matches a standard router bit, which cuts the mortise.

   3. The blades setup is reserved for that purpose. The router bit is standard and replaceable.

   It has proven well, so far, for a few years of use.

   -mbl-

1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 09, 2005 09:37pm | #6

   mbl,

   Interesting set-up.  Have you you used this to join a variety of woods?  The reason for my asking, is that, in my experience,  a comfortable slip fit in white pine will, at the same setting, be too snug in hard maple. 

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   MBL | Mar 10, 2005 01:08am | #7

   Dear joinerswork,The fit is not awful tight as is. It might be called a 'glove-fit', meaning the pieces are not hard to slip in and out, yet they don't fall off with graviy.The idea of cutting tenons as such is not original. What might be is the determination that the spacer be made specially to get such a convenient fit to be matched by conventional router bits.Do recommend it. It took two trips to the machine shop, and owning a digital caliper helped. It was not expenssive at all to make, either.Don't think that it'd be a problem with any type of wood, but certainly if anyone makes his own, he can have the spacer made to his tolerance. Because the blades are an unknown, it has to be custom made. You can make a 1/4" p.w. disk spacer first, just to make a cut. Measure the p.w. thickness, make a tennon, and add or substract from the measure to get your metal spacer made. For 1/4" router bit, the disk has to be less than that in thickness due to the off-set of the teeth. Once you have one disk, it will be very easy to get different ones, because the kerf of the blades is constant.Router bits may vary too, but not to a degree where it would affexct the function discussed.The blades are thin-kerf carbide framers as sold everywhere for skill-saws. Got a popular brand, just in case, but they will probably last forever.It is to be Kept in mind that the cut is 'rip' cut when selecting the blades. Two blades cutting at once call for few teeth per inch and thin-kerf due to the double burden of the cut.Bes wishes.-mbl-

1. 
   joinerswork | Mar 10, 2005 04:00am | #8

   mbl,

   Thanks for your reply.  As for myself I got one of the Vega router powered tenon cutter gizmos several yrs ago and haven't looked back.  I really like it, esp for cutting angled tenons, as for chair work.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   MBL | Mar 10, 2005 09:06pm | #15

   Dear joinerswork,Would you mind a brief description or a link on what the Vega fixture for making tennons consists of?Thank you.-mbl-

2. 
   RickL | Mar 10, 2005 11:59pm | #16

   The Vega jointmaker was discontinued years ago. Basically it's a horizontal slot mortiser. I use a slot mortiser as well but only use loose tenons. See also Grizzly G0540, JDS multirouter, Laguna slot mortisers, and others. Simple idea that goes back to European technology from the late 50's or and just beginning to get noticed here, especially with the homeshop folks. Fast and efficient. I can cut all the  mortises and put together a frame before you cut your first tenon.

   18171.28 For a pic click!

   Edited 3/10/2005 4:00 pm ET by rick3ddd

3. 
   MBL | Mar 11, 2005 01:24am | #17

   Thank you nick.You probabyle mean 'the next tennon', for the first one is past history.lol.-mbl-

4. 
   joinerswork | Mar 14, 2005 01:38am | #28

   mbl,

   My understanding is that the Vega jointmaker is no longer available.  It seems a shame, because it was a low cost machine that works well.

   The contact info that I have is:  Vega Enterprises, Inc

                                                     R.R.3, Box 193

                                                     Decatur Ill.  62526

                                                     Ph. 217-963-2232  Fax. 217-963-2246

   The thing consists of a router motor (you supply) mounted off-center in a disc that is in turn on a plate that is adjustable up-and-down.  The stock is clamped to a tiltable table that slides left-and-right, and is adjustable in-and-out.  By rotating the disc 180*, the amt of off-centeredness of the cutter determines the thickness of the tenon.  It's harder to describe than to use.

   Regards,

   Ray

5. 
   cherryjohn | Mar 10, 2005 04:27pm | #9

   This thread brings up a question I have.  I think I know the answer but Id like to get input on this.  A mortise and tennon joint in a soft wood like pine; 1/4" tennon set in 1/2"vs. a dowel construction using (2) 3/8 maple dowels set in 1/2".  Lets assume that the tennon is  1 1/2 " long.  Which one will be stronger?  Is it a moot point on a small table like a coffee table?

   Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   notDusty | Mar 10, 2005 06:27pm | #11

    CHERRYJOHN ,

           I have doweled the tenon as well especially on soft woods , this is one heck of a strong joint and gives the added torque factor of the dowels .I have used this on man door frames and such with no failures . Just another way to do it .So obviously you need to do the doweling first then the tenons .

                                  dusty

1. 
   cherryjohn | Mar 10, 2005 06:34pm | #12

   In soft woods I always use dowels.  It just seems stronger.  Maybe not in the shearing plane but the torqueing plane. Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   MBL | Mar 10, 2005 08:32pm | #13

   Dear friend,Although dowels are adequate for many purposes, from a technical point of view, most of the dowel to-to-the rest involves an end-grain joint, which would not be the strongest.In a tennon-mortise joint, it's the other way around.-mbl-

1. 
   MarkRD | Mar 10, 2005 08:47pm | #14

   The wood around the dowel will break long before the dowel. I just destroyed some old chairs and saw this first hand...On the other hand, the glue surface on the tennon would, it seems to be larger (depending on dowel diameter/length)Good question....Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

2. 
   4DThinker | Mar 11, 2005 08:58am | #20

   If the only variable between the two connections is the amount of linear 1/2" tall gluing area, the 1.5" long x 1/4" wide tenon provides more gluing area (3.5 linear inches). The two 3/8" dowels each have a circumference of 1.775" for a total of 2.355 linear inches.

   I made two sets of 4 sample corners in 3" wide x 3/4" oak for a project, then tested them to see which would fail soonest. I'd made a 1/2 lap corner, one with a 3/8" x 2"x 1" deep tenon, one with two dowels 1" deep, and one with a #20 biscuit.

   With one set of joint, I tried pulling them straight apart.  They failed in this order as I applied more and more force:   biscuit(pulled out of end-grain), tenon(pulled loose), dowels (broke), then half-lap (which never actually failed)

   With the other set I tried prying them apart like you might rack (parallelogram) a frame.  They failed in this order:   dowel (dowels broke), biscuit(pulled out of end-grain), tenon(broke end of side-grain), then half-lap (which never failed).

   Dowels used were compressed, and swelled in the hole with glue application.  Never actually came out, but they would break as the only connection between the two pieces.  Biscuits also swell when used, and would hold tight in side grain.  But they pulled out of end grain fairly easily.  The half-lap simply had the most surface area between the two pieces, and that means they were stuck together the best.

   When I want to have a butt-joint appearence, I use tenons.  But I also have an easy and reliable way to make them tight-fitting.  If you aren't good at making mortise-tenon joints, I'd use dowels or Biscuits or both.  They seem to offset each other's weaknesses. Dowels might snap but will hold tight. Biscuits won't snap but may pull out.

    

   Edited 3/12/2005 11:43 pm ET by 4DTHINKER

1. 
   cherryjohn | Mar 11, 2005 03:49pm | #21

   This is what I love about this place.  Ask a question and you get a very detailed answer.  I am evaluating The "end of the driveway" furniture market and how to make a profit at what I do in my shop every weekend.  To be successfull ( make a profit) the pieces have to be simple in design, well made ( to a point) and inexpensive.  The hard combination is the well made and inexpensive parts.  Its takes me longer to set up for mortise and tennons than it does for dowels and the FUF ......**** ** Factor.....seems to increase with mortise and tennons.  It seemed to me that the relative advantages of mortise and tennons would be lost on someone who defines "wood" as anything that is not particle board.  However I knew that if I asked the question I would get a very detailed and accurate answer.  Now I have to ask.........did you do this evaluation for your own information or was it for a wood working magazine article?  If you did it for yourself, are you always this inquisitive?Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   4DThinker | Mar 11, 2005 11:18pm | #22

   CherryJohn,

   I'm a college professor teaching furniture design to Interior Architecture students. I help 40 or more students figure out how to design and build one or more pieces of furniture each semester.  I did that evaluation so that I could give a definitive answer to that same question I hear periodically from my students.

   Yes, I'm always inquisitive.  It comes with the job.  Whatever we don't know for sure, we find a way to figure out.

   I'd love to do that joint test again, with photos and data, for any magazine that would be interested.   It could be much broader.  The samples I originally tested were all red oak, maple dowels, beech biscuits.  Other species might give different results.

   Dave B.

1. 
   cherryjohn | Mar 12, 2005 12:54am | #23

   Dave, rarely do I see as much information presented in such a clear ond concice manner.  You must be a good instructor.  Maybe I should sign up but my guess is you arent anywhere close to NH are you?  Thank you for your input.  I have already passed this information on to a friend of mine.

   If you guys at Taunton were reading this.....hire this guy to do some evaluations.he is GOOD!

    Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

6. 
   DaveinPa | Mar 10, 2005 04:31pm | #10

   That's like asking which came first "The chicken or the egg."

   I cut mortises by hand and the tenons on a tablesaw.

   Dave in Pa.

1. 
   dlb | Mar 11, 2005 04:01am | #19

   I have been experimenting over the past 2 days (between jobs) and, quite frankly, I have found it easier and more accurate to cut the tenon first, make my layout lines for the mortise from the tenon and then drill/chop out the mortise. That's wht I have discovered but if I am wrong I will stand corrected.

   Thanks for everyone's input!

   dlb

   .

    The Undisciplined Life Is Not Worth Examining.

1. 
   DaveinPa | Mar 12, 2005 02:25am | #24

   but if I am wrong I will stand corrected.

   Nobody is wrong in this case. It is just a matter of what works for you.

2. 
   turnin04 | Mar 12, 2005 07:56am | #25

   Hi, Being trained as a wood machinist, The Mortise Chisel comes in SET SIZES--  CUT THE TENON TO SUIT,  if to tight you can always ease the tenon. hope this helps. Ron

1. 
   dlb | Mar 13, 2005 06:36pm | #26

   Thanks for the input. I do feel more comfortable making the tenon then then the mortise.

   dlb

   .

    The Undisciplined Life Is Not Worth Examining.

1. 
   turnin04 | Mar 13, 2005 07:46pm | #27

   Hey dlb, wotever you are happy with, but it is easier to make a tenon fit a machined mortice, think about when making M+T with a scribe(ie moulding)  "sash frame-- door stile etc, well there it is, each to their own. Ron.

7. 
   Routerman | Mar 11, 2005 01:40am | #18

   Can't agree with that. I rout both and the fixturing for either sex of the joint is continuously adjustable. As such, it matters not which is executed first.

    Jigging/fixturing at the Router site.

   The Tenonmaker, as shown, uses 1/16" increment cutters to address the tenon. But with an edge guide in play (in lieu of the bearing guided cutters), any tenon thickness can be achieved.