i want to get a hand plane/s for the simple furniture projects that i do for my house (built in cabinets, desks, etc). i want it for “taking off sharp corners”, planing thin board edges, etc. i don’t want to (yet) get into surface planing or anything like that.
what should i look for? bought a book on planes, but must admit there are far too many choices to get one for each type of use.
any help would be appreciated,
thanks
Replies
It sounds like a really nice little block plane would probably suit your needs fine. Planes are like jellybeans; it's tough to stop at just one !
and i'm a tool nut!block plane you say? Lie-Nielsen, Stanley, # which.thanks
I really like the low angle block plane from http://www.leevalley.com. I've never tried the Lie Nielson plane but from what I hear they're first rate tools as well. Regards
Go to: http://www.lie-nielsen.co find the low angle adjustable mouth block plane.
It seems a bit pricey-- but you'll pass it down generations. Also you'll not regret the $$$ after you've used it awhile. It's well made and performs very nicely.
yikes!, oknow how to break this to the wife......heck, she wanted the bookcase!thanks
Before you panic, Garrett Wade is having a sale on block planes. These aren't as nice as Lie-Nielsen, and you'll have to spend some time tuning them up. But tuning your first plane is a good experience. If you hang in there, you'll treasure a L-N plane all the more.http://www.garrettwade.com/jump.jsp?itemID=111057&itemType=PRODUCTRp
Before you spend your money and time on a Groz (or Anant or modern-manufactured Stanley) plane, you might take the following into consideration:
About a year ago, the owner of the local Woodcraft asked me to do a hand plane demo for his store. He gave me a couple of Groz planes to tune up and get ready for the demo. To make a somewhat long story short, I spent a couple of hours trying to flatten and lap all the usual places that often need it...with only semi-satisfactory results, at best, due to rather generous tolerances in machining the sole, frog, etc. The best part was the iron: after polishing the back and honing the bevel, the edge lasted for about 4½ strokes on non-knotty pine before the edge rolled. Essentially the same thing happened with an Anant smoother, although the heat treatment of the iron was better than Groz's. The story of the Stanley #6 is one I'll save for later, except to note that I keep it on my plane shelf to remind me why I don't buy modern (post-WW II) Stanley planes....
So....if you decide to go with one of these planes, you should take into consideration that you're getting -- IMO/IME -- a poor quality tool that will require several hours of tuning just to get it workable, along with the cost of replacing (or perhaps re-heat treating) the iron. If it were my $$, I'd go for a vintage Stanley (Millers Falls, Sargent, etc) and tune it up or buy a new LN, Clifton, or LV.
If you're going to tune a plane, it should, IMO, be a quality plane, so that the end result is worth the time and effort put into it; the low quality of the Groz and Anant planes significantly reduces the probability of that happening.
Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 1/17/2007 3:13 pm by pzgren
Merl.....................
It's all relative........ Divide the cost into years of projected use. It's only pennies.
I guarantee you will be happy with this plane!! I aslo "Guarantee" once you buy one Lie Nielsen; you be back for more; Guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There are a lot of tools out there, and you'd probably get good service out of most of them. So if the $$$ is a real concern, then certainly buy what you feel is appropriate. I suppose a lot depends on how much your going to use it.
Happy shopping!!!!!!
thanks everyone"I aslo "Guarantee" once you buy one Lie Nielsen; you be back for more; Guaranteed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"that's what i'm worried about lol
Who ever dies with the most toys ........"Wins"
There are two kinds of people in the world. One kind gets into a sailboat for the first time and is disappointed that you can't sail directly into the wind. The other kind gets into a sailboat for the first time and is really pleased to discover that you can sort of sail into the wind (it's called tacking).Neither kind of person is "better" than the other. They're just different.If you're the first kind, then make a Lie-Nielsen plane your first plane. Don't look back.If you're the second kind, get a Stanley, toss some sweat equity into it, and look forward to the day you buy your first Lie-Nielsen (or an ECE Primus Improved).Rp
I think my philosophy was/is; shoot if I have better tools..........that makes me a better woodworker....."Right !"
Groucho, it would seem that you have a taste for debatable propositions.Rp
Ya think ?? Just trying to keep the blood moving; so my brain doesn't totally shrivel.
Riverprof,So, those who avoid new tools and fettle old ones are ruggedly adventurous and stubbornly independent, and those who buy new tools are looking for a quick fix?I think that the analogy is somewhat unfair. But let's settle the balance with one that is equally ridiculous.There are two kinds of people. The first kind has a friend in need of a car, loudly exclaims that new cars are for yuppies, encourages his friend to purchase any ol' late 70s Saab and get it to work himself. Then provides no further support. The other kind believes that the friend just wants to drive to work, and recommends a reasonable new car with a good service contract.
If you are the first type, recommend random purchases of old planes and self-taught fettling. If you are the second type, recommend a LV or LN plane.
Nothing wrong with either type, of course. ;) :)
The truth is, among those who buy planes, I suspect that the more crucial distinction is between those who do use them vs. those who don't, and in that case, you'll find buyers of antiques and LNs on boths sides.
-Andy
P.S. as a side note, my first planes were a mix of old ones and LNs. The LNs actually helped me learn how to fettle the old ones.
Andy,You've chosen a good metaphor. I'm going to change your late 70s Saab to a late 70s VW bus. Everything I'm going to say holds for the Saab as for the bus.Yes, I would point _some_ people toward a bus. For $5000 you can get a fairly dependable bus. That might be $4500 purchase price and $500 upgrades, or $1000 purchase price and $4000 in maintenance. As it happens, there are several online communities that live to help people get their buses on the road and keep it there. (The same thing holds for Saabs, but I suspect that late 70s Saabs are getting pricey.) So would I do this? Damn straight I would -- and have! A $5000 vehicle makes much more sense for some people than monthly payments on a $30,000 vehicle.A woodworker who whistles through his teeth -- as did the person who started this thread with a question -- when he sees L-N prices doesn't really need a whole lot of people sending the message that it's either expensive planes or forget about woodworking. That's BS.As for the winking, there is no winking. If money is not an object, having fun by trying to get an inexpensive tool to work well is just as valid a way to go about things as buying a quality plane.Rp
Edited 1/17/2007 2:48 pm ET by Riverprof
By the by, College of the Redwoods advised students to arrive with a Stanley low angle block plane -- maybe they still do. Maybe your standards are higher than theirs, Andy, but mine aren't. It will be a while before I rise to their standards.Rp
Hi Riverprof,As for the lack of winking, my wish is that this wouldn't be taken so seriously -- it's just a discussion where different opinions are represented. However, I found the sailing analogy to be condescending. It's also seems to contradict some things you said in the shoulder plane thread a little while back.I agree about the Stanley block plane at College of the Redwoods. There, the beginner is given very close, expert instruction on how to tune the plane. Presumably, that advise is worth paying for -- a LOT more than the cost of a new LN plane! Yes, winking is called for here! ;) Then they make their own wooden planes, also with much in-person guidance. All for the cost of $3,766 per semester for out-of-staters (very reasonable for CA residents, however -- I guess they can use the saved $ to buy a LN block plane. The cost of the Hock irons they ask each student to acquire is greater than the cost of a LN block planer, BTW. The power tools as College of the Redwoods include, for example, an Inca jointer/planer combination machine. Do you realize what they cost (used -- new ones are no longer available)??? Laguna bandsaws, too. Somewhere, there is a list of high-end machine tools used by the students there. So of course, their standards are indeed higher than mine, and indeed pricier! Certainly not the inexpensive start-up cost that you are proposing.I've checked the prices of vintage Stanley low-angle block planes -- in user condition, they often exceed $50 --- assuming that one is not spending time scouring yard sales and taking risks on eBay (which probably a good place for someone with some knowledge to search). New Stanley's are not much cheaper. Fine Tool Journal ask $75 for the bronze low-angle block plane -- $20 savings. That is a really nice plane for someone to start with, and is more of a "sure thing" than advising someone to spend money on a plane that might never get used if they don't manage to fettle it. I know that there are cheaper ways to start but I think it is misleading to tell a beginner to acquire an old plane in unknown (to them) condition --- too many variables out of the control of the advisor. At the very least, provide a picture of what the fettling might involve in the worst case scenario.And BTW, I'm a long-term VW owner and would never in my life recommend a VW _bus_ to someone who needs a reliable car to get to work, without being specific about the model year. I wouldn't recommend any VW to anyone who isn't prepared to pay high maintenance costs or do some serious DIY work. But luckily, we're talking about a $20-$135 purchase, so winking really is called for. The wood costs for most projects are higher than that. I bet with a $7000+ College of the Redwoods Degree two-semester course, one can make amazing furniture out of half-rotten barn boards, a cheap block plane, and a couple of Hock irons.Some people get into this to spend their time seeking out antiques and fettling tools; others spend more time building furniture. There are some who manage both -- like Bob Smalser (see his recent chisel handle article in FWW) but they are a rare and special breed!
;)
;)
;)
-AndyEdited 1/17/2007 3:48 pm ET by VTAndy
Edited 1/17/2007 3:52 pm ET by VTAndy
Andy, I think you're just flat wrong about the sailing metaphor. No condescension intended. The people who are surprised that they can't sail straight into the wind are optimists. Now who ever said there's anything wrong with being an optimist? Optimists are wrong some of the time, according to the law of averages.The other folks are pessimists. That's me. I'm always surprised that things tend to work out better than I imagined. Including cheap Stanley planes. Your other points are all well taken. But, as a teacher, I'm convinced that anyone can learn to do anything if he or she is motivated to learn. So I would not hesitate to recommend a bus to someone who wanted inexpensive, dependable transportation -- just so long as they are willing to learn.Rp
Edited 1/17/2007 3:54 pm ET by Riverprof
Riverprof,
I'm a teacher as well, and when faced with a question from a student, I try to focus on the core of what they are asking, and not add too many additional processes to steepen the learning curve -- unless I know the student well enough to know that they are looking for those extra challenges. My sense with powertool users looking for a small inroad into handplane use: its enough to learn to set up, sharpen, and hone a perfect specimen. If you add more processes to learn, who's to say that one should stop at searching for old planes, knowing what prices are fair, and fettling them? Perhaps one's very first plane should be homemade -- adding all kinds of steps. Or maybe they should forge their own iron? Perhaps they should do some mining as well. Of course I am kidding.Clearly we don't agree and probably won't in the future.
Edited 1/17/2007 4:52 pm ET by VTAndy
Andy,You're paying attention to one thing, and I to another. I was fine with the advice on this thread until the initial poster intervened with "Yikes! What am I going to tell my wife."As far as I was concerned, that changed the discussion. Marriages are more important than tools.(That'll probably get me thrown off knots for good!)Rp
I think that the "Yikes" remark was half-jest.
For the half that wasn't in jest, it is perfectly possible to make some reasonable and informative suggestions of alternatives without making blanket, prejudgmental characterizations of those who suggested the LN route. That's the part that I found to be condescending. Not to mention the sarcasm in the College of the Redwoods remark -- which turned out to be a pretty weak argument if money is really the central issue -- given the cost of CotR tuition.
If you really feel for this guy, how about some detailed suggestions about where to find the old planes and what to look for, and some caveats about what the fettling might involve (including material costs). Or the offer to send him a good user blockplane if he pays for shipping. (I've seen generosity like that on other forums -- and I've been offered tools off-list simply for asking questions about them). I wish I could make offers like that myself, but I don't have unused tools hanging around -- if I did, I would have suggested that route, not the LN.
Edited 1/17/2007 5:06 pm ET by VTAndy
Andy, you are being argumentative. In my first message on this thread, I merely advised that there were cheaper alternatives. I made no prejudgmental remarks at all until the posse came out of the canyon. That includes you.Go back and see for yourself.Rp
I guess that wraps it up.
Perhaps the original poster will get a block plane and we'll be able to help with setup advice should he run into any trouble.
-Andy
Edited 1/17/2007 5:26 pm ET by VTAndy
Andy,I've already apologized for misinterpretting the 'yikes.' But you keep making a fuss about my "two kinds" remark. The remark is empirical in nature: I found when taking people sailing, they either expected to sail any direction they wanted, or they expected that they couldn't sail toward the wind at all.You're the one who is seeing something pejorative in this. I intended nothing pejorative.Rp
thanks for all your help!
"yikes" was in jest TOTALLY, just that she'll be saying, "holy cow, another tool"......as if you guys don't hear same!if the wife comment upset anyone....i am extremely apologetic, it's just that some people do drugs, i buy tools.btw, my wife is an ADA, how's bout that for "YIKES"
Merlvern, Andy, et al. My apologies to all of you. Wish I hadn't gotten involved in the discussion.My wife and I really do struggle over financial priorities. A 'yikes' from me would not be humorous. It would be a euphemism for the f word.Rp
sorry about that, i was goofin' around.marriages are indeed more important
Merlvern,
How to break it to the wife? Look at it this way: Back in the 20s a new Stanley plane cost how many weeks wages for the average woodworker (remember that these were probably 12 hour days/6 day weeks)? And today, that new LN plane cost how many days wages for the average woodworker?
Answer to the above questions: The modern LN is significantly less expensive in terms of hours worked to earn the money to buy it than its Stanley predecessor.
The other advantage to the LN is that it is made of high-quality materials, machined to exacting tolerances (.0001" flatness along the length & width of the sole), improved design over the Stanley plane it is adapted from, and has essentially a life-time guarantee. It's also made by a company that stands behind its products and offers some of the best customer service you'll find anywhere in any industry. Not only will you enjoy working with a tool that does exactly what it is supposed to do right out of the box, but this is a tool that you'll be able to pass on to your grandchildren's grandchildren.
Have fun deciding which plane to buy!Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Don't hold back! Tell them what you really think.
I have had a couple of repair jobs done that I think I may have been able to do but decided thet I would not take them on. Those two decisions cost about what a bronze LN#4 cost.
In my area, the base rate for water (which includes the first 2000 gallon) went up $4.50 to a whopping $13/mo. Imagine that!! One can cook, bath, and flush ones toilet for a month and they raise holy heck. Yet they say nothing about a bottle of Dewars that is over $20.
A good quality tool like LN or Lee valley is an investment, not an expense. Everything is relative
Hi,
If you had to choose between the Lee Valley Low angle block plane and the LN low angle adjustable block plane which plane would you choose.
Are you familiar with Garrett Wade website. How do they stack up to Lee Valley I wonder. I must check out the prices on the Lee Valley site. They appear to be a bit less expensive. They have a small size sliding-head metal square for only $27.95US More affordable than the Starrett 6"square. Looks identical to the Starrett and is supposed to be very accurate. I've been searching for a small adjustable square for ages.
Since we're on the subject of Planes Would it be a waste of money to purchase a Side Clamp Honing Guide at Garrett Wade for $12.95 or am I better off purchasing the Veritaas Mark 2 chisel and plane blade honing guide for $54.50????? Some people say the cheaper honing guide would work just fine.
Wanda
Hi Wanda,
<<If you had to choose between the Lee Valley Low angle block plane and the LN low angle adjustable block plane which plane would you choose.>>
I'd go for the LN adjustable mouth. I have both the low angle and the standard angle and use both of them constantly (the LA more than the standard angle, though). Neither of them has ever disappointed me in their performance.
I'm sure that the LV is a great plane, but I have no experience with it, so I won't venture a recommendation in that regard.
Garrett Wade has a nice site, but I find them rather proud of their wares (pricewise). LV probably has a better deal on almost everything they sell in common with G-W; I find LV's prices very reasonable on almost everything they sell.
Hones? I can't answer that because I don't use one. FWIW, the LV MK II has pretty much gotten rave reviews from just about everyone on Knots that has posted on it. There were a few minor complaints, such as that it was difficult to camber a plane iron with it -- until LV came out with the special roller for cambering -- but overall people seem to be pretty happy with it. My advice would be to learn to sharpen freehand; it's like learning to ride a bike: it may take a while at first, but once you learn, you never forget. Ian Kirby's book, Sharpening With Waterstones, is very helpful, as are Leonard Lee's and Thomas Lie-Nielsen's sharpening books.
Given LV's reputation for making high-quality tools, I suspect that their small combo square will render fine, accurate service, but if you want "fail-safe" quality in combo squares, go with the Starrett.
Hope this helps.Beste Wünschen auf ein glückliches und wohlbehaltenes Neues Jahr!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
33854.6 in reply to 33854.3
"now how to break this to the wife......heck, she wanted the bookcase!"
First go look in the furniture store. Their nice bookcase costs $500 and it's not quite what your looking for. Your beautiful floor to ceiling bookcase costs $200 for lumber and finishes and $300 in new tools. The benefits of a relaxing hobby and the satisfaction of looking at that bookcase every day are bonus.
Tuolumne,
Hear hear! Plus, the tools get used on further projects, resulting in diminishing costs as long as you don't go overboard on further tools.
-Andy
"as long as you don't go overboard on further tools."
Um, that's what I keep telling myself. In all seriousness, I do generally buy a new tool(s) with each new project because it is part of the enjoyment for me. Even, so, I have saved our family a lot of money by building the furniture we've needed. Thankfully, my wonderful wife has been content to make do and wait until those projects can be completed (and there remains a long list). We do have 5 little ones tearing around the house, and there is still a 2x4 making do as a temporary railing at the top of fine finished ballusters. After living in our home for 4+ years it has obtained a wonderfully smooth hand rubbed polish. Now I'm trying to save on lumber too by sawing a drying my own.
Oh lord you are still working on your house 4 years after moving in? I am Doomed!
Doug Meyer
(Going for final Inspections on a new house)
Frank Lloyd Wright started Taliesin in 1911 and "finished" it in 1959 (because he died). Building a house any faster than that is for amateurs.Rp
For what it's worth: according to English law, an unfinished manor house (15th/16th century) was taxed at a lower rated than one that was finished. So tudor manors were rarely finished.I've always thought that if unfinished houses were good enough for the aristocracy, they were good enough for me.Rp
See that is the problem we done chased all them fancy types out of here. :)
Now I have a tax assessor walking into my place to make an estimate when the house did not even have the gyp. bd. finished! And she will be back shortly after I get my occupancy permit (the reason we have to get it at least close to done) Of course I have the legal right to not allow them into the house, and they have the legal right to guess that my house is made out of solid rosewood with gold cabinets and has diamonds inset in the counter to keep hot pots from melting the platinum finish.
Anyway speaking of hand planes. I have a nice little (well My dad has, but I use it more then he does) Verities/LV and I just love the thing to death. And I would suggest this as a good compromise between the New Stanley and the LN Anyway I have this Verities hand plan that I really like but it is looking kind of lonely. I also have (well once again truth makes me say that my dad has, but I use them more then he does) a couple other specialty types so I am looking for a good all around plane. If I am not wrong on this I think I am looking for something Like a Bedrock 604 that I can fix up a bit or if new a LN #4? IF so what about the BR603 or 605? And is their a big advantage to the bronze LN?
Doug Meyer
Doug,
the price difference between the Veritas and LN narrows when you get your LN from Fine Tool Journal. Plus, on the 62.5, the shipping is also included from Fine Tool Journal. I don't know if they include shipping on the little block planes, though.
The small bronze block plane has to be used to be understood, as far as how comfortable it feels and how handy it is. It is $75 from Fine Tool Journal. One minor advantage that I've found to the bronze (besides the "warmth" of it) is that it is low maintenance because the body of the plane cannot rust. ("patina" is a different matter).
-Andy
P.S. as for the argument about sharpening, sure, everyone has to learn that if they want a plane -- I noted it in my first post in this thread. But learning to hone and sharpen a LN blade is different than assessing the condition of an old plane and fettling it. I also agree that it is silly that some folks might buy LN because they don't want to learn to sharpen -- of course you have to. However, it can be used immediately, giving the newbie a sense of some zero-degree of sharpness. Later, they will need to sharpen it, and will eventually learn to get it even sharper than new. I don't think that any LN proponents have ever suggested that you'll never need to sharpen if you get one.
Doug, I have found that the bronze beauties are a little heavier. More mass is helpful in the larger planes. I have a bunch of Cliftons and bed rocks but when I looked for a #5 1/2 I picked the LN in iron as it was heavier than the Clifton and I could get the high angle york pitch frog . It's my go to plane for nutsy grain. All the best, Paddy
To Riverprof and all -
Lost in this discussion of new high quality/price vs old high quality/lower price is the fact that to use the older tool it requires fettling - and does the person new to planes know HOW to do that?
Fettling is a skill. To ask someone to learn both a skill and use of a new tool and compare that with just learning to use the new tool is the unspoken addendum to the discussion.
Yes, anyone who will take the time to learn to use a plane, will be able to learn to fettle them. BUT it IS an added skill.
My opinion is that we should encourage the woodworking first, THEN lead them down the slippery slope of plane ownership. After all, you cannot get every type of plane needed new, eventually your woodworking will ask, nay - DEMAND, additional tools. THAT is the time to learn fettling!
Mike
Mike,What you say rings true. But that L-N plane that works great right out of the box is going to need sharpening soon, and that too is a skill. Not as demanding as fettling, but a skill all the same, as is adjusting the plane back to "right out of the box" condition after sharpening. The fact is that using hand planes requires a variety of skills. If you're going to be afraid of skills, best to get into watching football on TV.Rp
"If you're going to be afraid of skills, best to get into watching football on TV."Now _that_ was condescending!Rp
For the specific applications you listed, I'd go with a block plane of some variety. I use the small Lie-Nielsen block plane (standard angle) for easing sharp edges. If you want more versatility you could go for a low-angle block plane with adjustable mouth -- good new ones are made by Lie-Nielsen and Lee Valley. The low angle is useful for end grain and the adjustable mouth helps reduce tear-out on edges and faces of boards.
I find that the little Lie-Nielsens are very pleasurable to use -- very comfortable. Google "Fine Tool Journal" for the best prices (I have no affiliation to them but am a happy customer).
Don't forget that if you are going to use handplanes, you need to learn to sharpen them. For starting out with one plane only, try a combination waterstone such as 1000/4000 grit. You're bound to get yourself wrapped up in more handplane use and more sharpening methods in the future, but at least this is a start. Joel at toolsforworkingwood.com has a very useful description of freehand sharpening (no jigs needed) on his website.
Cheers,
Andy
Don't worry about which plane to get because a year from now you'll have 8 and have your eye on a few others. I've been there. Hand planing opened a wonderful world of pleasure for me. Any old plane will do. If you want the planing to be satisfying, perhaps the sharpening system is more important. If you've never had your hands on a sharp plane and watched a nearly transparent curl of wood form down the length of a board you're really missing out in life. For me the first exposure was an old #7 jointer handed down from my great grandfather. One thing led to another. Maybe a $10 block plane on ebay is the place to start. My sharpening started cheap and was very effective if slow. Use a 3/8"x3" carriage bolt with double nuts and washers to maintain the proper angle and use 220 then 600 sandpaper on the bed of your tablesaw (or other flat surface) and sharpen away. I used water for lubrication. Now I have a DMT diamond stone that I can't say enough good things about. Enjoy the journey and don't look back.
Edited 1/17/2007 3:36 pm ET by tuolumne
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