For some time I’ve been able to true up boards by starting to clean one side up with a 3.5 inch portabe planer (the modern day scrub plane), finishing up with hand planes and then power thickness planing. While that works pretty well for small projects, It’s pertty clear that unless I want to spend all my time dressing lumber, Im going to need a decent jointer to make case goods.
In looking at the projects I want to tackle and the wood on my racks, It’s going to have to be at least an 8 inch machine and a single phase motor. If funds were unlimited I would probably go with the Inca 10 inch combination Jointer/Planer. That leaves me looking at (in descending order of price) Powermatic, Delta, Jet, Seco, and Grizzly. I live in the third world, about 260 miles south of Atlanta, so I don’t really have any way of comparing these machines first hand.
Any experience anyone has with the 8 inch versions of these machines would be appreciated. I’m particularly concerned about the ease with which blades can be changed, the machine can be tuned and the extent to which it holds set-up over time.
I’m looking for a best buy but I don’t want to buy 500 pounds of regret and headache.
Replies
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy
PlaneWood
Of course each person will have his/her own preferences, but here's my experience. I've got a Delta 8" (I think it's the DJ-20). I purchased it new and assembled and adjusted it myself. I've been happy with the performance and build quality. There was a part of two missing out of the box and Delta had it to my door within two days.
I purchased the machine, frankly, because I got it at a good price and have read positive comments and user feedback.
There have been a few good posts regarding combination machines, such as the Inca 12". The rationale for this makes sense in non-production studios with a single operator. I personally like to have single machines with single functions.
Hope this is useful in your decision making.
Best,
Seth
almost on a whim I bought a grizzley 6" machine. wish I could get those dollars back, as I have to hand fit beyond the gap the machine leaves. Afterward I warned my friend to stay away from grizzley when he made his purchase. He went for a powermatic, then had to swap it out for one that had parralell tables....
If I were smarter, I wouldn't be here.
Mike, you say you've had the Jet 6" for about a year with no problems. From our previous posts you know how much I like Jet and this will most likely be my choice for a jointer. My question to you would be how many times have you actually found a need for a bigger jointer. Say, an 8 or more. I see so many posts about people needing 8's or better and I can't really understand why unless they don't have a planner. I can face plane dead flat with my little 12" Delta portable planner so unless I'm jointing a 8" thick piece of wood I can't see a need for it. Can you advise ?
Thanks Steve - in Northern California
If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?
One reason i can see an 8inch jointer over a 6 incher, On jet and powermatic jointers (dont know about others) you can skew the fence.
Skewing the fence for difficult woods with irregular grain patterns, birds eyes, curleys etc. The 8 inch feature would give a little more "skew" room for longer items to joint. You can do this on a 6 inch but your outfeed table gets shorter while you infeed table gets wider. Possibly to the point where your reduce your table length drastically for the skewed cut. (if you need that drastic of a skewed joint to compensate for the grain pattern irregularities you wish to keep.
just one train of thought.
Interesting Bill, I hadn't given that any thought. Makes sense. Thanks.Steve - in Northern California
If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?
Steve - If I have something wider than 6" to joint, then I just rip it down to 6". :) The only glue up I've done lately with stock wider than 6" was for a headboard. For that project, planing was sufficient. i.e. the boards were flat to begin with. I did use the jointer there for the edges. But, I'm not a professional furniture maker and don't normally build large projects.
I have found that good straight grained lumber properly stacked and dried rarely needs to be surface jointed. Selecting good stock can mitigate the need for jointing,
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Thanks Mike, I attempt to make furniture but not commercially so I think I would also find it rare to need anything wider than 6". We have a great shop, (mount storm - http://www.mountstorm.com ) in my local area that can do anything I can't. I feel that as rarely as I would need something done that would require more than 6" it would be cheaper in the long just have it done by them. If I thought I would live forever, I might be able to justify the 8" but I'm pretty sure thats not going to be the case.
ThanksSteve - in Northern California
If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?
I have the 6" Jet, and it's a great machine for the price. I have yet to work with any solid lumber wider than 6" on the average size furniture I make. I couldn't justify the big jump in price from 6-8" jointers for my purposes. The few times I ever have to face-joint anything over 6" wide, I can pay the lumber yard to do it on their monster jointer, then I thickness plane on my Delta 12.5" planer, and edge-joint on the Jet. I don't see any huge advantage for a weekend woodworker to shell out $800 or more for the extra 2" capacity. I paid $499 for the Jet. Good luck.
To have the lumber yard joint your board would be just fine & dandy if they had more than a SCMS. As to brand of jointer to purchase, remember all manufactures can & do make a bad machine from time to time.
I have a friend that has a Grizzly 8" jointer & there are 2 cabinet shops here that have the same jointer & all of them work great. $695 + $75 for shipping. It's a great machine for a home or commercial shop.
I tend to use the table saw method, except I rip the stock a little wider than needed and run it through my Record #5 with a Stanley 386 fence. The edges come out super smooth and super straight.
Chris
Edited 4/10/2002 1:46:35 PM ET by Chris
I bought the grizzley HW 6 inch and have had no complaints . I does all I need it to do and well at consideable less cost than the prestiege machines.
Since I get a kick out of chiming in with a contrasting viewpoint, here's my little gem for the day: in 5 years of professional furniture making, I've barely used my jointer.
I know, sounds like witchcraft or something, but frankly, I just prefer to rip straight edges on my tablesaw-- one edge of the rough boards I buy is usually close enough to run against the fence without fear of kickback, and that produces a pretty-close-to-straight edge on the opposing edge. By alternating between sides a few times I can usually end up with a joint-ready edge-- sharp tablesaw blades are essential for this. It doesn't usually end up taking much more time than making a few passes on the jointer to get the same result, and I eliminate having to move material between the jointer and tablesaw (since ripping is usually my next operation after straight-edging, the boards are already where I'll need them next).
The only time I use my jointer is on really long stock that has to remain really long, and frankly, that is a pretty small amount of the time. Most of the lumber I buy comes in 8-10' lengths, and I immediately crosscut it as the first physical step in working on a project (working from my cut list, so things end up a few inches over-long). In an average piece, say a dresser, most lengths are 4' long at the most, and I'd rather lug them around than long boards. Many pieces are just 18" long, and even though I'm young and hardy, I'd rather handle more pieces of shorter stock. Shorter pieces are less likely to contain weird characteristics than the long boards they come from (warping, etc.), and this makes face-jointing unnecessary. I can't remember the last time I face-jointed a board. Overall, I'd rather just buy straight, flat lumber to begin with than spend my time truing up less-than-ideal stuff. While this isn't always possible, I'd rather spend a few extra minutes at the lumberyard than an extra hour at the shop.
I don't mean to shoot down the jointer- I have a nice one (albeit a 6"), and have been glad to have had it, but I can't really imagine needing an 8". A long-bed 6"? Maybe...
Have fun in your search, looks like lots of good advice here Chris Gleason
Gleason Tableworks
http://www.interestingfurniture.com
Thanks for a quality reply! Seems to be the character of this site. Again -thanks
I think we can start to see a divison forming here. Those of us who really need bigger Jointers and those of us who can get by with either the smaller ones or none at all. I think I fall into the tool junkie catagory where I think I want a smaller one but have been getting by with good sharp saw blades and a well tuned saw. Having not used a jointer except in the school shop I think I can base my desire for one because, 1. I think I want more perfection and 2. Because I don't have one.
If I'm really not going to get that much more perfection from the smaller one then I probably don't need one so #2 becomes a little silly. On the other hand, if #1 becomes significant then so does #2 and now I think I might just need a 16" or better.
Jeeze, am I ever confused today. ROFLMAO
So he looks into his wallet and says....oooopppps... I wonder if I can get by with my router table and planer. Me thinks so... at least for now.
Great Thread... lots of good decision making information for all of us... Thanks to all.
Steve - in Northern California
If the doctor says you have Attention Deficit Disorder, do you pay attention to him?
Edited 4/2/2002 3:20:11 PM ET by Steve Schefer
I'm looking for a jointer as well, but also having trouble justifying the extra cost of the 8" models. One difference for me is that I want the 8" for the longer bed, not the width. Like Chris I usually "joint" relatively short pieces on the table saw, though I always wish for that ultra smooth square edge that a good jointer produces. General (Canada) has a 6" with a long bed, but I'm having some trouble finding a place nearby to buy one. Anyone have any pros or cons to share about General?
Youll hear rave reviews about General (canada) here, also the powermatic makes an extra long 6" inch jointer.
Each website has a dealer/distributer section that can point you towards places to see them up close and personal.
My decision was agony but as the previous post said so well "you forget what you pay for it ..."
I bought the General 480 8" because
- reputation for quality
- baldor motor
- spoke with dealers and General themselves
- read horror stories about warped beds etc
Happy to report that the precision of the General 480 was perfect. No I machine my own 4 square stock from cheaper rough wood. I am happy with the purchase even though more expensive than foreign jointers with similar "claimed" performance....
General made in Canada is excellent. I have a 20" bandsaw and the 20" VS Lathe. The General International line is imported and for my money, if you want to go that route, go Jet.
Grizzly! 8 incher! for less than the price of most "name" 6" jointers, I bought the Grizzly $695. and it's a fine piece. I've run well over 3500 bd.ft. of wood on it with out any problems. simple to work on, easy source for parts, and I can order stuff on sunday morning before the sun shows it's head over the horizon. (or any other time I want to)
To beat it in quality you need to spend well over twice the price and then you really have to be a machinist to apprecite the differances. I bought an 8 incher because the bed is longer, not because of the two inch differance in capablity.
When you grab a 8 foot or longer board, it's nice to be able to have a really long bed to set it on. Picture this, imagine that you have a 6 foot long board that is shaped like a "C" when you try to get the "C" out of it, it's easier with a long bed than a short bed. The Basic 8" Grizzly has a 65 inch bed. the longest beds are on 12 inch jointers and they are only a foot longer or so. whereas the 6 inch jointer by jet/Delta/generaletc. is only about 4 feet long. that means you have about 2 feet to set your 8 foot long board on.
Well if all of your defects are in that first 2 feet then you should only buy a 6 inch jointer. or if you make cutting boards that are less than 2 feet long why that's your ticket. As for me I want a jointer that has about as much length as the flight deck of the newest aircraft carrier......
General has 2 levels of machine. The first one is called ''GENERAL INTERNATIONAL," made in Taiwan and comparable to Delta. The second one is called ''GENERAL'' made in Canada and it is a much better machine. It is what big shops that work all day long use. You can find a dealer by going to their web site http://www.general.ca
How many hours a day do you plan on using your jointer? You might need a professional quality machine if you plan on milling thousands of bd. ft. every day for a decade or more. If not buy one of the inexpensive ones, they all work fine and if they aren't as well built as some commercial equipment, that's OK they will mill the heck out of wood! I've run thousands of bd. ft. thru mine and Delta, Jet,Grizzly, and General all are acceptable for the average woodworker. The real differance is the price you pay.
I got good results from my table saw with a good sharp forrest blade for many years. Decided to treat myself upon retirement. Bought a 6" jointer. Now I have one if I need it- whenever that might be! Also added a bandsaw which I use all the time.
Steve - I got by for 35 years not having a jointer. After getting the Jet 6", I can truly say that I should have gotten one 25 years ago.
The 6" is sufficient for my needs cause I can adjust to fit the problem at hand. This would not be true were I doing woodwork for a living.
An overhead sander is another tool I should have got long ago.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_KatyPlaneWood
Thanks Mike, that's the kind of reply I was looking for. You just gave me an excuse to add another tool to my shop. The 6" sounds like its all I need and I'll check into the overhead sanders too.
Steve - in Northern California
Chris
Interesting comment. I tend to agree that I don't use my jointer on every board, but I do find that it is a lot easier and safer to take some curve out of a board when necessary.
I don't have that good of source for hardwood that I can pick and choose that much. I agree that I rarely if ever try to flatten a board on the jointer, never did like to do that.
I also tend to take the cast off's and discounted stuff a bit more. They are the ones with ugly edges. I also buy a lot from the sawmill direct and it has rough edges. Its a lot less money.
Right now I am working with about 500 BF of the blackest, dirty, boards that you have ever seen. I paid $75 for the load. Underneath, it the most beautiful clear old growth douglas fir, all quater saw, all clear. all with rough edges. It will be used to make a lot of doors.
I purchased a 1000 BF of lumber, paid $100 another $25 to get it dropped off. All rough, from 10" to 20" 16' length, 90% clear. The lumber yard had it covered and sold it as a "farmer load" It is Ponderosa Pine, which some may not like, but one of the 20" boards is worth twice what I paid for the total. BTW its all 2" stuff. I resawed some it, sold it for craft wood, paid for a big resaw band saw, planer and still have the best & widest.
If I did not have a jointer, and of course a planner, I would have passed on the material.
I understand that you run a business and cannot afford to mess with stuff like that, but to us seriours hobbyists, its part of the fun. Besides I like woodworking machines, and a jointer is pretty basic.
What do you do with the boards that are under internal stress, you know the board that either pinches the blade, or splits the other way when you rip it? Perhaps with the shorter ones you don't have as much problem. I find that I need to joint them.
How do you handle the glue up? Are you using the saw edge?
Love it when someone takes the other side, great post!
Curt
"What do you do with the boards that are under internal stress, you know the board that either pinches the blade, or splits the other way when you rip it? Perhaps with the shorter ones you don't have as much problem. I find that I need to joint them."
When I find what I think is a board under stress, I usually try to cross cut it to a close lenght first. If I can't do that, I wait until someone can help me hold it against the fence and stuff screw drivers in the kerf as it exits the blade. It's a pretty old method and is not at all safe since the guard and splitter is off at the time. I don't want to start the discussion of Saw safety again so I'll just leave it at that.
"How do you handle the glue up? Are you using the saw edge?"
Yes, I use a Forrest II 40 tooth thin kerf combo blade and I am anal about keeping my saw aligned within .002 front to rear. I get very good glue joints this way. I am leaning towards a 6" jointer so I can go back to ripping with a ripcut blade and save some wear and tear on the saw. The cut edge with this blade when properly aligned is excellent.
As a side note, I've heard about some QC problems with Forrest II's lately. Mine is perfect.Steve - in Northern California
Hi Curt-
What do you do with the boards that are under internal stress, you know the board that either pinches the blade, or splits the other way when you rip it?
Well, if a given board displays a tendency to move that radically, I generally would not use it in its full length- I wouldn't select it for a bed rail, for example, but it might work fine if I chopped it up into 18" slats to run vertically in the footboard. Personally I have a guideline about not fighting with lumber-- if a board really wants to warp/bend/curve/spring to the left, I don't pound my head against a wall and try to figure out how to make it go right. I find another board that is more amenable to my purpose. I hope I'm not coming across as a wood snob, and I also enjoy finding some of those diamonds in the rough at the lumber yard. I see two distinct points to consider in this question: the philosophical question of "How we feel about wood- is it a material used to create a product or is it an organic, magical, substance that we are honored to get to work with?" In other words, "Do you go to the lumber yard to purchase components necessary for a job, or do you go there as a religious experience to appreciate the miracle of wood?"
That is obviously overstated, those two attitudes represent the extremes, and most of us (myself included) end up somewhere in the middle. For me, though, when in doubt, I'll err more toward the "hey, if that board isn't right for that application, I'll just go get another" school of thought rather than the "with a bunch of extra effort I can make it work" ethos.
The other point I alluded to is a safety issue: if a board starts to pinch or bow during a rip cut, I will not continue it. I'm not going to insert screwdrivers, washers, etc. to keep a kerf open. To me this is not negotiable. and I'll just set that board aside for something else.
Enjoying the thread,Chris Gleason
Gleason Tableworks
http://www.interestingfurniture.com
Chris
I am with you all the way on this. It is just those boards that seem to have just a little bit of tendency to move out of line that I use the jointer for. I see some of my friends getting frustrated trying to rip some of this slighlty out of true material and it tends to make me concerned for their saftey. Many have never checked to see just how crooked the material is that they are using.
My father was a carpenter, logger and sawmill owner/operator and I learned a lot from him, from the tree to the board.
I finaly checked your webb page just to see what you do and your comments about using the wild wood in short sections appears to be put to use in your work. I see some really nice work.
I am not a full time woodworker, just spend a lot of time and $ on it. I have a lot of stuff in the house that I built, as well as most the house its self.
I am out west in soft wood country and I see you are closer to the hardwood forests. You likely have a lot better selection that I on hardwoods.
I am trying to get my shop finished, actually, modified and then finished since I moved, then built one and moved in unfinished and just recently doubled its size. Trying to get my lumber, beam and log collection under one roof.
Curt
Hi Curt-
Be sure to post some pics of the shop once you get it done- I can't get enough of seeing how folks set things up. And thanks for taking the time to check out the site, it is mostly just there for my own ego gratification (which is a good enough reason for me!)-- and your compliments don't go unappreciated!
Best,Chris Gleason
Gleason Tableworks
http://www.interestingfurniture.com
I have a 6 inch Grizzley which I've used pretty regularly for over 14 years with no problems. I've never felt the need for an 8 inch. Good luck, Art
I have owned a Delta DJ-15, 6" longbed jointer for about 12 years. It is out of production, however the similar DJ-20 8" longbed jointer is still in production. My DJ-15 has been great. I would suggest the DJ-20, there have been many instances where I wished I had an 8" jointer. You can pass the Delta on to your grandchildren as well.
PS, Powermatic ain't bad either.
Eric
You might consider that a jointer is probably the most over rated piece in the shop. If you want to clean up the edges of beams or other thicker material you might consider a top notch band saw. Yes this requires carefull setup and blade tension adjustment and choice but consider all of the other uses that can be made of a band saw. Not only can you use it to clean up edges but you can also resaw with it and many other uses.
If from there you still need to really clean up the edges you could build a small drum sander that once again has much more flex in a shop. I know there is a company out there that will sell you the parts to build your own small drum sander. I'm sorry I can't remeber the company name but I have seen them at a number of wood shows in Toronto, Canada. I think that they are a company that mainly sells the sand paper products and have found a way to allow us little guys to access something we normally can't afford.
Hope this is of some help
Bear.
You might consider that a jointer is probably the most over rated piece in the shop.
Bwaahahahahah!
Let's see; a jointer can face joint, edge joint (square or bevel), taper a leg, cut a rabbet, four square a board, just to mention a few "precision" operations....
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Hello Bear,
you and I will never agree on this. I think a jointer is more important than a table saw, I can cut boards to a great deal of precision with my skill saw and a straight edge. yet there is no way you could convince me not to square them on a jointer.
Now some claim to be able to square with a hand plain and i don't doubt them. I know I don't have that ability and few Newbies do. That's an aquired skill. But I know how to put a board on a table and lean it against a fence. I can check my work with a square so I gues evan dumb ol' me knows how to use a jointer.
Using a drum sander to square a edge? Bet the sand paper wears out faster than my blades need sharpening. Since I square up several thousand bd.ft. a week I was wondering if you'd take my challege?
I'm going to add to this that I think a jointer is highly valuable to the unskilled. I am one of the unskilled - so unskilled that I rarely have enough expertise to post here. Use of a jointer is almost intuitive, with great results automatically available to people like me. I think that the precisely squared edge of a board is one of those necessary things to have as a starting point.
I would be recommending a tablesaw for jointing edges and thicknessing long before a bandsaw and a drum sander. you can actually joint and thickness lumber on the tablesaw, though the safety issue is questionable, with a very long auxillary fence the same thing that a jointer and thicknesser would do. sandpaper would also produce a poor glueing edge and even the best tuned bandsaw isn't as accurate as a good jointer or tablesaw.
using a jointer properly takes a bit of skill, but it's alot easier and faster than doing it all by hand. I let the machines do the hardwork and then finish up by hand.
You guys are gonna be laughing buttttt Im perfectly happy with my Delta bench top. It does everything I need and when I need to joint a longer piece I add a out feed table or roller.
I have been considering buying a larger one maybe the delta 37-190 (I think thats the model numer) or equivelent. Been looking at the Jet equivelent also. Need to go to the website and check out the general and grizzley. But like I said the bench top has met my need.
I will add one caveate I am a DIYer not a furniture builder. I fall into the category of making stuff to improve myhome. Im in the middle of a kitchen remodel and I am finishing up making the base cabs. So thats my opinion FWIW Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Hey Ron!
Glad to see ya. FWIW, when I replaced my jointer I looked at the Jet cabinet model very closely, went with the Delta 37-195 mainly because the tables were more substantial and the fence was longer and taller. Can't make a comparison on the Jet open stand vs. the Delta 37-190, other than I've not heard any complaints on either...
Dano"Form and Function are One" - Frank L. Wright
Dano, just my opinion here..
Jet vs. Delta,
The Delta is a little more expensive, the quality is the best its been in four to five years, the customer service is still a little stinky but improving.
The Jet is less expensive, the quality is about a 1/4 notch down from the Delta as it has always been and customer service is still great.
They are both professional grade tools and have earned respect among the trades.
I think you could just about take your pick and come out a winner.Steve - in Northern California
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