Hello,
when I started woodworking I looked for a plane that would allow me to do this operation: lay the plane on its side and plane (joint is the right term?) a long piece of wood. To me it is important to have the face of the planed wood perpendicular to the workbench plane. So I purchased a Stanley n. 3. I was pretty sure it had square faces, since stanley is quite renown. But no, the faces where completely out of 90 degrees. So I purchased what I thought was a superior plane, a Record n. 4 (see my previous post). I was pretty sure the Record had square faces to the sole. But, destpite the fact that the faces were much better than stanley (at least they where straight), they were not square to the sole. So I am sick and tired of this. I cannot afford a Lie nielsen. It is too much expensive and moreover I think I saw a review that not even the lienilsen has square faces to the sole. So I was thinking of purchasing a ECE Primus smoothing plane. That is quite expensive but I will try. Before I buy it, I would like to know your opinion from people who own this plane. Does it have square faces? I read a review and it said it is a nice plane, but did not mention the squareness factor. That is a must for me.
Thanks in advance for your help,
Enrico
Replies
Enrico,
Have you given any thought to a Veritas plane from Lee Valley? Less expense then Lie-Nielsen and very well made.
I'm not sure I understand the mechanics of what you're trying to accomplish but it sounds like maybe you're trying to use a shooting board (or your workbench as a shooting board/guide). The question that I have is whether you need to blade that extends all the way to the edge of the plane (at which ponit you'd be looking at something like a rabbet plane).
I'm not sure whether its a cast iron versus wood plane bias, but I would expect a well-made metal plane to have sides more consistently square to the sole.
I've heard nothing but good things about the ECE primus planes but I don't have any personal experience with them and I'm not sure I've ever seen anyone talking about whether the sides were square to the sole.
Matt
Not sure about the availability in your area but I have had a local machinist (machine shop) machine the sides of a Record plane perpendicular to the sole. Perhaps you could locate the same service where you are.
I just checked by Primus smoothing plane. I used a Starret square and I can see daylight in spots along the sole. It is square on the outside edges but only about 1/4" around the periphery. If and when I buy another smoother it will be a Veritas or if the piggy bank ever fills up a L-N. The Primus does a good job of smoothing but I think a plane with more mass is easier to use. With all of this said I am not a "planer" with a good deal of experience behind me.
Thanks for your reply. Anyway, since english is not my first language, I am going to attach two pictures to better explain my point. This is not the real stuff. It is just an example. I used two pieces of plywoods and a block plane. I would like to be able to get the surface that I am planing perpendicular to the workbench and therefore to the underside surface. No rabbet plane or whatsoever. Just a simple smoothing plane. Veritas might be a nice suggestion but is quite expensive, considering that it is american and I suppose price in europe is higher.
One last thing. A while ago I purchased a wooden plane at a hardware store near here. It was a veeeery cheap plane. I cannot use it because all the cutting mechanism is too bad. But the sides are dead square to the sole.
Edited 9/26/2006 3:33 pm ET by esc
If there are any machine shops in your area with a surface grinder you might be able to find someone who will grind the sole of your plane so it is square. If they need to make a jig to hold the plane this might be expensive but they may already have a means of holding it during the grinding, so it could be pretty reasonable. It would definitely be cheaper than buying an expensive plane.
Good luck,
Doug
Ok Doug, since you are trying to help me out, this phrase: "any machine shops in your area with a surface grinder" make me a hard time to translate into italian. Could you help me figure out what kind of stuff you are talking about? What kind of service do machine shops? and what is a surface grinder? Who might have this kind of service? I asked around to some friends of mine, but I came out with nothing.
Thanks,
Enrico
Hi Enrico,
I am not sure where you are located so my answers may not be correct for you. "Machine Shops" are businesses, some small, some quite large, which have milling machines, lathes, grinders and other equipment used for machining metal parts. They usually make custom parts for customers who are typically OEM's (original equipment manufacturers). Some of the smaller shops will do odd jobs for people and will charge you an hourly rate.
A surface grinders is a machine with a horizontally mounted grinding wheel which travels over a bed. The bed is equipped to hold a work piece in place either magnetically or with clamps. A good should be able to set up and grind your plane in less than an hour.
Hope this helps,
Doug
Enrico
machine shop = industria di costruzioni meccaniche
surface grinder = smerigliatrice di superficie
(no, despite the name I don't speak Italian - http://babelfish.altavista.com/)
I guess what doug is trying to say is that if you look around you should be able to find a shop which manufactures metal parts of one form or another. They would have milling machines, surface grinders, and so on, all for working with piece of steel.
A machinist (italian: macchinista) in english, means somebody who works with blocks of metal should be able to make the sides of your blade square very quickly if he knows what he is doing.
The problem is, it may cost you as much to have that done as to get a new plane as have a bad one fixed, but if you get a good one, the blade is better, the bottom is better, etc..
so, you might consider a Verita Plane or go to a store or shop and check each plane until you find one which is square. Good planes should be square, flat, etc., or you send them back, and even cheap ones should be, they just vary more, so measure until you find a straight one.
By the way, what you want is a 'shooting board' to plane wood the way you want.
Good luck
Edited 9/26/2006 4:51 pm ET by Piccioni
Officina Meccanica. Qui in zona ce qualcuna , ma non lo mai fatto fare un lavoro del genere. Una volta pero ho fatto modificare un pezzo di una combinata che avevo. Vale la pena tentare, al peggio dicono di no.
Philip
There are planes (called shooting planes) made to do exactly what you seem to be describing. However unless you plan to do an awful lot of this I am not sure the expense of a single-purpose plane would be worth it. You can buy a Lie Nielson, I have many and they are all dead square, or you could look at flea markets and such. You should be able to find one that is square enough. Stanley Bedrocks were a quality item at one time and the ones I have checked out were square.
I am not sure how far out of square your planes are but the sides don't have to be actually dead-on perfect to do good work with wood. The results are what count. I say this because I have an engineer friend I am trying to break of the habit of using hundredths and even thousandths of an inch when laying out his woodworking projects. It's wood. What you make perfect today may not be tomorrow or 6 months from now.
Bob
The problem with jointing edges by shooting them on a board is exactly the problem you've run into - it requires a plane with a very accurately machined body. Nothing a little money won't solve, but do you absolutely have to do them this way? I've built everything under the shining sun with hand tools and I've never used a shooting board. Never, not once. Don't think I'll ever need one. I've always wondered what all the hoopla was about.
Is it outside the realm of possibility that you just joint your edges with a No. 7 in the more 'usual' manner?
I think you may have read an article somewhere about how it's possible to joint long boards with a block plane or perhaps a smoothing plane. It IS possible with a very accurately made shooting board, but seems to me to be a needless exercise when long planes are readily available. For jointing extra long boards you can enlist the aid of a straightedge.
Edited 9/26/2006 4:52 pm ET by CStanford
It is too much expensive and moreover I think I saw a review that not even the lienilsen has square faces to the sole.
If there was any validity to that particular complaint, the plane in question could and should be returned for an exchange; each and every one of my L-N bench / block / shoulder planes is capable of shooting a perfectly square edge..
I've no experience of Primus planes; if L-N is beyond your budget I'd recommend you check out either Lee Valley or Clifton.. Both have exemplary quality control and track records...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Your objective is a sharp straight edge carried at 90° to the surface on which your workpiece rests. Possibilities:
1) Ensure your blade is sharpened straight across without camber.
2) Ensure the plane, placed on its side, does not rock.
3) Use the side to side adjustment to get the blade set at a consistent depth across its width.
4) Use shims as necessary to adjust the workpiece support, or the track along which you slide the plane.
5) Check by jointing two boards, then putting the jointed faces together. Continue alternating steps 4 and 5 until good enough.
Hope this helps...
EDIT: Don't worry about getting it machined. Heck, if you were shooting a 45° you wouldn't get a plane whose body matched that angle, you'd reposition the workpiece or plane. Same principle here. BTW I'm guessing you're having more of an issue with getting the blade sharpened and bedded correctly, than irreparable problems with the plane body.
Edited 9/26/2006 6:00 pm by John_D
Ok everybody, thanks a lot for your suggestions. I will keep looking for some machine shop around here and see if they can do the job with the surface grinder.Or I will keep doing it in different ways, but the result was never satisfactory.Thanks
Enrico
Enrico
Look here, there is no need to go and buy another plane! Nor is there any need to go to the expense of having the sides trued square to the sole. There is a fix for your shooting plane (sometimes called a "chuting" plane) that will cost you nothing (other than a red face)!
Just use the lateral adjustment for the plane to square the blade to the work. That is all! The body of the plane does not need to be square. All that is required is that the blade is square.
For reference, here is a short article on shooting boards and their planes.
http://www.wkfinetools.com/tMaking/shootBoard/index.asp
Regards from Perth
Derek
Enrico, if you are just wishing to square an edge and get on with a project, then use a router, Italy makes fine routers and cutters. If you do not have a router then buy one, they are useful in so many ways.
I don't know exactly why, but.... Enrico you don't seem to be extremely Italian.... where exactly are you located?
Philip
oh man, this is nice. What makes you think so? I live in Rome. What do you mean by "extremely" italian? Anyway, I don't consider myself a typical italian.
No offense, I'll explain ,I've been here 23 years and you are the first time I've found an Italian interested in hand tools. I had you pegged as being Alto Adige or as having a foreign parent.
I know a bunch of small artisans and some hobby woodworkers in this area (Bassa Brianza) and not one even wants to know what a hand tool is.
Hand tools are not a typical thing here so you are by far not a typical Italian.
My first hand tools here I managed to get by way of a ferramenta in Gorgonzola who ordered some planes for me out of a Stanley catalog . ( around 1986) almost unusable stuff. Then I found the Importer of Record tools who I got to order two ED 53 vises and a few other things.
All of these people looked at me like I was from outer space when I ordered this stuff.
Then I found Dieter Schmid in Berlin and managed to get some decent hand tools (great guy and good prices on European hand tools).
After that I picked up stuff in the US when I went to visit relatives.
Too bad you aren't near here I could let you try out some real hand planes.
What area of Rome do you live in?
Philip
By the way your English is very good .
P.S. I have an Ulmia reform smoothing plane that is almost Identical to the ECE .... Don't go there , it just dosen't have enough mass.
Edited 9/29/2006 5:30 pm ET by wop
Hi Enrico,This may help you on your way.http://www.hntgordon.com.au/usingplanes.htmThe 'jointing long boards' instructions are the ones you're looking for at the moment.Best regards,eddie
ESC, John
I tend to agree with John. The shims work perfectly used on a shooting board. have a look at de DVD, and you wil never worry about square edges anymore. Do not worry about the tool, worry about the solution of your problem.
About the planes: how many bad bargains you need before you buy the Lie-Nielsen? But even then, you need to work precise to achieve a square edge.
Geert van der Donk
The DVD I meant:
Precision Shooting SimplifiedDavid CharlesworthDavid Charlesworth demonstrates how shooting boards can help you achieve accurate work quickly and reliably. He also shows you how easy it is to make simple shooting boards and miter fixtures, the many practical applications of these workshop aid and how to shoot free-hand.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=43195
If you're hell-bent.... but I think these things are unnecessary......
It's easy to knock the blade askew in the ECE Primus during use which of course would ruin the whole exercise.
Edited 9/27/2006 9:48 am ET by CStanford
The Primus ECE plane is a good idea that is not carried out well. I;ve had one. The tool steel is, as Ron Hock once said, "That chrome vanadium garbage," The plane is really good for softwoods, and maybe some mahogany. And it's not engineered to accept a thicker blade from Hock or Lie NIelsen or anyone else. So it chatters a lot. Despite the tension creating mechanism to hold the chip breaker.
What you need in a plane is mass and a sharp blade. You would do better with an old Stanley. The Lee Valleys are great, the LNs, a Steve Knight smoother is great, an old Norris or Dpiers are better than great, some cost a lot, some a little. But the Primus: well, it's just not as good as a well tuned old Stanley. Fix the old, or for a few buck, and some time, you can make another old one as good as new.
Buon Giorno Enrico!
John D gave you some very good advice [it's essentially what I was going to suggest to you, but he posted it first, so I won't repeat it. ;-) ]. If you have questions about the techniques he listed, take a look at David Charlesworth's video Precision Shooting Simplified here: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?showall=519&sort=prd_author
The video has lots of great techniques for getting a clean, straight edge, regardless of the squareness of your plane or shooting board. Well worth the money.
Mr. Charlesworth also has plans for a very effective shooting board here: http://www.lie-nielsen.com/pdf/shootingboard.pdf Simple to make, versatile, and very effective.
Edit: LN planes are usually flat to within .0015" over the length; the bench plane and most of the block plane sides are ground 90° to the sole. If you happen to get one that is not, just send it back; LN will either fix or replace it at no charge. LN planes are not inexpensive, but that are, IMO, the best production Bailey-pattern planes currently available.
Hope this helps you!
Tschüß!
Mit freundlichen holzbearbeitungischen Grüßen aus dem Land der Rio Grande!!
James
Edited 9/27/2006 10:42 am by pzgren
My suggestion to you is to forget about laying the plane on its side to joint boards. Place the wood in your vise on edge and use the longest plane you have to joint it. A smoothing plane is not the best for jointing. You will have good results with a jackplane (14") or longer. Practice your technique until you have it down to where you take a full length shaving. Another technique that works is to place both pieces in the vise side by side and plane them both at the same time. In this case, if your edge is not perfectly square, you can reverse one piece and one error will correct the other.
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