I have been mulling over which bench plane to purchase, and I notice that there is a large price difference between the Stanley and Grosz lines versus LN or Veritas. Do these latter 2 really warrant the significant difference in price over the former two?
M Bookbinder
Replies
My dad used to tell me "If you're going to make your living with it, get the best tool you can afford". That said, the L-N works great "out of the box", no fiddling with them is necessary to make them work. I own several and wouldn't have any other brand if I could afford them. Depending on what you're planning to do, you can't beat a garage-sale Bailey or a really old Stanley (if the sole is reasonably flat) and a replacement Hock or L-N blade.
The LN's are worth every penny you pay for them. There are several in my plane arsenal, and I've yet to be disappointed by any of them. Ready to go right out of the box, except, perhaps, a touch up on the stone for the iron -- all depends on your definition of "sharp". Based on the old Stanley Bedrock planes. Sole is flat to .0015" in the overall length/width and sides are 90 degrees square. Just a very well manufactured tool that does what it was designed to do -- no fuss, no drama.
Don't have any experience with the LV planes, but everything I've read/heard is very positive; have used some of LV's other tools: they're great!!
New manufactured Stanleys are ok, at best. If you buy one, plan on spending several hours tuning it (mainly lapping the sole) and probably replacing the iron and chip breaker. Once you've done that, the price differential between the new Stanley and the LN is significantly less, and once you count the value of your labor for tuning the new Stanley.......
Unless you're only planning to do rough carpentry/framing work, don't bother with the Groz; you'll end spending a LOT of time tuning it and still won't have anything better than an "average/mediocre" plane.
Another alternative is to buy old Stanley (pre-WWII). You can expect to spend some time cleaning and tuning, but when you are finished, you'll generally have an outstanding plane.
Edited 2/27/2006 11:53 pm ET by pzgren
Edited 2/28/2006 11:23 pm ET by pzgren
Edited 3/4/2006 9:41 pm by pzgren
How do you tell a Bailey/Stanley is pre WWWII??
Thanks in advance
Chuck
One way is to look for a raised area at the toe and heel of the bed. Wartime planes often had a black plastic adjuster (or it may have just been painted black). Do a search here for "Mike in Katy" or look for threads with the name Planewood. He restores planes and has a site with links. Among the links is a dating link, specifically for #4 planes. There are other sites out there, but I'm not using my laptop (which is where the links are) due to viruses. The japanning was also thinner on a lot of the post-war planes. If you can post some photos of the whole plane, the area just behind the frog and at the toe and heel, I'm sure it can be dated here. If it has 2 patent dates and they're both 1902, it would be as new as 1910, since that's the next patent date. If it has no frog adjuster, it's before about 1904, IIRC. If it has no dates AND no frog adjuster, it's an old one, but if it just has no adjuster, it would probably be after about 1930. Also, in about 1930, the hole on the lever cap was changed to a "kidney" shape. About this time, they were casting STANLEY into the cap and it was filled with orange paint at that time. There were some with yellow paint, but the Supertools site has more info about it. If anything that I wrote is wrong, someone can correct me.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 3/2/2006 1:05 pm by highfigh
Chuck,
<<How do you tell a Bailey/Stanley is pre WWWII??>>
In addition to what highfigh posted above (7794.15), try these two links.
This one is a flow chart that will get you in the ball park for dating:
http://homepage.mac.com/galoot_9/ascii_dating_chart.html
This one has a dating flow chart as well as a lot of detailed information on determining the type of plane you have (and therefore, its approx manufacture date):
http://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/stanley_bench_plane/dating/
WWII or before planes are "Type 17" or earlier. See the Plane Type Study section on the 2d link; it has the characteristics for each type listed, which you can compare to your plane to determine its type and range of dates of manufacture.
Pretty good info on these two sites, but keep in mind that dating Stanley planes is a "rough science," at best; normally you can usually get to within a couple of years (for older, pre-WWII planes) or a range of years (for post-WWII planes) of the date of manufacture.
If you're not already familiar with Patrick's Blood & Gore, try this link:
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
It has more than you'll EVER want to know about Stanley planes; probably the best and most comprehensive single source of info on Stanley planes available on the net.
Cheers!
James
Edited 3/2/2006 2:21 pm ET by pzgren
In a word... yea... I started out thinking that a good new Stanley would be ideal for me... they're a good make.. right..??? Ummmm..... not exactly...
Buying something new, I'd expect it to be fit for purpose straight outa the box... not so thesedays I'm afraid... In my ignorance I assumed the plane was fine and yet my results were average at best. Learning to sharpen properly helped some, learning to tune (read fixing the manufactures QA errors) helped a little bit more but the results were still far from ideal.. I couldn't figure what was wrong; was it me or the tool..??
After months of soul searching I bit the bullet... bought my first Lie Nielsen... To cut a long story short, I haven't looked back. My technique has improved leaps and bounds simply because I know I can put faith in the tool...
One word of caution though... One plane leads to two, then four then ummmmm.... considerably more...
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Is their rapid reproduction the reason they call it a rabbet plane?Sorry, that was really lame. I won't do it again."I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 2/28/2006 8:26 pm by highfigh
personally I woulda called em rabbid.... an (wit hinesight) treat accordingly...
Trying to work hardwood with half decent figure using a new stock Stanley will leave ya foaming at the mouth..!!!Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
I have done a little planing on hard curly maple and my #4 does a pretty good job but I do need to pay attention to the direction of the grain. The #4 is English made, from about 1932 and it doesn't even have a laminated iron but it does cut whispy curlies on hard maple and white oak. I have one dark piece of hard birdseye and I don't even think a L-N would be able to work it perfectly (I should have taken it to the WW Show last weekend so Deneb could give it a shot). It's one of the hardest pieces of wood I have ever seen, and it seems to be pretty close to the hardness of ebony. I started flattening it but decided to clean all of my planes first (w/ citric acid). Once I'm done adding planes (Hi- my name is Jim and I'm a hand plane addict) and cleaning what I have, I'll go back to it.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I tried the blade upgrade route myself just before xmas... Bought L-N blades and improved chip breakers for both my #4 and #5. They make a hellova difference over the stock blades, but still... they're a long way from being as capable as my L-N's... Fine for straight grained stuff... but they didn't like figured sycamore...
Going back to having to remove the blade to tweak the frog was a PITA I tell ya... Guess I've grown used to being spoiled..Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Uhhh....I tink I shudda toined left at Albuquerque.......
"Next stop- Rancho Cucamonga!"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
ROFL....Always loved the sound of "Rancho Cucamonga"....just sounds exotic and cool...
There are several ways to skin this cat, but it takes patience and smarts. Retailers (mostly internet) some times drop premium lines and blow out their left over inventory. Over the last 20 years I picked up a #1 LN with a wholesalers logo etched on the cap. Maybe he picked up a thousand or so for a promotion and a year or more later still had 75+ left gathering dust . I saw his flyer for $125---done. Several internet sellers got into Cliftons and then got out. I picked up #3,5,6,7 for from 35 to 55% of the old retail.
In the auctions you have to look real close at the goods, half trust the photos, if there is no photo of the sole, mouth ,frog and both sides-ask for them early in the auction-if they don't come just click you mouse to next and forget it. You must be ready to clean, tune and re-iron them all. I picked up #2 fulton(a very clean sargent 407), bailey 4c, millers falls #10-aka 4 1/2, bedrocks 604, 5, 5c, 6, and a very clean 608 for $225, the only one over 200 some as low as $32.
The only ones that I paid retail for( new in the box) clifton 4 1/2, stanley 5c, 271, 71, record 020c(compass plane), #5, 778, a LV 212,a low angle jack and a LN 5 1/2 with a york frog for those really nasty grained pieces that you create new words for that you can't use in church.
It takes time and patience, just get the basics then watch and wait for a goody to pop up, good luck, Pat
I have a Stanley number 4 and it works well, but it has alot of little problems. I recently bought a Lie Nielsen LowAngle block plane, and the thing is great. All I had to due was alittle honing of the blade and it was ready to go. I just ordered a Veritas Low Angle Jack Plane, and I expect the same with it, just alittle honing and it should be good.
I own several Veritas planes - same as the LN, they are ready to go out of the box. Hold an edge forever and I use them everyday. I don't think you could go wrong with either make, tho I've not had the pleasure of using a LN - all reviews have been excellant.
Flat out, no question, yes. You get what you pay for in the hand tool field, with few exceptions. Sure, you can tune and cajole the cheaper planes to work for you, but they'll never work with the same ease and pleasure as the higher quality tools.
If I may suggest, be very conservative about which tools you decide you need. I'd rather extend the functional range of a high quality tool than have several cheap tools that are more specialized but don't do anything really well. For example, a quality jack plane can work pretty well as a jointer and smoother. Maybe have two differently sharpened blades for it, etc. Whatever. Get more planes later if you come up with the money.
But the point is, go for quality. And best wishes for enjoyable woodworking!
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