I received as a Christmas gift a LN 4.5 smoother plane, and some money, with the note, “If you like this plane, go buy a couple more.” Dumb question – of course I love the LN! So I’m wondering what else I should buy.
Most of my (too infrequent) work is in walnut or white oak, generally a dresser, bed, desk, or living room furniture for my own use or for one of my grown children. I also have some Koa I’ve been saving for the right projects. I have a Craftsman jack plane (which works well now that I have tuned it up), and a Stanley regular (not low angle) block plane.
I’m considering:
1. A scraper plane (Veritas or LN).
2. A low angle/adjustable mouth block plane.
3. A shoulder plane.
4. A different plane, if it would be more useful.
I’ve read several of the other threads about planes, which have been very helpful, but I’m hoping someone has time to give some advice that might be more specific to my situation.
I’m especially interested in how much use I would get out of a shoulder plane. I don’t see myself using it much for dado clean up. I know you can use them on the shoulders of tenons (I use mortise and tenon joinery pretty often); are they as effective on the cheeks? Same question on the scraper plane – would I really get enough use to justify the purchase? (I use a Stanley No. 80 and a card scraper now.)
In any case, I’m biased towards a high-quality tool, within reasonable cost.
Thanks in advance to anyone who replies.
Replies
I have been using Veritas and LN planes exclusively for over a year now, and I currently have a Veritas low-angle smoother, low-angle adjustable block plane, low-angle jack plane, and the large shoulder plane. As for LN, I have the small low-angle block plane and the scrub plane.
Surprisingly, the LN scrub plane has been my favorite plane to use thus far...although the Veritas low-angle jack is amazing also. For your new acquisition, I would suggest a jointer plane, #7 or #8 LN if you can handle the price. I can't yet, but it's the next plane I have my eyes on. The large Veritas shoulder plane is also a must have tool.
You can't go wrong with the LN low angle block plane, especially now that they make a $75 version. It's easily the most used tool in my shop.
I just got the Veritas medium shoulder plane and I absolutely love it. It does at great job on the shoulders, but a bit narrow for planing the cheeks (I'll have to put in my request for the large shoulder plane for x-mas). It was sharp and ready to use right out of the box. Lee Valley did an exceptional job with that tool!
-Matt
Bruce,
If you are considering a low angle block plane, you might consider a LA rabbet block plane. This would give you the normal LA benefits as well as the cheek shaving capability you mentioned. I think it would complement your present block plane. You would not have the adjustable mouth, does your Stanley have an adjustable mouth? If so, you might find the rabbet capability a good tradeoff. This is also more reasonably priced because of its smaller size compared to a jointer. If you do have the means for 'a couple more' then I think a jointer would be high on my list as well. The recommendation of a scrub has merit if you are working with wood that would truly benefit from it. That would be my order of choice.
Greg
I would suggest adding two planes to give you the most versatility for basic planing needs. A low angle block plane can do many tasks. It can be used with an open mouth for scrubbing off high spots on faces and edges. You can use it to fit miter joints or scribe to fit carpentry work. It can also be used on a shooting board, until you can save up the dough for a miter plane, and it is handy for cutting ####chamfer on edges or ends of tenons, etc. The low angle allows end grain work and you can hold the blade askew when working touchy materials. A low angle rabbet block plane will allow you to clean or make shoulders and cheeks in addition to the other things mentioned.
Generally you need a long plane for flattening and straightening. The #7 is often recommended but a #6 will also do a good job for a little less money and less weight.
Combined with the smoother and scrapers you have, the three planes will handle most of your needs. You can relegate scrub work to your regular block plane. These planes are utility planes and you don't have to spend the big bucks to get some that function well. I'd rather spend the serious money on a smoother.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
OK, thanks for some very helpful responses. Now, I have to confess to an error in my original post - which I wrote at work, hoping for some responses this evening when I got home.
The error is that my Stanley block plane is a low angle (with adjustable mouth), not a regular angle, as I first stated. Would that change anyone's response? It seems it still might be worth it to get a better quality low angle block, but the Stanley works fine for chamfering, etc. Also, do I really need a standard block plane?
Next point: No one suggested a scraper plane. Is that because you don't feel scraper planes are that useful? Or because since I already have and use a No. 80 and a card scraper that you felt a scraper plane would be lower priority than some others? I seem to spend a lot of time on tear out, especially around knots in my walnut, and if a scraper plane would really improve that process, it might be worth it.
I'm not sure about a jointer plane - Obviously they excel at flattening, but I generally start with wood that has been through a thickness planer. My requirements for a plane seem (to me) to run more along the lines of cleaning up a face, taking care of planer tear out etc., than flattening. On the other hand, I sometimes get some really nice stock, for example a drawer front, that is bowed - I assume a fore or jointer plane would be a good way to flatten such a board? Also, the good quality jointers are really pricey - would it work to get a medium quality jointer, than finish with the good LN smoother I already have?
Hammer suggested a low angle rabbet plane. These look pretty good. Are they comfortable to use?
Finally - a medium or small bullnose plane looks fairly practical. Any comments?
Sorry for being so long-winded, and asking so many questions, but the $$$ are burning a hole in my pocket, and I'm eager to make a decision and start enjoying my new planes.
Thanks again, everyone.
I have the LA rabbiting block plane and I use it all the time, it is very usefeul for fitting the cheeks of tennons and general cleanup. I recomend it highly.
"I'm not sure about a jointer plane - Obviously they excel at flattening, but I generally start with wood that has been through a thickness planer. "
Remember that a planer will only make two parallel faces. If it is not flat when it goes through the planer it will be parallel but not flat. First let me state that I am a plane rookie. I was afraid of them to be honest. After learning how to sharpen, I got the LN #7. My specific need was to flatten stock so I could feed it through the planer. I have a 6" delta jointer that is a piece of S###. After asking the folks here I sprang for the #7 and all I can say is WOW. Just this past week-end, I took some 2x8 stock that was F2S, but had twisted and cupped badly, and made usable stock out of it. A year ago, I would have cussed and chucked it, or used small pieces and the rest would have become scrap.
I also bought the low angle jack plane. I use it on smaller stuff, and they say it's claim to fame will be with highly figured wood (Have not had a chance to verify, but don't doubt it). I also now have the little block plane (I have the bug) for taking off small high spots.
I have not had any experience with the other brands, but love the LN's. Take care
My requirements for a plane seem (to me) to run more along the lines of cleaning up a face, taking care of planer tear out etc., than flattening.
By far, the best way to clean up the face of a board is not to make a mess of it in the first place.. Invariably machine induced tear out happens whenever you're dealing with reversing grain, something that no power plane can hope to deal with anywhere near as effectively as a hand plane...
If you want to spend a lot less time with your scraper, add a York pitch frog to your 4 1/2 and set the throat real tight... Believe me there's nothing more capable to bring the best out of reverse grain than that York pitch frog...
I'd agree with the suggestions to get a longer bed plane; having the capability to work with rough sawn boards negates the need to plane out someone else's muncher induced mess... Add a scrub plane to that and you've all the tools you need to render the wood munchers obsolete; the scrub will cut the initial shape into the board, your jack will refine the shape, a long bed plane will even and refine the surface while the 4 1/2 will release the full potential of the character in the wood...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Bruce--
I have both a low angel and regular L-N adj mouth block planes--The low angle is great for end-grain, but it is more prone to tearout if I'm using it to take down an inlay or a table edge or things like that. That being siad, I find either of them to be far and above the quality of my old stanley, which still resides in my carpenter's bad and sees a fair amount of use on jobsites.
I have 2 scraper planes that collects more dust than they ever made--enough said.
Now, my shoulder plane, I would be lost without it. It's invaluable for finetuning tennons and rabbets and things of the sort. I looked seriously at the L-N model but decided to go with the Clifton 3 in one. I found the L-N to be a little large for some work, and the clifton has switchable noses so it can be a bullnose, or chisel plane also.
A jointer can be useful, but for $400 that the L-N #7 costs, you're 1/2 way to a decent power jointer...
I hope this helps, I'm sure you'll love whatever plane you decide to buy...Peter
jpswoodworking.com
In his great DVD, Hand Planing and Sharpening, available from L-N, Rob Cosman makes the case that the four "shop essential" planes are: (1) low angle adjustable mouth block plane, (2) #41/2 smoother, (3) #7 or #8 jointer and (4) the rabbet block plane.
But then in his next DVD, "Rough to Ready" Rob spends the first half the video working with a scrub plane! Go figure.
I own the L-N #4 1/2 and a #7 jointer, with the jointer being my first serious foray into quality hand tools. What an eye opening experience using that bad boy has been. No noise, no dust, no safety issues of any kind, and it will beat hands down the surface a power jointer will produce.
Yea, that #7 cost half what a power job goes for, but as a home hobbyist, now that I have learned how to make that thing sing, I can't put a power jointer anywhere on my top 20 list of "like to have power tools".
Chris
Bruce,
I recently went through the same series of considerations but I have never used planes before. I have a specific project that uses a lot of highly figured stock so I settled on a L-N low angle adjustable mouth block, No. 4 smoother with the standard and the optional high angle frog and the scrapper plane. My choices we dictated my need. I'll learn to use these planes to finish my material and then I step down to learn to true the boards.
I can't say enough good things about the scrapper plane: it acts like both a scrapper and a smoother. I just finished five drawer fronts and six door panel inserts of resawn big leaf maple and the results, even for a beginner, were truly spectacular. I think the scrapper it will pay for itself by the sand paper and dust masks I won't have to buy any more.
Doug
Doug:
Which L-N scraper model did you get? Do you find yourself sharpening it frequently when working hardwoods?
I got the 4 1/2 smoother. I'm still just experimenting a bit, and haven't had time to use it enough to require sharpening. I also haven't yet really checked to see if it needs any fine tuning - it works so well out of the box I'm halfway afraid to do anything that would change the set-up! (Not really, but it is a real compliment to Lie-Nielsen that it works so well with no adjustment.)
I still haven't decided which plane(s) to get next. Rather than rush out and spend the money, I decided to take my time, play around a bit, and think about it. I did just get the Garrett Hack book on hand planes, which may help.
If the No. 7 or No. 8 jointer planes from LN weren't so expensive, I'd probably buy one of those, but I will have to be really convinced I will use them enough to justify the outlay. I did recently re-read a FWW review of the Lee Valley No. 6 fore plane, which recommended it as a good choice for flattening panels. Anyone out there have an opinion on whether a No. 6 is really long enough for that?
Dave and Doug - Ooops, I inadvertantly jumped in the middle of Dave's question for Doug. I read the question too quickly, and thought it referred back to my original message. Sorry about that!
I've been spending a fair bit of time lately with my new L-N #6... awesome tool. I've changed the frog to a york pitch (better suited to the grain with the boards I'm working on). Minutes after swapping the frog (note I hadn't touched the blade yet) I was taking shavings around 1.6 thou from really wild grain... and that was cutting against the grain...
While there's enough heft in the tool to tackle difficult grain with authority, it isn't so heavy that it'll reduce you to a a greasy puddle in minutes; really comfortable in the hands too.
It's long enough to have flattened these boards to less than 2 thou over 3ft (inserting a double thickness cig paper under the straight edge causes it to tip ever so slightly end to end), leaving a surface that only needed a light pass with the smoother to bring it up to snuff...
If L-N is beyond your budget, have a look at Clifton or Lee Valley... both come highly recommended, have excellent factory backed warranties and first class customer service... to my mind, their only weakness compaired to L-N is having to use a back bevel to achieve york pitch...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
There is a nice write up (at least for us rookies) in the June FWW on planes . The Lee Valley and the Leigh Nielson both come out on top but the LV is about half the price of the LN.Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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There is a nice write up (at least for us rookies) in the June FWW on planes .
The June issue hasn't arrived here yet... nothing abnormal there; it tends to be around a 3 week delay... tryin to keep up with threads here, sticking fingers in my ears when ya'll discuss current issue content gets me some queer looks...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Sorry I got it at a news stand in Chicago O'Hare on Sunday (Business trip to Webster City, IA). I just assumed that if it was in the news stands that it was also in the mail too...I won't tell any more except the part about the:-)
Mark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
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ye can go off some people ye ken... ;P~
<stifled chuckle...
how come nobody discusses the adds... just the juicy bits.. sheeshhhMike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
SawStop has a full page ad on a right side page (page 5 I think).2 pages after the TOCMark
Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.
View Image
OK, Master, I must ask - What is a York pitch? And if the only real difference between the L-N and a Clifton or Lee Valley is putting a back bevel on the plane iron, why wouldn't you go with either of them and save the cash? I use the ruler trick for sharpening my plane irons, and it's easy to get the back bevel. In fact, it's easy to get it freehand without the ruler trick.
Sincerely,
GrasshopperMitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
OK, Master, I must ask - What is a York pitch?
looky here...
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/tool.html?id=HAF
And if the only real difference between the L-N and a Clifton or Lee Valley is putting a back bevel on the plane iron, why wouldn't you go with either of them and save the cash?
OK... ya want fine detail huh..?? There's a wee bit more of a difference between each of the three.
Clifton dinna use ductile iron; if it drops, chances are it breaks...
The rake of the rear totes in all the L-V planes are geared towards a higher bench than mine, bigger hands too from what I hear... ergonomically they won't work for me...
L-N's feel like they were made for my hands, the rake of their totes are perfectly suited to my bench height, they're made from ductile iron giving them a god chance of surviving a misshap, interchangeable frogs mean I can change from standard pitch to york pitch in around 4 mins without messing with back bevels...
By far the biggest attraction for me is L-N's range of planes; bigger than Clifton and L-V combined, although L-V are fast catching up....
In fairness to all 3 companies, they're so close in build qualit and customer service that there's next to no choosing between them. I bought mine with the intention of using them as my primary woodworking tools; I've retired both my jointer and thickness planer in favour of the hand planes...
Given that my intention was to work the tools as hard as I'm able for as long as I'm fit, I can justify their cost... to me at least... to date each and every one of them has demonstrated that my choice was a good one... each to their own taste...
One last point... I've read more than a few comments here along the lines of "ya gotta be loaded or daft or both to spend that kinda cash on a plane.." I canna argue the daft.. but loaded..??? I wish... I'm very much blue collar, single, no kids... there isn't a bookie or barman who knows me by name... I prefer to "invest" my hard earned... not piss it away...
Oh... forgot t mention... if ya keep rubbin yer legs together like that... people will talk... ;P~~~
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 6/8/2005 4:15 pm ET by Mike
Master,
Follow-on stupid question: If the difference between a common pitch and a York pitch is 5* (45* vs. 50*), couldn't you make the change by simply having two plane irons, each with the appropriate bevel angle, rather than having to buy two separate frogs to change the pitch? I mean, unless you're going to buy a second plane iron anyway to keep in the second frog, you're going to have to swap out the plane iron from one frog to the other. So it seems as though there wouldn't be any time savings in having two frogs. And replacing a plane iron and re-adjusting the plane isn't the hardest thing I've ever had to learn to do. So what am I missing?
Btw, I appreciated the comparison of the Clifton, L-V and L-N planes.
Respectfully submitted,
GrasshopperMitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
So what am I missing?
Mitch... it's a preference thing... I prefer to switch frogs as / when required... if juggling blades is more to your liking then there's nothing at all wrong with that... each to their own...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mitch,
You are right, with one exception ... it's not a matter of changing the 'bevel angle' that gets you from 45 to 50, because these are bevel-down planes they're talking about, with the York pitch frogs. So, to change the angle of attack, you have to change either the frog or the back angle - with a back bevel. And, back bevels seem to me to be somewhat a one-way street - i.e., it ain't easy, once you've put a back bevel on an iron, to 'go back' to a flat back - a lotta metal to remove. (Eventually over many sharpenings, the original bevel will move back enough to eliminate the back bevel, but not quickly.)
The 'sweet spot' for easily changing attack angles seems to be in the LA bevel-up designs, where changing the bevel angle does change the angle of attack.
Hope this helps ...
Clay
So, to change the angle of attack Yep I was Army Artillary and we moved up the 8 inch guns...
Clay,
"You are right, with one exception ... it's not a matter of changing the 'bevel angle' that gets you from 45 to 50, because these are bevel-down planes they're talking about, with the York pitch frogs. So, to change the angle of attack, you have to change either the frog or the back angle - with a back bevel. And, back bevels seem to me to be somewhat a one-way street - i.e., it ain't easy, once you've put a back bevel on an iron, to 'go back' to a flat back - a lotta metal to remove. (Eventually over many sharpenings, the original bevel will move back enough to eliminate the back bevel, but not quickly.)
The 'sweet spot' for easily changing attack angles seems to be in the LA bevel-up designs, where changing the bevel angle does change the angle of attack."
When Mike was referring to the York pitch, he was talking about his #6 plane - that's not bevel-down, is it? If it is, I have some more learning to do about certain types of planes (as if I didn't already). :-)
Let me know,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
actually... you're both right, bevel downs need a back bevel to change the angle of incidence if you're not changing the frog... and once added its a PITA to remove... hense my preference for the york pitch frog over the back bevel... If I want to go back to 45 deg pitch I swap the frog back to standard pitch... with a back bevel you're lookin for another blade... or you've a lot of grinding to do....
as I said earlier... each has its merits... just gotta choose which is best for you....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mitch ...
Ummmm ... yeah. (Although I had to back up quite a few messages to see if this was a 'yes' or not!) Mike's LN #6 (like all the LN and LV and Stanley 'bench' planes #s 1-8) is bevel-down ... thus, the current hoohah over new bevel-up planes as an advance in flexibility over all the 'regular' bevel-down ones - Angle of attack can be changed (infinitely, not just between Standard and York pitches) by the angle at which you grind the iron's bevel.
I've never used back bevels, but I'm jes' about to - got my spankin' new LV Son Of Honing Guide and a pile of paper down to .3 micron from Joel, Mike T. in Katy just finished working on a 604 for me, and I'm gonna take the plunge ... just any ol' week now ...
Clear as mud?
Clay
Clay,
I subscribe to the David Charlesworth/Rob Cosman school of sharpening, which incorporates "the ruler trick" to hone a small back bevel. My sense is that the back bevel helps, especially in paring actions vs. chopping. But I also think that whether or not you put a back bevel on your plane iron pales in comparison to the quality of the plane iron you have. Those planes that have Hock irons, vs. the originals Stanleys, just plane work remarkably better. And not surprisingly they hold their edge longer than the original irons. I've heard a lot about replacing the chipbreaker as well, but so far I've resisted, opting to hone the original chipbreaker to ensure optimal contact.
Anyway, that's myexperience, FWIW.
Take care,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
My personal favorite is the Gulfstream IV, it's a bit pricey but worth
every penny. Tom ;-)You Don't Know.
You Don't Want to Know.
You Aren't Going to Know.
My personal favorite is the Gulfstream IV, it's a bit pricey but worth every penny.
I'm a traditionalist. Gooney bird (that's a Dakota to those over the pond).Leon Jester
Hi Mitch. I hope you are not back beveling your chisels "paring actions vs. chopping". You only back bevel a plane iron, and you do it to shorten sharpening time. Some people will apply a back bevel to alter the cutting angle of their bevel down planes but this bevel is not what the "ruler trick" is about. Peter
Hey Peter,
If I said I was putting a back bevel on a chisel, I'm sure I meant to say a micro-bevel. I've only put a back bevel on my plane irons.
Hope things are well,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Just to be perfectly clear.......No bevel of any kind on the flat side of a chisel...right?
No bevel of any kind on the flat side of a chisel...right?
Absolutely... can hone as you please on the beveled edge... the back should be perfectly flat... not even the ruler trick...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hi Mike. I am making sure that Mitch is aware of it. His post makes me think otherwise.
"Just to be perfectly clear.......No bevel of any kind on the flat side of a chisel...right?"
You betcha.Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
You betcha.
Attaboy.. ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Attaboy.. ;)
Hey, even a coin flip is right half the time...Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
Mitch,
You said: "I've heard a lot about replacing the chipbreaker as well, but so far I've resisted, opting to hone the original chipbreaker to ensure optimal contact." I'm in about the same boat, but as long as I have to order a new iron for this new 604, I'm gonna get the 'improved' LN chipbreaker and give it a try.
If I remember right, a comparison in one of the mags (was it Blackburn in FWW?) a well-known hand tool type said that while the heavier irons helped, it was the heavier chipbreaker that made most of the difference. This seemed sorta counterintuitive, but I am willing to believe ...
We all straight now on whose plane has bevels facing which way? I suspect that you, like I, got tangled up in which plane was under discussion ...
But, as long as I'm here, here's a pic of my new 604, fresh from Mike in Katy, awaiting its new iron and lever cap ... (Anybody got a Type 5 or 6 Bedrock 604/605 lever cap they'd like to sell me reasonable?)
Clay
Clay,
Nice looking plane. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm straight on what's bevel up and bevel down now.
Re: The chipbreakers - it's a combination of cost considerations and the vast improvement I've experienced simply by swapping out the blade. I'll have to look for the article you mentioned. My sense is that it's very important to make sure the chipbreaker is well-tuned, not that a thicker/stronger one wouldn't help that much more.
First let me get the bandsaw - then maybe I can start thinking about chipbreakers, or for that matter, just replacing one or two of my Stanleys with L-Ns.
Take care,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
not that a thicker/stronger one wouldn't help that much more.
Ahem...
nuh uhhhh...
you're right enough about the importance of tune... but the thicker chip-breaker makes a hellova difference even to a thick A2 blade...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike's done an awesome job on your Bedrock... real nice lookin plane...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
For hard, figured maple I've been delighted with the Lee Valley low angle #6 with the 55 degree iron. This plane can easily cope with awkward reversing grains and has the heft to allow a smooth follow-through on the push stroke.
To make things a little easier, I recently bought the LV Scrub plane with its rounded blade. This is definately the way to start the job if you are working from rough sawn boards. If you're buying one of these, get the A2 steel blade - it's much harder than the HSS blade.
Starting with the scrub plane, and finishing with the low angle #6 allows me to perfectly flatten a 2x6x6 foot maple board in under an hour. Mind you my arms look like Arnold Schwartzenager's now.
Edited 6/14/2005 7:46 pm ET by Raptor
Bruce,
If you're going to be using a hand plane to do work like fine tuning an assembled drawer so it fits exactly into a drawer opening, you'll want to use a plane that's long enough to bridge across two adjacent surfaces simultaneously, e.g., a drawer front and a drawer side.
I've attached a picture for you - easier than trying to use words to explain the process; sorry if it's a little blurry.
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Same technique I like to use to bring a box to a perfect fit.
Jazzdogg..
That you? From the side I thought it was Scott Phillips....
Will,
No, I'm the one behind the camera; the instructor in the photograph is Dave Thomsen, one of our four full-time instructors whose areas of specialization are hand-tool joinery (pictured), and veneering.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Getting a shoulder plane changed my life. If your work includes a lot of M&T joints, it woudl be my choice.
I'd get a shoulder plane especially if you intend to remain mostly a power tool shop.
If you're considering building projects completely with hand tools then your next two planes should be a jointer and a scrubber.
If you're trying to tame tear-out in highly figured woods, the Lie-Nielsen suggestion is to use the high-angle frog (also known as York pitch) in 4 1/2 or even better the 5 1/2. Rob Cosman's suggestion is that the extra 1.5 pounds of the 5 1/2 will help you get through the figured woods more easily, especially since it's harder to push with the high-angle frog.
Just to add my 2c worth, for highly figured lumber, I do final smoothing with a Veritas 4 1/2, using a 35 degree front bevel and a 15 degree "back" bevel on the blade. It produces a totally different shaving.
Quote from Lee Valleys web site:
"A back bevel of 15 will yield a cutting angle of 60 (see Figure 5); this will result in an entirely different cutting action from the standard 45, producing what is known as a Type II chip (or shaving) as opposed to a Type I (reference: The Complete Guide to Sharpening). With this type of chip the wood shaving fails right at the cutting edge, eliminating tear-out and enabling the working of difficult grain patterns. This type of cutting action is similar to that produced by a scraper."
This really works well, it's easier and less expensive than doing a frog change.
I received as a Christmas gift a LN 4.5 smoother plane, and some money, with the note, "If you like this plane, go buy a couple more." Dumb question - of course I love the LN! So I'm wondering what else I should buy.
IF IT WAS A WOMAN I GET HER TICKETS AND DINNER!
Good advice, but the gift of the LN plane and money came from my Dad. My wife (of 30 years) will not, as a matter of principle, buy me tools for gifts. I guess she figures I'll eventually buy what I need, anyway.
Just as you found with your Craftsman, much of a plane's performance it owes to the tuning it has received. LN is nice since they are essentially pre-tuned, but in my experience, decent old planes can work just great.
When I jumped into handplaning with both feet many years ago, I bought a Stanley 5 jack plane off of eBay. It looked pretty good in the small picture, but when I received it, I was surprised to see it was covered in black spray paint. In the small digital pic that paint had just looked like shadow, etc. Undeterred, I used laquer thinner and scotchbright pads etc. to clean it up. I had to clean-up or fettle the hell out almost every part of the plane. In the process, I learned the tool inside and out. I bought a LN Stanley thickness replacement blade and can't say enough good about how well that jack performs for me.
I've had similar good luck with Stanely 7, 3, 4, 78, etc. I find the SW (sweetheart) vintage from the 20's and 30's to be a sweetspot in the production as having all the good features, well made, and reasonably priced.
Decent worker examples of most of these planes can be had for well under $100 on eBay, and some are in the $30 to 50 range. Add another $30 or so for an LN blade, and you have a great plane for a really good price. And you can get a few planes to try for the price of single LN plane.
If you don't trust your ability to pic a winner on eBay, there are good used tool dealers who will sell you worker (as opposed to collector) planes at decent prices (not as low as eBay, but still very fair). For example, I've bought many great vintage tools from Patrick Leach [email protected] His Stanley Blood and Gore web site is also an invalubale resource for learning about all the Stanley planes http://www.supertool.com
What plane to buy next depends on what you want to do. Shave tenons - get a shoulder plane. Joint boards - get a 7. Surface rough lumber - get a 40. Etc.
Edited 6/8/2005 9:51 am ET by Samson
I'm right with you my friend, and this is a very good thread. Could I add my 2 cents and then a question? I have the 4 1/2 LN, the adjustable low ang block LN, the med. scraper LN. No regrets whatsoever. Lie-Nielsen is what American manufacturing used to be.
Tom Lie-Nielsen claims that the No. 62 low angle jack is the best tool he makes. Does anyone have this and can verify that this is a great plane to own? I'm ready to spring for it as soon as my next commission is done. I do not have a jointer plane yet because I have been relying on my power jointer. Do I go jointer or low ang jack?
I would say that you have answered your own question, you do not own a jointer yet. Why compromise on your jointer, the longer the better. Peter
The #62's a real fine plane; the ability to change its characteristics with a quick swipe over a stone make it invaluable while the addition of a toothing blade broadens its use almost to the point where you could work a board with just that one plane and a selection of blades. It's long enough to start to refine the shape in a board, light enough to work for quite some time without fatigue.
To my mind however it has 2 points that it can't cover;-a/ it lacks the overall length to be successful as a sub for a jointerb/ it lacks the heft to deal with difficult grain with authority
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
Perhaps I'm doing something wrong, but I'm not too impressed with my LN #62.
It's not as comfortable, as a #5 smoother, for real fine shavings the lack of lateral blade adjustment is a bit problematic and one has to keep the blade real sharp, in comparison to a bevel down plane.
I would grab my old #6 Stanley every time, before the LN. Granted, I can't use the Stanley as a low angle block.
Jellyrug... have you thought about cambering the blade to overcome the latteral tweaking thang..?? You don't mention the angle you hone at so its difficult to guess where the prob might be with your edge longevity; I tend to keep mine at around 30 deg and it seems to hold its own compared to my bevel downs...As for handle comfort.. can't help there; mine feels as if it'd been made for me (as do my other L-N totes). Never really thought about it before but compared to "you lot".. it seems my hands are far smaller... Maybe I shoulda been a surgeon... Sturgeon..?? Don't go there..!! ;)Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike,
I use the LN 62 mostly for difficult grain, perhaps this is why I'm not making a fair comparison with my smoothers.
I hone three bevels on the iron, being 1000 grit at 35 degrees, followed by 6000 grit at 37 degrees, followed by 8000 grit at 38 degrees. This gives me a blade angle of 50 degrees. I take off, or round the sharp edge corners on a buffer.
I have a spare blade, which I should try at a smaller angle.
The one thing about a low angle bevel up, is that the wear which affects performance is on the back (non bevel, or flat side) of the iron. When sharpening, we sharpen the front (bevel side) of the iron, so by comparison it is necessary to remove more steel when sharpening. It also takes longer.
Edited 6/16/2005 7:07 pm ET by Jellyrug
Jellyrug,
"I hone three bevels on the iron, being 1000 grit at 35 degrees, followed by 6000 grit at 37 degrees, followed by 8000 grit at 38 degrees. This gives me a blade angle of 50 degrees."
I hope you'll excuse my ignorance, but I've never heard of anyone putting three bevels on a plane iron before. What do you think it does for you - especially since you point out that much of the wear of the bevel-up iron is on the back of the iron. Also, did you learn this trick of the trade from other folks you've worked with, an instructor, or your own intuition?
Looking forward to hearing your response - it's an interesting take on "conventional" wisdom.
Best regards,Mitch
"I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."
At that effective angle you shouldn't be having any trouble at all; 50 deg is more than capable of dealing with wild stuff... Have you ruled out grain reversal as the cause??
The one thing about a low angle bevel up, is that the wear which affects performance is on the back (non bevel, or flat side) of the iron.
Forgive me, but I don't understand what you're saying there. These past 3 years I haven't built a project that hasn't seen my #62 used on it somewhere along the line and I've yet to see any evidence of wear on the back of the blade; nothing there but a fine polish.
Granted, sharpening the primary bevel is a pain in the proverbial, but then that's the price ya pay for having a thick blade.. Honing the secondry is no different to any of my bevel downs, up to and including using the same honing angles... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Hone 3 bevels?
Lots of questions about why I use three bevels on a plane iron.....
To tell the truth, I'm not sure and would have to think about this for a while, but it's the way my father taught me in Europe back in the sixties when still alive and he had good reasons for everything. Wish I could be 1/2 the craftsman he was.
I found someone else here in the good old US doing the same thing though and he has analyzed it far beyond my experience. You can see his wisdom here.
The one poster noted that his bevel up plane does not wear on the back of the iron, which is the part facing the the wood. Which part of the blade wears then?
By the way, even LN agrees that a smoother is better for dedicated smoothing than a block, but without the versatility.
Edited 6/17/2005 12:48 am ET by Jellyrug
Hi Jelly. I checked out that link and that guy has way too much spare time on his hands. I still can not find any reason why to hone 3 bevels. The very edge is the only part to cut the wood so that is all that needs honed. As to the flat side of a bevel up plane being the side that gets the wear, I don't see it. When an iron has dulled, the edge is dull. The edge is 2 sides and not just 1. The dullness is basically a bevel just like the author says. It is a bevel on the flat side and it is a bevel on the beveled side. This is why we hone to get a wire edge, because it means that it has cut through the wear bevels, back and front. Same thing on a bevel up plane. And lastly, I totally agree that a smoother is better for smoothing than a bevel up plane, I am not a big fan of bevel up planes. P.S. What does your forum name mean? Peter
Peter,
Yep, he had a lot of time on his hands, but the ultimate detail is useful and we can learn from it.
I was joking a bit in the previous post, there is method in the madness.
The reason I hone three bevels on a plane iron, which is the way I was taught as a kid, is simply because it's the quickest way to get the iron sharpened and back into the plane. I use a Veritas guide, so the three angles each come with a click of a knob on the guide. Perhaps the jig designer was on the same page as my Tutor?
The principle is that the finer grit you grind at, the longer it takes, this is why almost no one hones only the primary bevel. So, if I use three grits, the roughest grit takes away metal the quickest, being the first honed bevel. To re-hone this entire bevel with a finer grit will take longer, than just honing a new sharper angle from the edge doing the second bevel. The same holds true for the third bevel with the finest grit.
About the wear on a plane iron, specially a bevel up plane:
The iron wear takes place on both faces of the iron, but you get more wear on the side facing the wood, as there is more pressure and accordingly more friction here. The top part of the iron, when wearing, does not affect performance that much, as all you are doing is changing the total blade angle. The bottom part, riding on the wood though, changes your clearance angle, which makes a BIG difference. On a bevel up plane, this is the back of the iron. We don't sharpen the back, but the front, so you have to remove more metal to get back into business and it takes longer. I find on my LN 62 iron, I get a full wire edge, yet, there is still a wear bevel on the back of the iron and I have to hone longer to get back to the true face. With my smoothers, the wear bevel is on the front of bevel side of the iron, which is where we hone, so it's much quicker to remove.
Edited 6/17/2005 11:29 am ET by Jellyrug
Edited 6/17/2005 12:20 pm ET by Jellyrug
"P.S. What does your forum name mean? Peter"
Guess I should change it for the more serious types....
I did an assignment for Coca-Cola in the Middle East, built three factories and got hooked on Persian rugs. I got upset when accidently spilling some Jello on one and the wife called me "Jellyrug". It became my handle.
Jellyrug,Another rug guy, eh? What's your poison? (For me, it's the Caucasians - Kazaks, Shirvans, etc.) I knew it had become a problem when, after the floors and walls were full ... I didn't stop. They're stacked under my beds like cordwood. I give 'em to siblings for gifts.Clay
Miami,
As with you, I ran out of space, so the addiction is gone now. I use to buy offshore while working and bring back home with every trip. To answer your question, I would have to do a bit of inventory, but I use to study the cultures, the patterns the origins etc.
I have purchased from all over Persia, Russia, India, Middle East and made my purchases in several countries.
The best ones are those you buy from the person who made them. One persons work, which took around 14 months to complete. They change colors when viewed from different angles and the hand made work is evident in the small differences where patterns are repeated.
They look best amongst custom made furniture on wooden floors. I hang the 100% silk ones on my walls.
Guess we are getting off topic here, so I better quit. Also, I don't want to kickstart this addiction again, as buying here in the US is EXPENSIVE.
Which part of the blade wears then?
Simply put... the cutting edge, defined as the intersection between the bevel and the back of the blade. Honing either one raises a burr on the other which is why you give both faces a tickle on the stone. Once that burr has been sufficiently weakened it'll either fall away on its own or with a light strop (Sgian's palm of the hand or DC's t-shirt for instance). The only abrasion in the whole process is when steel meets stone... Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
"used on it somewhere along the line and I've yet to see any evidence of wear on the back of the blade; nothing there but a fine polish. "
Which part of the blade wears then?
"Simply put... the cutting edge, defined as the intersection between the bevel and the back of the blade. "
Mike, I guess it's all about semantics here...
For the cutting edge to wear, the two faces leading up to your intersection has to wear. Both faces wear, at the intersection, the one face a bit more than the other. If you have never seen wear on the back face, called a "wear bevel", you have never had the need to resharpen your iron.
I think we are saying the same thing, it's all in the English.
If you have never seen wear on the back face, called a "wear bevel", you have never had the need to resharpen your iron.
<chucklin...
How I wish that were true... Don't get me wrong, honing the secondry bevel is a walk in the park, but re-cutting the primary.. sheeshhh. Takes forever if you let the secondry get outa control... DAMHIKT... Discovered more than a few choice words while doing that job... Still.. was worth it in the end...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
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