Replies

1. 
   captainkidd | Dec 25, 2007 12:02am | #1

   Pedro, I have the Lie-Nielsen router plane(s) (I have the small one too) but I have only had the chance to use it once. I really like it so far. There was a recent discussion here about the LV -vs- LN router planes. It partly comes down to whether you want an open faced or closed face with LN being the former and LV being the latter. I think most people who have the LV one are real happy with it so I wouldn't hesitate to get it if that's what your heart is set on. I know how frustrating it can get when a company does something that you really don't agree with but you still like their products.

   Hope this helps
   B.Kidd

2. 
   Jimurock | Dec 25, 2007 12:30am | #2

   I have the LV larger one, and it's beautifully made, almost a shame to get it dirty using it.  I've used it a couple of times on maple, and it did a very precise, smooth job.  Really, though, you'd have to speak to someone who's used both.

   If, as I suspect, your problem with LV is over Wentzloff saws, they're probably between a rock and a hard place.  The wait time from Wentzloff itself according to their website is something like 20 weeks, since saws are made individually to order.  If LV has run out of stock at the warehouse, they're stuck.  I got mine quickly because it was in stock in a store where demand was low.

   All the best, Jim

3. 
   DavidCockey | Dec 25, 2007 01:23am | #3

   How bad was your experience with Lee Valley? Were they actually rude to you or did they say sorry, there's nothing we can do and it wasn't what you wanted to hear? (If they were actually rude you should send a note directly to Rob Lee. Based on his postings on other forums that's not the kind of business he runs.)

   Assuming the issue is not getting the saw you expected for Christmas, what was Lee Valley supposed to do if they didn't have a dovetail saw to ship to you? Elsewhere Mike Wenzloff wrote that their production was severely disrupted by a combination of the very bad flooding in the Pacific Northwest a few weeks ago and a death in the family, so I assume shipments to Lee Valley were delayed through no fault of Lee Valley's.

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/24/2007 5:27 pm ET by DavidCockey

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 25, 2007 01:50am | #5

   Hi Jim and David,
   It isn't the saw at all. I completely understand that delays are inherent to hand-made anything. My complaint was that when the schedule slipped they posted two dates, one was January 11th for new orders and one was December 17th for orders already placed. I checked several times and that seemed set until the 15th when they changed it a few days to the 21st. No problem. On the 21st when I called they said they'd known for a while that they wouldn't get anything out until January. If it weren't for Christmas, no problem. But around the holiday season you don't say your going to ship in time for Christmas unless you're going to. That's a reasonable request.Anyway, this was still minor, but I thought it worth mentioning so I wrote an email saying what I've said above. They replied telling me that they hadn't known until the 21st which is a lie, two of their reps had told me on the phone earlier that day they'd known for quite a while. So I wrote back and pointed this out. Their reply was:"We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. Unfortunately it would impractical to notify our customers of all backorder date changes. "So basically "sorry, but we're too busy to tell you when ship-dates slip". So like I said, I'm not miffed about the saw delay, I completely understand that, I'm miffed by how they handled it. A simple "sorry" with nothing else would have been great.Anyway, now I'm whining which wasn't my intent with this post at all. I only wanted to know from anyone who's used both routers if they thought one was better than the other. I don't wish an apocaliptic plague upon Lee Valley, but I would rather buy from people who've been kind, and there are so many to choose from: Philip Marcou, Dave Jeske, Lie Nielsen, Chris Schwartz, etc...Best regards, and Merry Christmas,
   ---Pedro

1. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 28, 2007 12:57am | #23

   I sort of hear you but I do not get upset that often.. I was in Service and has ALOT of experience with folks yelling at me for a part I did not have to fix whatever thad had broken..Highland hardware. I ordered a Leigh FMT and some extra goodies.. Well, I finally got then in two shipments.. All I got back was it was back ordered. Nothing about how long it would be or anything! I was sort of pissed but I wanted it.. SO I waited.. Yes I got a the E-Mail about we regret and such AFTER complaining about it in civil typing!... I finally received the FMT and guess what! All the 'goodies' were back ordered! I just waited.. At least they did not bill my credit card until items shipped..I think they have a second party (which we never know about) that does all the grunt work..And they say we are SERVICE ORIENTED economy these days?? I wonder..And the "We apologize for the inconvenience this has caused you. Unfortunately it would impractical to notify our customers of all backorder date changes. "MY old boss or I would call every customer waiting.. And get the flack.. Personally!

   Edited 12/27/2007 5:00 pm by WillGeorge

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 28, 2007 01:36am | #24

   Thanks Will, I appreciate the support. Like you I've opted to swallow my indignation in the name of better woodworking tools. I ordered the LV router plane, and it should be here on Monday. But I got the scrub plane and beading tool from Lie Nielsen. Their service has been exemplary, and these two tools seem every bit as good, if not better than, the Veritas versions. Originally I had planned to get all of these from Lee Valley, and just the 140 skew from Lie Nielsen. This little episode changed that.Anyway, lots of goodies in the mail, should all be here on Monday. Just in time for me to finish a rosewood box for my wife's birthday on Tuesday. I've promised Lataxe I'll post pictures. I hope you all resist the temptation to point and giggle :)Best regards and have a happy New Year!!!
   ---Pedro

2. 
   saschafer | Dec 31, 2007 07:11pm | #25

   "And they say we are SERVICE ORIENTED economy these days??"

   Sure. They didn't say what kind of service, just service.

   -Steve

    

1. 
   joinerswork | Jan 02, 2008 04:13pm | #27

   Steve,

   Yeah, as G Carlin says, "Just bend over, and I'll service you."

   Ray

4. 
   mwenz | Dec 25, 2007 01:47am | #4

   Hi Pedro,

   I apologize that my inability to keep LV (as well as The Best Things and even individual orders) supplied fast enough has soured you on Lee Valley.

   I truly believe the LV router plane to be better, if for no other reasons than the depth adjustment--but especially the fence design.

   View Image

   The LN fence...like the Stanley:

   View Image

   The LV fence:

   View Image

   The adjustment matters in use as deepening the blade is basically an every-pass thing. The fence matters most as regards stability in use.

   I'll get to your email hopefully today--but if not, soon.

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 25, 2007 01:58am | #7

   Thank you for your reply Mike. Please know that my miffedness with LV had nothing to do with your delays which I completely understand. I just wasn't happy with how they handled it.Also, thanks for your reply. LV Router it is.
   I'll look forward to reading your email.
   Best regard and Merry Christmas,
   ---Pedro

1. 
   mwenz | Dec 25, 2007 02:14am | #8

   Hi Pedro--the slipped dates are my fault as well. Trust me, they would prefer to have saws in-hand to sell. We're working on resolving the lateness of supplying everyone. My main gripe is the individual orders. Both sons have been working on both LV and TBT orders, which leaves me for the individual orders--and the boys often need my presence for everything from janatorial to the guy who fixes broken machinery. So I get pulled away too much for good, even progress on the individual orders.

   I think we've found a space (again) to lease, as well we are proceeding on building a large shop on the property so the vagaries of leasing will affect us less in the future. But building is a slow process (historical society, permitting etc). The move and eventual expansion will allow hiring more people. Right now there are three of us in a 12' x 18' shop. That the boys haven't strung me up from the rafters because of tight quarters is a miracle!

   I take responsibility even for any response from LV you received. If I had been able to produce the saws we make faster (more people and larger space), you wouldn't have had need to write them.

   Take care, MikeWho's now stuck in the kitchen prepping for tomorrow. Merry Christmas one and all.

1. 
   Jimurock | Dec 25, 2007 02:36am | #9

   And I've been complaining about my lack of space!  My hat's off to you for producing that kind of quality under these conditions.

   Best, Jim

2. 
   derekcohen | Dec 25, 2007 02:57pm | #18

   Hi Pedro

   I am probably the one to blame, for two reasons ..

   Firstly, I wrote the article that started the ball rolling.

   Secondly, it is likely my saw (a half back with custom wood) that has probably halted production in the Wenzloff factory and has blocked all manufacturing and deliveries to major outlets.   :)

   Based on my experiences of customer service at LV, I am truly astonished to hear a negative comment. Whether you go to LV or LN I expect that you receive absolutely top flight service. I've had a great deal of communication with both Rob Lee and Thomas Lie-Nielsen. They are two great Gentlemen, both of whom take enormous pride in their reputations. Both companies, nevertheless, are not perfect and experience difficulties from time to time. If Rob Lee discovered that you were unhappy he would personally intevene and more than make things right.

   The (large) LV router plane is worth the wait.

   Merry Christmas

   Regards from Perth

   Derek

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 25, 2007 08:17pm | #19

   I think Lataxe is to blame. He keeps flaunting his exotic tool collection and making me envious. If he hadn't given me saw-envy I would have been happy with a rusted hacksaw. Damn the English!I was truly astonished as well. I've always had wonderful customer service from them, and I always made a point of finding a tool from them when I had a specific need. That's why this caught me off guard and I wrote the original email. It was their reply that annoyed me, though that's wearing off pretty quickly.I'm sure after I get their router plane I'll go back to loving them as much as I did after I got their BU Jointer. That, by the way, was also your fault. I got it after reading that 2 part review of yours. I find I can blame you and your tool reviews for a lot of my rapidly vanishing savings. Not a single purchase I regret though...Merry Christmas!
   ---Pedro

1. 
   PADDYDAHAT | Dec 26, 2007 06:48am | #22

   Pedro, I have been buying serious stuff from LV since Mr. Leonard was in charge and twice (in a few hundred transactions) I got a newbe employee in CS who gave me the bum's rush.  I realized later (and not too much later) that they were no longer with the company.  Your issue  would have me angry with the agent but not the company. If it was a serious issue to me,  I would Email Rob Lee, if  minor , call and ask for the head of CS . I have never been disapointed. Merry Christmas, Paddy.

   Edited 12/25/2007 10:49 pm ET by PADDYDAHAT

2. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 25, 2007 08:21pm | #21

   Mike

   Sorry to hear about your woes regarding shop space, and the large backlog.  I'd be happy to welcome you and your son's into the other half of my shop space, if you don't mind moving the operation to Crystal Lake, Illinois.  A fine set of those beautiful saws you are making should suffice!  ;>)

   Hope it smooths out for you, and Merry, Merry Christmas.

   Jeff

5. 
   Samson | Dec 25, 2007 01:50am | #6

   I've done lots of business with LV for many years and never had anything but exemplary service.  I think you either got someone on a bad day at a busy time of year or your expectations as to what LV can do when suppliers (Wentzloff) don't come through are unreasonable. 

   I have the large and small router planes from LV and both are great.

    

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 25, 2007 04:44am | #14

   You may be right.

6. 
   Lataxe | Dec 25, 2007 02:56am | #10

   P,

   Now then, now then!  Are you gettin' that router plane to make a wooden thang (of the immediate kind, soon to be photographed and posted in Knots) or are you in the terrible process of sucumbing to tool-fondle?  You must bare your soul, now; and not hang back. We all will understand, although you must ignore the snickering and knowing smirks.

   What will this router plane do, eh,eh?  I think we should be told.

   Lataxe, who hasn't got one yet.

1. 
   perizoqui | Dec 25, 2007 05:13am | #15

   Little bit of both I'm afraid. I'm making a rosewood and maple box (thousands of hand-made dovetails of course), and I need a groove to put in the maple bottom I've made to the box. Of course I have a perfectly good porter-cable router, but I'd like to make this project using only hand-tools.I made a nice list the other day of all the tools I was hoping to find under the tree tomorrow. Well, I doubt that will happen. But I did get a wonderful Christmas bonus from the university today. So I'm lining up some purchases of key tools so I can perform the basic functions. The router plane together with the LN beading tool should get me some of the way towards power tool independence. With the space I save in my small shop, I'm putting in a new workbench like the French ones in Chris Schwartz' excellent new book.As soon as I've finished the box (no later than the 1st as that is her Birthday), I'll post some pictures.
   Merry Christmas,
   ---Pedro

2. 
   perizoqui | Jan 02, 2008 07:44am | #26

   Lataxe,
   As promised I have completed and posted pictures of my first exclusively hand-tooled adventure. I would love your commentary and criticism, and I think I'll need it if I'm to get better.
   You can find the thread in the gallery section at:
   http://forums.taunton.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=fw-knots&msg=39325.1
   Thank you sir, in advance, for your uncensored criticism. I pretend to know much about food and drink, but I know little about that, and less about woodworking.
   Best,
   ---Pedrop.s. To all: thank you for recommending I go with the LV router plane. It is a blast to use and works amazingly well, even in my hands.

   Edited 1/1/2008 11:47 pm ET by perizoqui

7. 
   RU34 | Dec 25, 2007 03:01am | #11

   Pedro,

    First let me say I don't have experience with either the LN or LV, I have a vintage Stanley. It has been mentioned that one of the differences between the two is the open base or closed base. You can add a thin wooden sub-base to the LN to make it a closed base. In fact I have done so with my Stanley and prefer the wood on wood contact. By the way, I have never used the fence with my Stanley, I can't think of a good reason to use one. I am curious what others use it for.

   Paul Dzioba

1. 
   Samson | Dec 25, 2007 03:04am | #12

    can't think of a good reason to use one

   I'm not trying to be smart, but have you ever used a fence on an electric handheld router?  Same sort of thing - cutting a groove or dado a desired distance from an edge.

1. 
   RU34 | Dec 25, 2007 09:39am | #16

   Samson,

   I use a plow to do grooves and a dado to do dadoes. My router is used for hinge gains, inletting, or sliding dovetails.  All of these operations are done freehand, no fence required for the router. I avoid stopped dadoes or grooves mostly. A mortise gauge and chisel  will usually suffice for them. The router is a pretty basic tool and my Stanley or my allen wrench cutter home made mini router gets the job done. If you like new, either the LN or LV are fine.

   Paul Dzioba

   P.S. I think my Stanley is much more handsome than the LN or LV!

1. 
   dgreen | Dec 25, 2007 10:15am | #17

   allen wrench cutter home made mini router

    

   I for one, would be highly interested in more detail. I love making tools from readily available items.------------------------------------

   It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore

2. 
   mwenz | Dec 25, 2007 03:46am | #13

   Hi Paul,

   I use mine for stopped grooving--just did last night.

   I use to own a Stanley as well as a Miller Falls version. Virtually identical right down to the small fence. Sold them a couple years ago with no regrets (and I do like vintage tools).

   With a large enough fence like the LV, grooving with a router plane is as easy as a plow plane with the exception of lowering the cutter. With the LV, that is a simple turn of the adjustment knob with each pass. Grooves are as clean as with a plow. Unfortunately, a plow doesn't do stopped grooves very well (not even my little Record 043). The router plane obviates the need to drill and chisel waste to make room for the plow and to clean up the start end.

   In a pinch, one can saw and route dadoes--and again, stopped ones very easily after popping out the waste with a chisel (or competely)...but of course there's no need for a fence in doing dadoes.

   I use a sub-base for when I do lap joints so I can quickly clean, level and fit to tight tolerances quickly. For that no fence is necessary. But if you did want to use a sub-base with a Stanley *and* a fence, it's a pita. Not so with the LV due to its fence design (and means of attaching).

   I have a pretty old craftsman-made router plane. Made from nice Mahogany. One can see where two screw holes are that allowed what I assume was a means to attach a fence. While that would work for same width, same offset grooves, an adjustable fence is nice for situation to situation (like how I didn't layout my DTs well yesterday to allow for the groove!) without needing to make and fit a new fence.

   Take care, Mike

8. 
   JeffHeath | Dec 25, 2007 08:18pm | #20

   Sorry to hear about your bad experience with Lee Valley.  I can tell you, as a pretty regular customer of theirs, that your experience is unique.  If I were you, I'd send a letter to Rob Lee, and I'll bet that he'll do anything within reason to rectify your poor experience.  I purchase all sorts of things from them, including a new set of drill bits just last week, and their CS is without question the best in the business, for me at least, on every transaction I've had with them.

   That being said, I purchased their router plane about 2 years ago.  Understand that I am a tried and true customer of Lie Nielsen when it comes to planes.  I have an entire fleet of LN planes, but at the time of my purchase, LN wasn't making the router plane.  I absolutely love the LV router plane, and use it for more tasks than I ever thought I would.  Their adjustment mechanism is far superior to the old Stanley I had, and the fence allows me to use it as a plow, as Mike Wenzloff suggested.

   Give em' another try, you won't be sorry.

   Jeff