I can not decide which sander to add to my shop. I have a quartersheet electric sander now. I was hoping to minimize the need for a sander by planing & scraping. Still, it seems there’s no getting around the usefulness of a power sander. I can not decide whether to get a random orbital sander or a belt sander. Which one would you all suggest. I’m hoping to not buy both. Seems the quartersheet sander would suffice where a random orbital sander would be used most often, so I’m leaning towards the belt sander. If I must have both, I’d like to know that and why. What do you all think?? My projects are all over the place, from fine furniture to built in’s. Cabinets, book cases, headboards, nightstands, etc. etc.. Please advise…
Jeff
Replies
Jeff,
If you already plane and scrape, are you just wanting to get a final smooth surface for the finish to go on? If so, you need a random orbit sander rather than a belt sander. A belt sander is more of a substitute for a plane - meant to take off quite a lot in order to flatten something. It is difficult to get a scratch-free finish with just a belt sander (although not impossible if you don't mind sanding for ages with a 320 grit belt).
Since I started with planes, getting on for a year ago, the belt sander has stayed in its box. The RO sander also does a lot less than it did - but it still comes out if the grain is tricky or my planing/scraping has left too many track marks.
Although it isn't absolutely necessary, a vacuum extractor connected to the RO will make a big difference to its performance (that's another cost, though). A belt sander is a real messy creature without a vacuum, so its a bit indispensible unless you enjoy dust. :-)
It's worth getting an RO with minimum vibration, a long-lasting pad and good vacuum connection. Also, for finishing a 3mm (1/8th inch) orbit is better than a 5 or 6mm orbit, although slower at removing the wood. Metabo make one that has a dual (ie switchable) orbit, if your funds will run to it.
Lataxe
I would love to sell you my only used once DeWalt belt sander. But I couldn't sell it to you in good conscience because it's too aggressive and difficult to control. A complete waste of money.
I would add a 5" random orbit sander. My DeWalt is great.
The ROS is no good for corners.. but your square sander is perfect for that job.
random orbit...
I use several sanders routinely as follows:
4x24 Bosch EVS Belt Sander WITH THE $125 OPTIONAL SANDING FRAME VERY IMPORTANT - Used for gang sanding multiple parts to remove mill marks without rounding over edges and flattening glued-up panels, usually w/ 150 or 180 grit. Sanding w/ the grain and using only high quality belts (uniform grit) keeps the scratching under control. If you don't want the sanding frame don't get a belt sander. This will limit you to a Euro brand. For the most part the domestic brands haven't figured it out yet. Kinda like the apparently very mysterious riving knife:)
5" EVS Bosch RO - follows the B/S from 100 or 120 grit through 150 grit - They had 2 models to choose from, I picked the cheaper, all plastic one (#1308?). Bad choice - plenty aggressive, but the pad brake sucks so you have to really 'fly' it on and off the work like an airplane. An RO without a good brake isn't all that efficient by the time you double back for swirl marks.
5" Makita RO - less agressive than the Bosch so I use it for the final grits 180 - 220 for film finishes and up to 320 for oil finishes. So I only have to hand sand w/ 400. This is my favorite sander and the one I'd recommend if it was going to be your one and only. The Dewalts are good but they use the cheapest cords in the known world. It's amazing the pass UL. Count on the cords on all the "yellow" tools to fall apart in a year or two.
BTW - In the 5" RO world there's 3 Hook and Loop camps. 8 hole Bosch & Makita; 5 hole PC & Dewalt and Festool has their own proprietary and probably pricey pattern. Stick with Mirka or Klingspoor discs and buy in quantity to get the price down.
1/4 Sht Sander - Porter Cable - use it for inside corners and sometimes on edges.
2 Sanding mistakes I bought to be avoided -
Fein Multimaster - It's a crappy sander, leaves a nasty scratch pattern and the pad beats the sh1t out of the adjacent surface when doing inside corners. It has other uses, but is none the less a huge disappointment. Wanna buy one for 1/2 price? Let me know.
Porter Cable In-line Detail Sander - it's not a sander, it's a joke. All I can say is I'm glad I bought it cheap from the reconditioned bin. It's for sale too, make me an offer.
BTW - As far as I'm concerned all the self-contained dust catchers on sanders are irrelevant - I hook them all up to my Fein Vac.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
>>in Multimaster - It's a crappy sander, leaves a nasty scratch pattern and the pad beats the sh1t out of the adjacent surface when doing inside corners. It has other uses, but is none the less a huge disappointment. Wanna buy one for 1/2 price? Let me know.
Go over to the Breaktime forum & you'll be able to sell that in no time! Lots of finish carps love them for the cutting blades - cutting bottom of door trim, etc.
Actually, I've used mine almost exclusively as a sander, and don't know what else would do the job as well - for my applications. I've used it for auto body sanding in tight places, and for knocking cured epoxy drips off the bottom of tables I've covered with the Envirotex epoxy finish (after removing most of it with a 4-1/2" angle grinder). I tried using my 5" Bosch ROS on these applications, and find that the Fein allows for much better visibility and control in these tight areas, and doesn't bounce like a bigger sander.
One of these days I'll get my garage/workshop finished so that I can start doing more woodworking, then I'll be using the belt sander and ROS more, I'm sure.
I've also got a 1/2 sheet Craftsman, but it only fills a narrow niche between the belt sander and ROS.
Don
I agree its good for the types of things you mention. It's good for trimming plywood edge tape with the putty knife type blade, it does a good job of flush cutting if you're real carefull, and with the carbide blade it is awesome at cutting out grout to R&R tile. I just wish it was as good as the Ryobi detail sander I "traded up" from at fine finish sanding. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
I use a belt sander only when trying to hog out a lot of waste, which is rarely.
My ROS is one of the most-used power tools in the shop. I'd vote for getting the ROS. FWW rated the Bosch well, but my Rigid is a good one (I like how readily it connects to the shop vac for dust pick up). I also use a PC333 (first one busted rather quickly), a Makita (not my favorite), and the Bosch (it's OK). Of all these, I prefer the Rigid because it's quieter, works and feels well, has a long cord (with a velcro cord tie to keep things neat) and the afore-mentioned ease of dust collecting.
Jeff,
Alot of it depends on how much you want to spend. Like one post said if you are planing and scraping by hand you do not need a belt sander. Fine grit sanding belt have a real problem with burnishing the wood and the rough grits can ruin a project in a heartbeat. If you need aggressive and fine fine work get a Rotex from Festool, it has aggressive and fine RO modes. I think Bosch makes a similar machine. Hooked up to a Fein or Festool vac you won't even know you are sanding. If you don't have a vac that comes on when you turn the tool on you can get a unit from Sears(#24312) that will do the same thing. I bought two and hooked up all my tools that have a vac port. I really like it when I use my mitersaw.
There have been many posts complaining about problems with random orbital sanders -- leaving swirls, no less! My sanders are plain vanilla orbital, 1/4- & 1/2-sheet. Seems to me that I can get a random pattern by moving them randomly over the surface. My sanders use economical plain sandpaper, not adhesive or Velcro backed.
Finally, my newest Bosch 1/2-sheet sander is great! It is perfectly balanced and its built-in dust collector box collects very fine powder for use as filler if needed. Filter is reusable. It came with a simple device for punching dust holes in paper. Fastening paper is a bit fussy.
I previously had a Craftsman 1/2-sheet model which voluntarily broke twice in its short lifetime. I made hand sanding blocks from the two platens that I ended up owning. They work well in that application. My $.02 worth.
Cadiddlehopper
I would say a ROS would probably be the best choice. I like the following Makitas, reasonably priced and effective:
http://www.tylertool.com/makbo55ranor.html
http://www.tylertool.com/makitabo5021k.html
If dust collection is of prime concern, then you might want to think about one of the Festool sanders.
As for belt sanders, in cabinetmaking, they are mainly useful in flatening glued up table tops.
I like this one as an all-purpose performer that is easy to handle:
http://www.tylertool.com/por353x21var.html
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Personally, I use my belt sander a lot. I've been using one for a long time and have become pretty good with it. There is a learning curve. I hate RO sanders except for paint prep but I hate pad sanders even more. If your surfacing equipment is set up well, you can go right to hand sanding and not have to deal with removing power sander marks. Nothing worse, to me, than finding an unseen spring mark after the stain goes on. The folks that say they can't see those tell tale marks from orbit or random orbits need glasses. That should raise some feathers! I own several of each type and there are times I need them but I'd rather leave them on the shelf.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Thanks everyone very much. You've taught me much about sanders. Money is not an issue, buying the right tool IS. I hate buying tools more than once. Someone mentioned prep tools being properly adjusted. Mine are, the finish I get from my jointer, planer, table saw is superb, which is why I've been getting away with not having a ROS. In fact, if it wasn't for getting tearout on highly figured woods, I wouldn't worry about it, but that's the problem I'm having.I'm curious about one thing, or one thing I'm not understanding. Some of the replys state that one sander (brand) is more aggressive than another. Wouldn't the aggressiveness be mainly a function of the grit of the sandpaper?? 80 grit more agressive than 320 grit? I suppose the 'random' pattern of one brand over another has some influence, but I wouldn't think it would be that significant. Perhaps that is my ignorance showing itself. I did read the FWW tool comparison some time back on ROS and was leaning towards the Bosch. I have a Bosch jig saw and it's the best jig saw I've ever owned, but it's the only Bosch power tool I own. I'm thinking Bosch 'owns the market' in jig saws. Dust collection is always important to me, so whatever I get must support dust collection in some manner. Porter Cable has a new 5" ROS that I saw reviewed by American Woodworker on the woodworking channel (internet) and it was well reviewed, although I'm not a PC fan (no reason for that though). Lastly, I see Mirka sandpaper recommended a LOT. If you folks haven't bought sandpaper from this site: http://www.onlineindustrialsupply.com/index.htmlYou may be paying more than you should. They carry Mirka. I have found no better prices for abrasives and have purchased a 'lifetime' supply of paper here. Their prices beat everyone I've seen by quite a bit. If you know of a better place/price, let me know.Thanks again....Jeff
If money is not a major issue, and dust collection is, then you should at least consider the Festool sanders.They have a broad line, but these two are probably where you should start. They are exactly the same, except one is slightly more aggressive than the other. http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=34166.1More aggressive:http://www.festoolusa.com/ProductDetails.aspx?id=7&prodid=571541Hooked up to a vac, dust collection is near 100%.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Isn't it amazing when you se a lot of photos in woodworking magazines of somebody building a project, that you see the Festool 6" RO in the background more times than not. I gave my 3727 Bosch to my son.
Jeff100,
Just to add a bit to what Hammer said, the belt sander is also quite useful in the vertical position for sanding to the line after bandsawing. I did some round table tops recently that were just a breeze.
Like you I don't have a ROS..just quarter sanders and the belt. I made a few hand sanders with cork bases, the papers are so good now I can usually do it by hand faster than the time it takes me to set up the sanders.
Aggressiveness is a function of the amperage, RPM, eccentricity of the pad's orbit and dust collection. I think in general the higher powered, faster RO with more eccentricity will remove material more quickly. But as dust removal efficiency increases so does the abrasive cutting action and longevity. So two sanders performing fairly closely 1st and 2nd on specs, may trade places once you hook them up to an excellent vacuum such as a Fein, Wap, Festool or PC. If you're consdering the Festool RO you should also look at the Fein 6" RO.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
The more things change ...
We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.
Petronious Arbiter, 210 BC
Being very partial to pneumatic RO sanders, particularly Dynabrade sanders, I can't really speak to the electric ones, although Dynabrade also make electric sanders of a bewildering variety. But I believe that Random Orbit sanders all function along the same basic principles and differ largely by power source.
Aggressiveness is mostly a function of the eccentricity of the orbit as John said. RO's typically come in three different orbits: 3/16", 3/8" and 3/4". A 3/16" is making tiny little 3/16" orbits while a 3/4" RO is making much larger 3/4"orbits. So the 3/4 is going to be a LOT more aggressive than the 3/16.
I personally prefer the 3/8" orbit as a good happy medium which is servicable across the entire range of sanding needs. A 3/4" orbit is best suited to quickly roughing out a surface while a 3/16" orbit is best suited to polishing and pre-polishing tasks. My 3/8" isn't going to perform either extreme as well, but it is the most versatile of the lot.
I work with a guy who went out and bought himself a shiny new Dynabrade and one day he asked me why it took forever to sand with. Turns out he'd bought a shiny new 3/16" orbit sander and it just couldn't perform on par with my 3/8" Dynabrade.
For tear-out removal, I find a belt sander is hard to beat. A 4x24 sander will remove tear out and level stuff in a jiff. I know folks will ballyhoo about not using a belt sander, but I really like mine and have not noticed any 'problems' caused by my sander (unless I make an error like tipping it). I would hate to give it up, because it can replace an hour of RO sanding in a matter of a few minutes. In addition, it is tempting to sand more in one area with a slow cutting RO sander (causing unevenness) than it is to do the whole thing right with a belt sander.<!----><!----><!---->
That said, I use my RO the most (Makita), followed by my belt (PC) and vibrating sander last (PC Speed Blok and DW). Belt sanding something like a table top I will start with 80, move to 120, and then go back to 80 with the RO (and then progress as normal). This really seems to get any residual belt marks out and leaves a flat surface to boot.<!----><!---->
Paper is important, I use Mirka Gold for the RO and 3M purple (Regalite) belts for the belt sander. For me the 4x24 monster levels and works better than my old 3x21. The 4x24 is big, heavy, intimidating, and worth it when you get the hang of it. Just practice a bit and start on the underside of your next table top!
Well I will go along with the group that says they tend not to use power sanders.
I have a detail sander, I have a ROS (air) and I have a 1/4 sheet sander and I have two belt sanders and they normally sit on the shelf.
The two belt sanders only come out when I have to hog off a lot of wood. (More in general construction then in fine wood working) and the ROS only comes out when I need to play around with a large panel glue up. (It is nice but takes a HUGE amount of air, thankfully I have a very large compressor) and the 1/4 sheet unit I use a fair bit on sticks of various forms but generally I just hand sand them as long as they have either visited the jointer or the planer or they came off a good cut on the table saw or I have pulled out one of then old fashioned hand planes (I have been trying to get the hang of).
So if you are doing a lot of sanding (amount of wood to remove) it is one thing but for most of my finer work I just hand sand. Then again I like my wood work to look like someone did it by hand not in a factory with a robot. (good thing too the way I work :) )
Oh yes I also have a sanding station (disk and belt) and a spindle sander. It just all depends on what you are trying to do with the sander. I don't use any of these very often but when I need them I tend to need them badly. (and use them the same way :) )
Doug Meyer
Hammer,
Hang on a mininute, just smoothing a feather or two. :-)
It's true that some RO sanders leave a swirl, no matter what. I have one, that is used only for rough work (taking the corners of the ply in a jig or whatever). It's a re-badged Ryobi I think.
I have another that is made properly, including a touch-sensitive brake with in-built sensitivity to the load on the pad. The maker states that this technology is to prevent the sort of swirls you mention, either when putting the sander down on to the work or during the sanding process.
As I have glasses, I can report that the finish is indeed swirl-free. Even french polishing does not reveal any fault (not that I do a lot of that, mind). My usual oil-varnish and wax finish is also quite revealing of marks but shows none from this RO.
You can guess what brand this fine RO sander is, I bet. Yes, I'm afraid it's a Festool.
Lataxe, who only has 2 Festools in total, both sanders, honest.
I was out of state during the holidays and stopped by a Woodcraft store. I got a full demonstration of the various Festool machines. The clerk was very knowledgeable about the tools. One of the points made about the sander was the fact that marks were rare, partly due to the uniformity of the sanding grit on the discs in addition to the "brake". The discs were not that expensive, either. The sander was!I've used a lot of sanders including Dynabrade air driven, Hutchins, Ingersol Rand. I wouldn't think twice about grabbing one in a production situation, but that's where I think they belong. I do some auto paints as a hobby. I use ROs for polishing the clear coats and get amazing finishes. Talk about revealing flaws!In my shop, I'm not doing industrial production anymore. By just using a hand sanding block, I cut my time and steps significantly while reducing power usage and eliminating expensive discs. I don't worry about slipping over an edge or lingering too long on a spot. I have more precise control in every situation. Cut out the middle man when you can.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
OK, I have to ask. You are saying that you get by just fine by using sanding blocks and good sandpaper? Is it that easy? Maybe I should give this a try before I get carried away buying power tools....
I won't speak for Hammer1, but I often omit using any power sanding though by no means is this a statement of principle, just expediency. And, I do use the power sanders for certain tasks. The key is how you reached the point in finishing where you need sanding. I almost always have used hand planes after initial flattening and thicknessing with my powered jointer and planer. Consequently, there is little need for sanding except for making the final surface uniform. I often start, and stop, with 220 grit. In that situation, there is little point in the ROS, hand sanding accomplishes the task in about the same time. And, at least on tractable woods, the planing operations go much faster for me than running through the grits from 80 or 100 through 220. Planes remove planer ripple very efficiently. Scraper's are pretty efficient at handleing wood that doesn't want to be hand planed. But, if these tools are struggling (or rather I am struggling with them) the ROS can certainly come to the rescue. But for me, it is the tool of last resort, because of the noise, dust, and tingling fingers.
Hi Jeff. I'm not anti power tool whatsoever. When it comes to RO and pad sanders they sometimes cause problems that have to be fixed by hand so I skip by them. If you have to remove a lot of stock, hand sanding will take a lot of elbow grease. If you can do joinery and assembly without large variations in surfaces being flush, a hand block sander gets the job done easily. You can get up close to adjacent parts, do shapes and edges, not worry about sanding through veneers and generally keep a nice flat, crisp looking job. Good paper does make a difference. In another thread I mentioned that I like Norton 3X. A few strokes with 150-180 will remove planer and other machine marks quickly. Nothing worse than a piece that looks overworked. Time is money in my shop but the final appearance of the project is what counts. If any step compromises these, I do away with it.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
Both sanders have their place in my opinion. The belt sander for fast stock removal. I've got one in the truck and two in the shop. And a cuppla makita baby sanders just for fun....
The 1/4 sheet sanders, well they've been literally parked on the shelf for bout 7 years now. Since I started using ROS, these puppies just don't cut the mustard.
Too slow for stock removal, too much effort to change paper, the ROS has simply eclipsed them in my humble opinion.
Eric
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