Replies

1. 
   nigelUsa | Jul 26, 2002 04:33am | #1

   I did like you looked and looked around and ended up with the dewalt 746k. The biggest reason was good dust collection, 2nd constant blade to fence when leaning over the blade for angle cuts, 3rd motor within the main frame. There are some things I would like to improve but thats with any tool. If you have a woodworkers warehouse near you apply for their credit card and get 10% off. They also have most of the jets and deltas on show. The other saw I liked was the ridgid TS2424 at HD. Cast iron or steel wings? they only have to be flat and cast tends to arrive flat. Try a search because there has been plenty of talk about table saws.

1. 
   Stray | Jul 26, 2002 04:34pm | #2

   Last year I went throught the same process as you. Selecting a table saw is a tough decision, since it's such a central piece of equipment for any shop. I'm an amateur, not a production shop. I started looking at contractor saws from jet, delta, powermatic, etc.... I ended up getting a Grizzly cabinet saw (I can see the eyeballs rolling now...).

   While I didn't need a "cabinet" saw, the bottom of Grizzly's cabinet saw line was equal, or cheaper, in price to the contractor's saws ($775). I got a 3HP motor, nice cast wings, good beismeyer knockoff fence (Shop Fox). All in all, I think I have more saw for the money than the comprably priced contractors saws. This saw is hands down more accurate than the Delta contractor model I had been using for many years previous. You would need a 220 outlet for it.

   No, it's not the same as a Unisaw or other models twice the price, but I felt it was a great value for my needs. It is 400+ lbs, so if you need to move it around you should invest the $60 in the mobile base.

2. 
   Sancho | Jul 26, 2002 05:03pm | #3

   I have the Delta Platinum Contractors saw (I think they call it the "Limited Edition now") anyway I have the unifence with it. It comes with either the unifence or beismeyer fence your choice as a option. Its a good saw has done everything I have asked of it. Including ripping alot of hickory with ####regular systematic combo blade no problem. I would consider that or the jet contractors saw either one should do the trick for ya. Of course opinions are like belly buttons ya know. you might also want to check the archives.. This subj has been discussed extensivly a few previous times...

    Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"

3. 
   forestgirl | Jul 26, 2002 10:14pm | #4

   I have the Jet contractor's saw, and while it works fine, I like the stock fence on the Delta saw a lot better -- seems to lock in place better than the standard Jet fence.  Jet's customer service seems to have a much better reputation than Delta's -- I know I've had good CS from them.  You can always put on an aftermarket fence.

   The tip on the Grizzly cab saw is a good one too, there are many happy owners out there, and the cabinet saw design has some advantages in dust collection, blade alignment, etc.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

4. 
   MikeK50 | Jul 26, 2002 11:01pm | #5

   Gaf,

   Based on the projects you listed, you must be a serious amateur woodworker. 

   I prefer the cast iron extensions as they are much more stable and dimensionally true.

   I also like the Biesemeyer, Delta's Unifence and Powermatics Accufence.  They are all fine fences and they make woodworking much more enjoyable.  A good fence on a cheap table saw is better than a cheap fence on a good table saw. 

   The table saw you decide to buy depends on how much money you are willing to spend.  There are many good saws out there and the bottom line is "you get what you pay for."  If you stick with the Jet, Delta, Powermatic or other reputable brand, you should be fine.  Note that all of these company's contractors saws are made in Taiwan (although Delta may have one that is still U.S. made.)  There are several other companies that have their saws manufactured in Taiwan that I think are a couple of clicks under these as far as overall quality and precision goes.

   The way I look at it, a table saw should last a lifetime, so why not get the one that you will be happy with for that long?  I suggest getting the best that you can afford.  It's cheaper than having to upgrade later. 

   Depending on the money you want to spend, you might consider a cabinet style saw.  These saws are much heavier and have the trunnions mounted ot the cabinet instead of to the table top, as contractor saws are.  However, I would rather have a good contractor saw than a cheap cabinet saw.  Beware of too good to be true deals; "you get what you pay for." 

   Mike

5. 
   LarryPile | Jul 27, 2002 12:39am | #6

   I own a Jet contractor saw with cast iron wings and the better of two fences.  It is SWEET!

   I cannot imagine a better contractors saw.  I do agree about the mitre guage..but tend to think that about all of the factory mitre guages...get one that fits your needs for $100...give or take.

   I definitely  think that a good fence is critical...as is good, solid top support...read cast-iron wings.

   And if you can, run it on 220..it's made an incredible difference!

   Good luck.  If you have questions, e-mail me at [email protected]

   lp

6. 
   mike4244 | Jul 27, 2002 04:56am | #7

   Check out the Grizzly cabinet saw G1023s. This saw is 3hp 220 volts about 400 lbs of cast iron. Cast iron solid wings beveled front edges, very heavy and quite accurate miter gauge.The classic fence is a biesmier clone and works great.Dust collection is adequate.I use this saw 50 weeks a year almost every workday. Grizzly customer service is excellent.When I first got the saw I found the off switch was broken, emailed Grizzly and had new part 3 days later, no charge of course.

   I have used Delta unisaws and a left tilt Jet cabinet saw and can say that Grizzly compares very favorably with either saw. Powermatic is a better saw then any of the three saws mentioned, if price was no object buy Powermatic. The best saw for the buck is Grizzly in my opinion.

1. 
   GForcier | Jul 27, 2002 07:45am | #9

   Sounds like many of you have your favorites, but you're nonetheless reinforcing my sense that the cast wings and better fence will be worth the extra investment regardless which saw I wind up buying. But is there a way to quantify or demonstrate how much of a difference those two features can make?

   In any event, thanks all for sharing.

   gaf

1. 
   forestgirl | Jul 27, 2002 08:33am | #10

   Ask the people who want to sleep in the garage with the new tablesaw, LOL!  Seriously, though, a rock-steady, perfectly accurate fence would be worth it's weight in gold as far as I'm concerned.  I can only dream of being able to slide the fence down to 24-1/4" and not having to measure!  With regard to the cast iron wings, I have 'em but haven't switched them with my steel wings yet.  I have to believe that an absolutely solid, flat, heavy surface is just going to work better.

   Anything that reduces vibration is a big plus in any kind of machining effort.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   BG | Jul 27, 2002 03:41pm | #11

   Gaf,

   I guess you could say I'm in a similar situation as yourself...'need a good saw, not sure which one'.  The typical push back from those in the know is 'how are you going to use it' and  'you can't go wrong if you stay with the top choices'. It's good advice, sincerely communicated.

   You have been doing this woodworking thing long enough to know the TS is only a tiny fraction of the cost associated with this hobby.  I think it was Forrest Girl who suggested a Inca Miter...$100, and of course the saw blades at $100 a pop, Tenon Jig $100, dado blades $100, dust collection system $$, and that is only for starters.  Do you want to cut your own moldings?...shaper or on TS.  The point is how much 'total money' will be required to work safely and effectively.  I gotta believe many in here have at least $5-10 grand invested at a minimun. 

   The question I'd like to pose to those with so much more knowledge and experience is: If you had an empty work space right now, and $10 grand in your hand, how would you invest it?  Would you put a larger amount of money into a combination table saw, with slider? Would you buy better used stuff or go for new only?  what do you believe would be the ROI on your thoughts...faster, safer, less hassel, less space issues?

   thanks   

   Edited 7/27/2002 9:00:42 AM ET by BG

1. 
   MikeK50 | Aug 05, 2002 10:01pm | #13

   BG,

   You make an excellent point.  A dozen years ago, a friend of mine took me to my first woodworking show.  I bought a Shopsmith with many accessories for a total of about $3K.  I thought that I had spent the majority of the cash I was going to have to for my new woodworking hobby. 

   However, after buying several routers, sanders, a couple of dovetail jigs, a drill press, planer, etc., etc., etc., I have spent well over $20K.  I did sell my Shopsmith, so I got $2K back, though.  Now I’m shopping for a new band saw!

   The bottom line is that the table saw is usually the central tool and the woodworking shop and I do not believe in scrimping too much.  I like to get the best bang for the buck whenever I can.  I’ll buy a cheap bench grinder because there is no precision required.  When it comes to the machines that require precision like table saws, band saws, routers, etc., I always buy upper-end machines.

   In the end, I could have spent $15K instead of $20K, by buying lower priced tools, but I would not have missed $625 per year difference.  I certainly am glad I spent the money up front.  I will not have to upgrade later.

   Mike

1. 
   AlanTurner | Aug 05, 2002 11:05pm | #14

   With these sentiments I certainly agree. And esp. as to the table saw. I have a Unisaw, but am looking to move to an old Oliver.

2. 
   pritcharded | Aug 06, 2002 09:23am | #17

   Hi BG

   Here's some points based on my experience:

   It's possible to do a lot with even the most basic of machine tools - it's just that the further tools are from truly professional cabinetmaking grade, the greater the effort required in either tuning the tool and / or correcting inaccuracies in the finished product. However there are very few table saws which are incapable of being tuned to rip at least as well as even the most expert tradesman could achieve with a handsaw!

   My first table saw was a Swiss INCA. It wasn't very expensive, had a small alloy table and a primitive rise and fall/tilt mechanism and I did a lot of excellent work with it.

   I now have a heavy professional grade combination machine (see posts under "combination machines" on this list) and find it to be excellent. It's no more accurate than the INCA but its sliding table, size and mass make it more pleasurable to use especially when machining larger pieces.

   My INCA was bought new, my Cassidei secondhand - both were in first class mechanical condition. The secondhand market is worth looking at as some really good equipment is coming on to it as professional shops move to computer controlled equipment (especially if 3ph power is available to you).

   Setting up a shop is expensive but a budget of USD10k ought to get you away to a very good start. In Australia I was able to buy my combination machine for < 50% new price and I suspect in the US it would be similar.

   Stay away tools with limited guards - the cost of losing one's fingers is substantial. Personally I wouldn't use a table saw to rip without it being fitted with a proper riving knife.

   If you haven't already got it, buy FWW publication "Tage Frid: Teaches Woodworking - Book 1 Joinery". It was written quite a while ago but he has some good advice on tools to buy that in my opinion is still relevant. He has a basic table saw but a quality bandsaw (20" Rockwell). I have a 18" Minimax bandsaw and also find it to be a very versatile piece of equipment.

   Don't lose sight of the fact that handtools are also important and they need to be properly tuned and razor sharp. Good quality tools are no giveaway and you need a good system for sharpening them.

   Hope this is of some use and good luck with the purchasing.

   Ted

1. 
   BG | Aug 06, 2002 02:33pm | #18

   Ted,

   That is very helpful information.  I'm beginning to think that the woodworking tool industry is in the same place the automotive industry was in back in the early 70's...lots of focus on power and size...not so good on safe operation.  

   For the novice, lots of our projects are going to involve sheet goods.  Trying to balance a 4x8 sheet on a table top saw with its 5-6 inches of table top in front of the blade, and keep it up against the fense (which easily deflects with the weight) is lots of fun.  The situation improves with a cabinet saw because you have 11-13 inches in front of the blade, however, it's still precarious.  Also, I cant cut an 8' sheet down the middle with a hand saw...the cirucular saw works but still a stretch.

   So when I start to balance all the issues..safe performance, life cycle costs, add-ons to improve accuracy, it seems to me a better value might be had with a higher end machine..new or used.  Last Sunday I was driving up to Maine on the highway when a Merceedes sports coupe form the late 70's past me doing about 80 mph. It was rock solid steedy on the highway at that speed, it had the technology built in back then that we are only getting in our cars today.  New that Merceedes was in the low 20's...what a value!

   I'm working on the hand tools and spent many hours this weekend tuning up my two hand planes (#5, #7).  However, it is kinda hard to learning how to plane form a book ...but i am working on it.

   Thanks for your insites.

2. 
   pritcharded | Aug 07, 2002 03:06am | #19

   Hi BG

   Unless one has a full-on panel saw and lots of room to move, accurately cutting full sheets of MDF, etc, is awkward for most people. I find the easiest way to handle sheet product is to rough-cut them into shape with a portable circular saw (outside the shop because it makes such a mess!) and then dimension-cut them on my bench saw. My machine has both a sliding table and a scoring cutter and the whole operation becomes a breeze. If the panel size I'm looking for is too large to readily handle on my saw bench, I use a 3hp router to trim the component to final size (again outside) - not very hi tech but it works.

   Good luck with your project.

   Ted

7. 
   forestgirl | Jul 27, 2002 05:16am | #8

   gaf, I agree with Larry (I think it was Larry) about the stock miter guages in general, none of them are satisfactory.  The very first accessory I bought for my contractor's saw was the Incra 1000 miter guage ($89 at Grizzly on sale).  It fits the miter slot like hand-in-glove, is incredibly precise and easy to set.  Can't say enough good things about it.

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   LarryPile | Aug 06, 2002 05:17am | #15

   Is that as good as a "you're right"??  I like Forest Girl!

   lp

1. 
   tschmaling | Aug 06, 2002 07:03am | #16

   my first post..... i'll try not to botch it up  ;)

   i'm not sure how this will fly with the fine folks at fine woodworking, but i thought i'd suggest an article you may or may not have seen in the current issue of "american woodworker". this month is their tablesaw special, and there's one article in particular that goes over the details of today's machines. they discuss (and give nice illustrations about) all of the different styles of saws out there today from the good 'ol contracter to the "hybrid" and cabinet saws. i found it to be very interesting, and may help you decide where you'll want to go.

   good luck!

   tony

8. 
   sydspal | Aug 04, 2002 08:05pm | #12

   The saws mentioned are all good for the purposes you will need; and then some.  I did catch a comment in the thread I thaught all would like to know regarding the way the motors/ trunnions are mounted.  I've been reading regularly on the mfg. of the saws as I'm chomping at the bit for better myself.  The Jet, Dewalt, and Delta (if I recall correct) are hybrid saws. This means the motor is connected to the table top; this imparts some vibration to the surface that most find acceptable.  The Powermatic is different which is why it is typically held in higher regard than the prior mentioned units.  The heavy cast trunnions are mounted to the cabinet; this is reported to cause less vibration.  Powermatic would be sitting in my garage right now if I didn't have to feed the wife, kid, and dog!

9. 
   cgreen | Aug 08, 2002 06:24am | #20

   First any saw that costs over 500 bucks is pretty good. As a matter of fact you can get a very accurate cut on a 120 dollar portable  saw with a good blade (I like Forester) and a straight stick of lumber clamped to the table. The real question you need to ask yourself is how hard do I want to work and how much scrap do I want to throw in the fire. If you really want the best saw, forget Grizzly Jet and Delta, go for the Laguna saw. Well isn't that the most ridiculous thing you have ever heard. Ask yourself what you are going to use the saw for. Don't spend ridiculous amounts of money for a saw that you might rip 1 board for a shelve once ever 3 years. The bottom line is the more money you spend on a saw the more you will like it. Even if it is a Grizzly. I have a Jet contractors saw with those dreaded stamped steel extension wings. I measure most of my work with micrometers and I can tell you that my saw will cut everything I have thrown at it, and with accuracy. The best advice I, or anyone else can give you is buy the best saw that you can afford and you will be HAPPY. 

1. 
   GForcier | Aug 08, 2002 06:36am | #21

   CGreen:

   Thanks. That's a nice, thoughtful and sensible bit of advice. Makes me feel better after reading the complaint elsewhere about a warped Grizzly table top.

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 08, 2002 07:52am | #22

   Stretching the definition of "warped" I'd say, LOL.

   PS:  Not to mention, Jet and Delta have shipped an occasional warped table too.   

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

   Edited 8/8/2002 12:55:23 AM ET by forest_girl

10. 
    noone50 | Aug 08, 2002 08:57am | #23

    So you've lost your saw and now you want to replace it. 600-800 puts you in the contractor saw range. In that price range, you are buying a good saw. After market fences and mitre gauges will improve most saws. Not many off the shelf saws can compare options like that.. The biggest concern today is customer service when you need it. Fortunately, you can test that ahead of time.

    You mentioned cast iron wings. The the biggest advantages of a full on cabinet saw are weight, horse power, motor location and belt drive system. You can't expect to achieve all of that by just adding on a set of cast iron wings. They will give you more weight and help to reduce some of the vibration but a 50.00 link belt will do a lot more for about the same or less. As for horsepower, your stuck with 1 1/2 or 2 hp hanging off the back of the saw.

    If you are like most of us tool junkies, at some point you're going to buy that 52' Beismeyer fence and once you have that and the support stand you'll start looking at a right side mounted router table and of course, the Incra Ultra Jig... well there goes that right cast wing.

    Just a couple of things to ponder. Best of luck with your choice. No doubt wichever one you choose it will be the best in any tavern argument.

1. 
   GForcier | Aug 09, 2002 02:26am | #24

   No one:

   thanks for your thoughts.

   Talked to a guy today who says he's got a Grizzly 1022Pro, is very pleased with it, ALTHOUGH he spent about 3 months going back and forth with Griz and his electrician trying to figure out why a 2 horse motor on a 20-amp circuit running 220 would pop circuit breakers. He says they eventually worked around the issue with a 30-amp circuit. Don't understand that. The electrical issues aside, however, he loves the saw's performance. Says he's used Craftsman table saw before and has friends who own Delta's who say it looks and works just fine.

   gaf