I was planning on purchasing a 3hp cabinet saw this month to upgrade my table saw (I am currently using a small table top saw). Unfortunately, I discovered that it will be nearly impossible to run a 220 line into my garage/shop so my choices are now limited. I don’t know anything about wiring, so I have no idea if I can buy a 220 machine and SAFELY rewire it for 110 or if I am simply better off to stick with a 110 machine. I figure in another ten years I’ll be in a position to both upgrade my shop and saw, so this doesn’t need to be a permanent purchase, but I do want a high quality saw that will work for me. (Currently I am a hobby woodworker, build furniture, some cabinetry, but not doing this full time).
So I’ve decided to look for a good saw that I can use in a shop without 220 wiring for less than $1100. I’ve looked at the hybrid saws from both Delta and Grizzly, and the Jet Supersaw, but I’m not sure how any of these perform. If you were in my situation, what would you buy?
Replies
I've had a Super Saw for about 3 years and am generally happy with it. I have the 30" rails, which are all I need and I replaced the miter gague with Incras' 1000se. I left it on 120 even though I have 240 avalibale. With a thin kerf blade it hasn't bogged down cutting some 2 1/2 inch brazilan cherry but I feed it slowly. I think they solved a problen with the blade raising belt ( it's a cogged belt like on a car) which broke on mine after 2 weeks and took 3 months to replace. Haven't read any complaints about this recently.
I have to ask: what is the problem with 220 thats stopping you from running a line. There is always a solution ...
Honestly, I don't think I would ever go back to 110. The saws just don't have the guts at that voltage and the line droop kills you.
My box is in my basement on the opposite side of the house from the garage. Fishing wires, cutting holes, etc. would end up costing too much. Also, some of the materials the electrician would have to fish through would be extremely difficult to repair. Considering I'm only planning on being in this house for another three years, I'd rather get something good that works now on 110 and then upgrade in maybe seven or ten years when I have a shop with 220 power.
Jay: You could use an extension cord as long as it is not permanently attached to the house. Not pretty but safe if done right. Then you could get whatever saw you want and the cord could be dismantled and used later in your new shop as line cords for your machines. I have a 75' 12/4 cord that runs my shop, feed off a two pole 20amp breaker, 3 pole 4 wire twist-lock. On the other end are a single 20 amp straight blade 220v and a duplex 120v receptacles in a deep four square box. Works fine. DukeKenneth Duke Masters
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Fair enough, but, as mentioned above, a 200 volt extension cord (I'd go with a 12 guage one) is one solution. You can easily 'weatherise' it too.
Alternatively, you can bury a wire around the house (i.e. close to the foundation) to get close to the box (code would dictate depth and/or the need for conduit). I've done this myself its not as hard as you would think, unless it turns out you have to dig real deep.
If this is possible, you can, say, run 220 @ 20 amps to the shed and use a small 'pony panel' to provide the 15 amps for the saw and a few other circuits.
In my experience, 120 volt table saws are ok for light work like short cuts in plywood, cross cutting softwood, etc.. Once you start ripping, cutting melamine, dealing with serious hardwood, dadoing, and so on, you run into trouble.
The thing is a 120 volt saw draws a lot of current (twice of a 220). Its easy to overload the breaker (back to the breaker panel), and, in particular, the thermal protection on the saw motor. I fought with my 120 volt table saw for years before I finally saw the light.
Of course, if you are doing light work, or occasional work, a 120 volt machine will cut wood.
The real question is how many amps is the 120 volt circuit(s) wired and fused for. Also, what else is on those circuits?
I've got the Craftsman 22124 and am very happy with it. It has cabinet mounted trunnions that are easy to align, it's nearly as stable as a cabinet saw @ 425#, has a Biesemeyer fence, a Leitz blade, and it'll run on 110v. It has quite a bit in common with the Delta 36-717 but with a few added benefits.
I'd also suggest taking a good look at the GI 50-220 CM1. It has the lowest amp draw of all the hybrids so should run better on 110v.
http://www.epinions.com/content_184778395268
Edited 2/8/2006 9:47 am ET by scotty
The blade raising mechanism on my supersaw also failed pretty quickly. I replaced it with the new and improved belt a year ago. Recently, the belt slipped off and I had to put it back on. The new belt is frayed and fuzzy. I've ordered two new belts and will keep them for when this belt fails, and when the next one fails.
The fix isn't really all that good. I'd advise potential buyers to ask users of the dewalt about their experience. My friends haven't had a problem with their dewalts, but the sample is small.
It's still too early to judge the craftsman and the delta.
Other than the blade-raising belt, the saw works very well using the thin kerf 10" forest blade. When I first used the sliding table, it was like being 14 and figuring out what the older boys were so interested in. I'll never own a table saw without a sliding table - all the cabinet saw manufacturers should listen that remark and boot up their autocad!
I had the same problem for the same reasons. Generally speaking 3 Hp saws are not rewired for 110 which make sense because the amp requirement would be so large. Your current 110 circuit could not handle the requirement even if it were possible. The lower HP saw are able to be rewired but as others have pointed out this would still result in a significant 110 requirement. The saw might run on a 15 amp 110 circuit but it wouldn't be able to start because the startup load would trip the circuit breaker.
I know because my garage/shop only has 15 amp service and my saw(General International 185) and jointer(Delta DJ20) can't startup on any of these circuits. I have a 20 Amp circuit running to outside on my deck next to the garage and I use a heavy duty extension when I need to power these two items. I am in the process of deciding if I am going to move and in that case I would build an attached shop or if I stay I will add a shop extension to my current location. My circuit breaker/garage location is as you described with everything being finished between the two. I had an opportunity to talk to the electrician who did the original wiring when the house was built. Based on my discussion with him I think you should find a good electrician and have him look at your situation. You may be pleasantly surprised at what they are able to do.
I agree with DukeOne. I have a 220 arc welder (30 years) that I never knew where I would need it. Bought the heavy black wiring (extension cord type) and have a 30 ft cord. Gets me about anywhere I need to go.
Alan - planesaw
Wow. Lots of good advice here. Unfortunately, I'm in a funny situation. I live in a condo/townhouse situation with attached neighbors, so running a line outside the house and burying the line wouldn't be an option because I'd have to run the line all the way around the entire unit, and it would entail tearing up a certain amount of concrete (walkways, etc). So that option isn't feasible.
I had an electrician come and check out the situation. His advice was that my cheapest option would be to run a gas line to the kitchen, buy a gas range, and use the 220 line in my kitchen for the garage. However, the wife doesn't want to give up her glass top electric range (brand new), so that option was nixed.
I'm not sure how many amps the circuit in the shop will hold, but I've run my current saw (11 amps) and my 6-inch jointer simultaneously and never had the circuit trip.
I would LOVE to find a feasible option to go with a 3hp cabinet saw, but I think I have to be financially realistic, and knowing that we're going to be moving in a few years (and the fact that I'm a starving college student right now), I can't justify pumping money into jerry-rigging something if I can find a "decent" (not necessarily great) option that would allow me to simply plug something into my garage now. It kills me to say it, but I'm just not at the point in my life yet to be able to invest in a "dream shop" or even "dream tools".
I checked out the Delta Hybrid saw at a local distributor yesterday. It looked pretty good, but it has had dismal customer reviews on Amazon. I may go with the Grizzly and spend the leftovers on a decent planer.
Wow! You do have a problem. Looks like you are stuck with 110.
I had a townhouse as a first house too. Had to carry my lawnmower through the living room because one neighbour refused to let me cross his 20x20 patch of grass.
Jay, what size breaker is on that 110 circuit you'd be using? The Grizzly hybrid saw states 20 amps for its motor when wired to 110. You'll need some wiggle room above that for start-up and times when you're pushing the saw.
Don't let the naysayers (about 110) get you down. There's plenty of good work being done on 1.5HP 110V contractors saws. A high quality blade and link-belt go a long ways to getting the most out of one.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
At work, trim carp, we use the Dewault portable. It's okay and will run fine on way too much extension cord...it's not unusual to have the saw at the end of 200 feet alongside a slide miter, skilsaw, beltsander, planer and pencil sharpener. We run into trips when everyone is sawing at once. The Dewault will handle most hardwoods, domestics yes and some tropicals. Feed rate and using the splitter help. What goes the most way is a fresh sharp, thin-kerf RIPPING blade. It is a compromise but it is very portable which may help down the road, plus the money saved will go farther once you know what you can install in a proper shop. I wish I had a proper shop. 'Course you could do what I'm doing now, draw up plans and build your own tablesaw. Just gotta figure a good way to tilt that damn arbor...
"I checked out the Delta Hybrid saw at a local distributor yesterday. It looked pretty good, but it has had dismal customer reviews on Amazon. I may go with the Grizzly and spend the leftovers on a decent planer."
I trust Amazon reviews less than most. There's virtually no requirements to buy and very little prescreening. It makes it very easy for someone with an axe to grind to write a scathing review...and I've read several that just sounded fishy. Hopefully most are on the up and up. The Delta has much in common with the Craftsman and it seems odd that the Delta would get ripped while the Craftsman gets raves. Take those reviews lightly...I wouln't let them sway my decision much unless there was a common theme from a significant number of reviewers.
Edited 2/9/2006 11:24 am ET by scotty
Jay,
I bought a Delta and was really disappointed.. I'd previously had a cheap ($80.00 including a blade) table top which actually outlasted the Delta! I gave the Delta away (for a cheapskate like me you have to believe I was really pizzed at it) and bought Grizzly
I'm really happy with all the Grizzley stuff I've bought!
Thanks for the responses. I'm going to have an electrician out tomorrow morning to see if the circuit will take the Grizzly or I'll have to go with a lower amp model like the Delta or the Craftsman. I like the cabinet simply for purposes of dust collection. I don't have a dedicated DC system, so anything that will help minimize dust is great.
I think I'm hoping for the Grizzly saw, but if the wiring won't support it, I haven't ruled out the Delta. The Craftsman has had really good buzz, but every other Craftsman power tool I've used/bought in the past three or four years has been disappointing. I hate to drop $900+ on a saw that isn't going to be worth more than the Biesemeyer fence that comes with it.
If you are moving up from a benchtop saw, I would look at a contractor saw. A delta will set you back around $550 to $650. They are switchable 110/220. I have run mine on both, but currently use 220. It ran just fine on 110. They are precise enough for good work, and cheap enough you can sell it when/if you move for a dedicated 220 cab saw. The majority of the precision is in the fence, so get a good one (the T2 that comes with the cheaper deltas is pretty darn good, the Bessie is great). I have not run into power problems with mine, but I rarely rip anything more than 4/4 or 5/4. Mine will pass the nickel test (and the dime test for that matter) just like the cabinet saws will.
Someday, I would like to have a delta, general, or powermatic cabinet saw, but it would be out of desire, not out of a true need for more performance.
The craftsman hybrid has gotten a lot of good talk here, and if you belong to the craftsman club and hit the sales right it has been known to be gotten for under $700.
I once found that the sales people at sears have access to what will be going on sale during the upcoming 4-6 months and you can see if something you want from them will come up and if you can hold off - get a good deal. Also look for a sears repair center - they also serve as an outlet for blemished equipment. I bought a benchtop belt/disk sander that retails for $120 for $70 - only problem was the box was a bit crushed and torn in one corner - did not get thru the styrofoam and the item itself was in perfect condition. I also see drill presses, compressors and more there all the time with some scratches and so reduced by a good 25% off normal.1 - measure the board twice, 2 - cut it once, 3 - measure the space where it is supposed to go 4 - get a new board and go back to step 1
If you have the funds to buy the saw then you should be able to find someone to wire up a sub panel in the garage. It could be done for as little as $500. If you do the digging (if necessary) that will also lower the cost. Get some electricians out there to look at the work and ask about their different solutions. After you talk to two or three you will have a pretty good idea who is BSing and who can help you.
Mike
Obviously this is a hack, but has worked very well for me for about 5 years.. Go buy a dryer plugcable, a piece of 10/3 (try the local electrical contractor for salvage stuff) and an outlet (or even the electrical panel for your new shop). Mount the panelbox where you want to, run the extension cable over to the dryer plug. Simply swap the plugs as need be... AND you can still get a hot supper after a hard day in the shop..... When you do build, pretty much everything is reuseable ..
I have the DeWalt 'almost-cabinet' Woodworkers saw, and like it very much. I have 220 nearby, but haven't gotten around to changing over from 110 because the saw works just fine as it is. The saw is beefy, dead-on accurate, and has a good fence. Add me to the list of satisfied DeWalt owners.
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