Replies

1. 
   brucet9 | Jun 13, 2009 05:33am | #1

   Whatever that is, it's not pure mineral spirits. Take it back, it's contaminated with something and it will ruin your varnish.

   Maybe someone cleaned paint brushes with it and returned it to the store?

   By the way, unless you need to extend the dry time of your varnish, you might better use VM&P naphtha or better yet xylene, both of which dry much faster than MS.

   BruceT

   
   

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   Edited 6/12/2009 10:36 pm by brucet9

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 13, 2009 05:46am | #2

   I agree that I wouldn't use this for thinning varnish.  What brand is it?, What's the exact name?  Who sold it?  There may be some info on the MSDS that tells us whether this is just a contaminated product or a supposed green variant. 

1. 
   mrbird90 | Jun 13, 2009 06:27am | #3

   It was purchased from Home Depot or Menards and it is a poplar brand name,"Klean Strip" On the container in fine print it said it is a non-flammable mineral spirits and is milder on the skin, less vapors, and earth friendly. The big lettering said Mineral Spirits. In order to make it non-flammable they must be adding some water missible chemical to cut down on vapors. On the container it said it is for thinning paints and varnishes and other solvent based coatings. It cleaned my paint  brushes real well, better than paint thinner. Interesting, the MSDS sheet says it is flammable.

   Edited 6/12/2009 11:46 pm ET by mrbird90

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 13, 2009 04:19pm | #5

   I've looked at the MSDS, which in the Klean Strip database is called KS Pro Paint Thinner, and does specify that it is a "opaque, milky white, then emulsion..." [emphasis added].  It Also indicates that the materials can separate after long storage with the hazardous material on top and that should be shaken before use. 

   Most interestingly, the composition indicates that only 30-40% of the total is the hazardous material "hydrotreated light distillate (petroleum) CAS 64742-47-8. 

   I presume from this that what we have here is low odor mineral spirits that's what the CAS number is for, that is emulsified in what I assume is water.  Kleanstrip appears to market this under several namtes including Safer Paint Thinner.  I really don't understand this as a thinner, though as a brush cleaning solvent it might make sense.    I'd want to see a lot of tests, both short and long term, before I used this as a thinner in varnish on a real project. 

   Edited 6/13/2009 9:22 am ET by SteveSchoene

1. 
   mrbird90 | Jun 13, 2009 05:42pm | #8

   I agree whole hartedly, I went an got a new gallon of old mineral spirits, altough it is getting hard to find around here. Also noticed they have a green paint thinner which is not mineral spirits and it is white and milky but contains something that sounds like moth ball material diflordi ---------l and opening the can it smells just like moth balls. Again it said it was for paints, varnishes etc. I'll stay away from this one too.

2. 
   brucet9 | Jun 16, 2009 02:17am | #15

   The MSDS data suggest that it is about a 2:1 blend of water and mineral spirits.Specific gravity is consistent with a 33% ±2% blend of mineral spirits and water.Flash point >200°F is consistent with such a blend, until such time as enough water boils off (MS boils at 300+°F) that the 100°F flash point of MS prevails.solubility in water of 65% suggests that the hydrocarbon portion is 35%.BruceT

3. 
   saschafer | Jun 13, 2009 06:36am | #4

   According to the web site, it works with varnishes, so it's probably worth a try (on a test piece, of course).

   -Steve

4. 
   boilerbay | Jun 13, 2009 04:21pm | #6

   They do make this
   http://www.wmbarr.com/product.aspx?catid=21&prodid=147

   Did you call them?
   Probably mis manufactured? Wrong cans went down the line -- happens a lot at chemical companies. Years ago a teat cleaner for dairy cows was mis-packaged with acid pipe cleaner. $20 million in dairy cows died and huge law suits in 3 states.

   Any chance you have dyslexic hands like I do? (look at one can and grab another?)

   BB

   
   

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   Edited 6/13/2009 9:27 am by boilerbay

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 13, 2009 05:42pm | #7

   They make that and several other products with somewhat different names, with what appear to be similar MSDS, all with the reference number 1691.3x.  That is probably what he has, and with the language he quoted, it is likely to be the same stuff.  It may be white, but color me dubious, as a thinner for varnish.

5. 
   dkellernc | Jun 13, 2009 05:54pm | #9

   One antectdotal observation about this - I completed a project last winter that the customer insisted be finished with polyurethane (I hate poly - I avoid it unless I'm finishing a gym floor).

   I needed to thin the polyurethane a bit to cut down on the brush marks, and my first attempt was with about 20% Odorless Mineral Spirits.  The brand of poly was minwax high gloss.  Upon initial dilution, all seemed well.  I capped the container and came back the next day for a second coat, and a semi-transparent gel had formed on the bottom - shaking did not do anything but break the gel up into smaller particles that floated around the container.

   Needless to say, I didn't use this diluted mixture on the project, but I had some "regular" mineral spirits in the shop, so I tried that - same poly, same 80% poly, 20% solvent ratio.  That mixture is still just as clear and homogenous as the day it was mixed up.

   The point here is that my guess is the low-boiling volatiles in these mixtures are important for solubilization of components of varnish.  The low-boiling volatiles, of course, are responsible for the smell and VOCs of mineral spirits.

1. 
   Shoemaker1 | Jun 14, 2009 12:49am | #10

   Hey that happened to me to. Minwax poly turned into a lump. I thought it was some kind of reaction to oxygen exposure.
   Good quality solvents are getting hard to find. This "green" movement could leave some things alone. The quanity used buy the hobbyest, in the big scheme is not that large. I use more gas when I have to drive to town, to get more poly after it lumped up.
   Finding denatured alcohol is a waste of time. and i'm not to use Everclear for shellacing!!

1. 
   dkellernc | Jun 14, 2009 12:57am | #11

   Ha!  Well - that depends on who's gettin' "shellacked".

   The funny thing about this is that the odorless mineral spirits was definitely a high-quality solvent - good brand, recent stock, and definitely not "green" in the environmental sense. 

   But I think the different fractionation to remove the stinky volatiles at the refinery results in a decreased solubility of some of the components of the Minwax poly, so it gelled overnight.  I went back to the "old standard" paint-thinner grade of mineral spirits, and no problem.  Lesson learned - sometimes it's just better to put up with the solvent fumes.

1. 
   Shoemaker1 | Jun 14, 2009 01:42am | #12

   Ahh solvent fumes. as a basicly retired shoemaker we used a lot of VOC's.
   Wondered why old the old guys drank, to keep the buzz up. both CNS depressants!!!I made a down draft table for using contact cement. I gave a demo at a conferance and I should have went in to making down draft tables but to dumb to realize. I have made a few for other shoe repair shops.
   The new cements used on all the different sole products vinyl, poly some dame thing, and who knows what? you end up using some nastey solvents. If you don't get good ventilation you are cooking the brain and liver. the new scarey thing is instant glues and promoters, toxic as old get out. Dying shoes is almost extinct.My old Dutch mentor made cement by cutting up plantation crepe rubber and disolve in naptha with benzene, pre WW11 during in depression Holland.Now time to get schellacing.
   BB

2. 
   brucet9 | Jun 16, 2009 02:39am | #16

   "...my guess is the low-boiling volatiles in these mixtures are important for solubilization of components of varnish. The low-boiling volatiles, of course, are responsible for the smell and VOCs of mineral spirits."High or low boiling point has little to do with solvency or odor. There are some very high boilers with strong solvency properties and some very low boilers with poor solvency properties. There are also high boilers with strong odor and low boilers with almost no odor (N-hexane, for instance).There is, however, a correlation between smellyness and strong solvency. Aromatics and naphthenes are smelly and they are strong solvents while aliphatics are mild smelling and weak, so the less odor in a hydrocarbon solvent, the less solvency.The problem with odorless mineral spirits is that it is composed entirely of aliphatic hydrocarbons and those compounds have the lowest solvency (measured as KB value) for resins; around 29 or 30. Regular (smelly) mineral spirits has as much as 8% aromatic content and usually a pretty good amount of naphthenes or cycloparaffins which can boost its KB value to 36 or more. For comparison, Xylene has a KB value of 97 and toluene about 105, yet they are both far lower boilers than mineral spirits.BruceT

   Edited 6/15/2009 7:48 pm by brucet9

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 16, 2009 05:02am | #17

   Your descriptions are a much more informed statement of my guesses based on the MSDS.  What I just don't understand is what chemistry would allow this stuff to be an appropriate thinner for oil based paints and varnishes as the manufacturers literature says.  I can add water to varnish as long as it contains emulsified packets of low odor mineral spirits???? 

   Unless there is some real data to support that idea I would not do it, and frankly it would have to be really strong experimental data preferably in a peer reviewed journal.  So until then, I recommend not using this stuff.   

1. 
   brucet9 | Jun 16, 2009 06:07am | #18

   I agree. I wouldn't use the stuff either.It may be that the emulsion can work as a diluent in small quantities, because the mineral spirits would normally dry slower than water, but on a humid day? Certainly using that stuff would lower the effective solvency of the system and any left-over varnish or paint would likely not be stable for long.BruceT

2. 
   dkellernc | Jun 16, 2009 05:24pm | #19

   "High or low boiling point has little to do with solvency or odor. There are some very high boilers with strong solvency properties and some very low boilers with poor solvency properties. There are also high boilers with strong odor and low boilers with almost no odor (N-hexane, for instance).

   There is, however, a correlation between smellyness and strong solvency. Aromatics and naphthenes are smelly and they are strong solvents while aliphatics are mild smelling and weak, so the less odor in a hydrocarbon solvent, the less solvency."

   I didn't actually mean that there was a correlation with the vapor pressure of a compound and its "smelliness" - just that the compounds in "ordinary mineral spirits" that are responsible for its odor tend to be low vapor pressure compounds that are stripped out by the "purification" process. 

   Of course, the the properties of a specific compound that make it a good solvent depends on what one is trying to solvate - linear aliphatic hydrocarbons are very good solvents for most highly hydrophobic, non-polar, non-protic compounds, while the highly polar, highly branched poly-nuclear hydrocarbons make excellent solvents for polar aprotic compounds.

   Regardless, I'm suspicious of the need for "green" mineral spirits.  It's not like this stuff is used in massive quantities - unlike gasoline.  Maybe it's just a perception that the manufacturers can make more money if they can put "environmentally friendly" on anything!

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jun 16, 2009 07:15pm | #20

   Especially if they can charge mineral spirit, or almost mineral spirit, prices for the water component of the product.

2. 
   brucet9 | Jun 16, 2009 08:26pm | #21

   "I'm suspicious of the need for "green" mineral spirits. It's not like this stuff is used in massive quantities - unlike gasoline."Amen, brother. The AQMD regulated solvents because they are an easy target, not because they were the major contributor to air pollution."just that the compounds in "ordinary mineral spirits" that are responsible for its odor tend to be low vapor pressure compounds that are stripped out by the "purification" process."Apparently I did a poor job of clarifying this point before. Odor is not at all tied to vapor pressure or boiling point (high boiling point = low vapor pressure). The odor comes from the type of molecules, not the size, so refineries can't purify smelly mineral spirits to make it low odor even if they remove all the aromatics. You have to start with low odor aliphatic feedstock to get low odor mineral spirits. When I was in the business, way back when, the lowest odor stocks came from Texas and the Gulf, the smelliest solvents were processed in west coast refineries from California and foreign crude stocks.BruceT

1. 
   saschafer | Jun 16, 2009 08:57pm | #22

   "Odor is not at all tied to vapor pressure..."

   That reasonably true for ordinary hydrocarbons, but not always: Compounds with extremely low vapor pressure have no odor, simply because not enough molecules ever make it to your nose. High-vacuum pump oils, for example, with vapor pressures around 10-7 mmHg at room temperature, have no odor.

   -Steve

    

2. 
   brucet9 | Jun 16, 2009 10:02pm | #23

   That makes sense perhaps, but then why can you smell new carpet, cedar lumber, roofing felt, and a host of other solid materials where vapor pressure is not one of the measurable properties? I think most oils are low odor just because their molecules have intrinsically low odor. BruceT

3. 
   saschafer | Jun 16, 2009 11:58pm | #24

   Vapor pressure certainly is one of the measurable properties of those materials. Or, more accurately, it is a measurable property of one or more components of those materials. If you can smell it, it is volatile and has a vapor pressure. Your nose is exquisitely sensitive to very tiny concentrations of certain compounds, and the vapor pressures are much smaller than those of volatile liquids (by factors of a thousand, a million, or more), but still measurable. For example, the minimum detectable (to human noses) vapor pressure of hydrogen sulfide, one of the smellier substances, is around 10-5 mmHg. The vapor pressure of asphalt (as in roofing felt) at room temperature is around 10-3 mmHg.

   -Steve

    

4. 
   dkellernc | Jun 17, 2009 07:06pm | #25

   "Apparently I did a poor job of clarifying this point before. Odor is not at all tied to vapor pressure or boiling point (high boiling point = low vapor pressure). The odor comes from the type of molecules, not the size, so refineries can't purify smelly mineral spirits to make it low odor even if they remove all the aromatics. You have to start with low odor aliphatic feedstock to get low odor mineral spirits. When I was in the business, way back when, the lowest odor stocks came from Texas and the Gulf, the smelliest solvents were processed in west coast refineries from California and foreign crude stocks."

   Actually, what I meant was what's detailed by some of the other posters - in order for a compound to be odiferous, it has to have a combination of properties, one of which is volatility.  The other (and a critical one) is that it have biological reactivity - in other words, it has to more or less "fit" the odor receptors on the surface of the mucous membranes of the nasal cavity and sinuses.  You're quite correct that some highly volatile molecules have very little odor - typically saturated, straight chain alkanes, and some molecules with considerably less volatility have a very strong odor - typically PNAs that contain sulfur, or in some cases, nitrogen.

   While true that refining processes based solely on vapor pressure aren't specifically selective for PNAs and other odiferous compounds, most solvents that I'm aware of go through multiple processes that aren't just boiling-point fractionation. 

   Of course, when all is said and done, I question the need for any of this - the objectionable odor from solvents for paint is pretty low on the list of environmental hazards.

6. 
   JohnWW | Jun 14, 2009 11:28pm | #13

   I ran into a can of something similar in the shop I'm working in for a few weeks, (I'm helping Circus Smirkus here in Vermont to get ready for their summer tour).

   It was labeled as an environmentally safe mineral spirits, with a lot of uncommon chemicals in it. I was immediately suspicious of it when I found that it wouldn't remove some fresh oil paint from my hands, it was like trying to clean with plain water, completely useless. A can of old fashioned mineral spirits I found in the back of the cabinet removed the paint instantly. I'd be really careful using this stuff on a paying job, it doesn't seem to combine with oil based finishes at all.

   John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007

1. 
   mrbird90 | Jun 14, 2009 11:35pm | #14

   The sad part,  here in my area it is very difficult to find the old fashioned mineral spirits, even Drug Mart only has the earth friendly version.