I recently used white oak for custom cabinet and millwork in a home that had the same for the flooring and other pieces of furniture. I finished the work with a CAB acrylic lacquer (satin). Both pieces are noticeable “grey” compared to the existing and this is not due to the lacquer–the raw wood is similar, too. The customer is a bit concerned due to the mismatch against the surroundings. I have built things out of white oak before and revisited a kitchen table that’s 15 years old. It is not anywhere near the color of these recent pieces I’ve built. It very closely matches that of my customer’s existing. The cabinet is rift-sawn veneer plywood, the millwork is solid lumber.
Is the difference an aging thing where the new pieces might lighten, yellow and loose their “greyness”? Or, is there a difference in wood source or sub-species? I doubt there’s anything to do about it now short of spraying on a tinted coat which would only add some yellow but not rid the wood of the greyness. This grey tone is very subtle. I would say the fact is more that the color is not yellow-white but slightly greyish-brown.
This won’t be the last piece I build for this client so, I’m forewarned to match the wood more closely. Any comments going forward would be welcome.
Replies
Pascanale—
Allow me to jump in here with my own experience with white oak, a lovely wood that I use quite often, especially when quartersawn.
I don't think there's much color differences between different cuts of white oak in terms of yellow versus grey. Instead, I suspect the water-based finish you're using is the culprit. Oil-based finishes impart a more yellow glow to wood, particularly with white oak. Water-borne finishes move towards the blue specturm, which is probably the grey color you're seeing.
Before doing anything for the house, I would first do a finish sample. Here's what I think will work: Apply some kind of oil-based penetrating finish to the wood first, such as boiled linseed oil or Waterlox, a long-oil wiping varnish. Let this dry, and then topcoat with whatever you like, such as your acrylic lacquer. The difference in color should be very noticable from straight acrylic.
We do this routinely in my shop to bring out the color of many types of wood, and not just white oak. For example, black walnut looks very 'dull' and grey—with a blue cast—if sprayed with nitrocellulose lacquer alone. Adding the oil as a first coat, and then lacquering, gives a warmer tone to the wood and deepens the wood's natural reflective properties. You get the best of both worlds: A deep, good-looking reflective penetrating finish with the harder wear resistance of a film finish.
As I said, try it on a sample board first. Once you and the customer like what you see, go for the real thing.
Best o' luck,
Andy Rae
Edited 4/24/2007 9:21 am ET by woodrae
Hi Andy,
White oak is fun to work with.
I don't think Pascanale used water based finish though. CAB, I'm assuming was a solvent based. As you know it is very water white.
Another way to augment the color before an oil is to give it a wash with a medium yellow to golden brown dye depending on the look required. They will quickly even out a grayish cast. The dye can be water or alcohol based. They both dry quickly and will definitely give the oiled look a deeper dimension. Like you I always advocate samples first. It's time very well spent.
We're not that far apart geographically so let me run this by you. I was talking with a supplier in New York yesterday and they mentioned there seems to have been a trend in the last couple of months on liming wood. Since white oak lends itself extremely well to this technique, I was wondering if you've heard any rumblings about it.
Peter
Yo, Peter—I'm in western North Carolina; where'r you? You coming by the shop today for lunch?Hey: I saw your video (and your latest FW article) on liming: Very nice! I've never done that with wax, but have plenty of hours using glazes, etc. It's definitely a specialty finish, and one that customers need coaxing on—and plenty of finish samples—before they commit.As for the latest trends, I honestly haven't seen nor heard anything untoward. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if it's coming back. There was a surge about 20 years ago (perhaps George Frank's books had something to do with it) so were due for another round. God knows that red oak ain't out of favor.Personally, I like specialty finishes, even though I tend to do all my woodworking these days in clear finishes, particularly oils. I say, bring it on! The wilder the color, pattern and texture, the better.Back on topic: Pascanale mentioned acrylic for his finish, which had me thinking he was in the waterborne category. Yes: Either way, this stuff is shiny white, and won't warm the wood like a nitrocellulose lacquer. Your advice about dye washes is good, but I would be concerned about the longer term effects that a dye may have, such as keeping the color of the wood within that tone while the rest of the house ages (typically, with white oak) a darker color. If the dye is very diluted, I suppose it may not be an issue. Thoughts?—Andy
Woodrae,
I wish I kwew how to reply to everyone at once since I need to clarify one misunderstanding--Sherwin Williams CAB acrylic lacquer is NOT water-borne but the typical lacquer vehicle like nitrocellulose. I use both but the CAB is pure white/clear like water-borne finishes. Yes, nitrocellulose does add some golden hue, which I like for certain situations but not appropriate here. In this situation the wood's color was greyish before the finish. Because of the CAB finish, it neither got worse or better.
So, the question simply put is...why was this last batch of white oak grey? Red oak is goldish, and white a pale yellow-white if I may be so stereotypical and generalize.
Regards,
Pascanale
Pascanale—If your white oak is truly grey colored, then the answer is simple: It's wood—in all in glorious varieties! But again, in my experience the stuff is typically uniform in terms of color tone (but not, like any wood, in grain pattern; dark/light color, etc.). Let me ask: Is the wood you're using kiln dried? Air-dried white oak can have a different tonal value.Assuming you're working with kiln-dried wood, I think Peter's suggestion might be the ticket: Replicate the color with dyes. However, I would still try my approach of adding an oil coat underneath the finish to see what you get. One of these tactics may work for you.Why don't you make some samples, and let us know how it goes?—Andy
Yes, I'll have to try the staining and/or oil route. I was just wondering if others had experienced this color of white oak. Within any species of wood, I typically understand the variances. However, this was one I hadn't seen and was asking if there was a reason or an explanation. My experience with oils, specifically Watco's, is that its wonderful for highlighting the deeper beauty of the wood, but not necessarily for changing the color. Watco does make tinted oils, too. Still, I'm tryingt to understand the root of my material's characteristic greyness. Future projects for this client will first involve me not purchasing wood of this nature beforehand. Second, I'll match the wood to the site situation with the customer's approval ahead of time, too.
Bottom line, apparently no one reading this posting experienced this particular color or cared to comment back to me if they had. I thank you for expressing some solutions or workarounds.
Regards,
Pascanale
Pascanale,
I can't say I've run into your problem before.
As I mentioned, dyes are very useful for evening out colors. When they are under an oil as Andy suggested I don't think a color shift over time will be very noticeable.
The other thing you can do if you run into the gray again is to give it a wash with oxalic acid which is a wood bleach. Maybe it's an external contamination that can be rectified this way. I know it sounds like a PIA, but it just might do the trick.
The red oak I've worked with has a pinkish cast to it not a golden color. Just an observance.
Peter
Peter,
I wish I kwew how to reply to everyone at once since I need to clarify one misunderstanding--Sherwin Williams CAB acrylic lacquer is NOT water-borne but the typical lacquer vehicle like nitrocellulose. I use both but the CAB is pure white/clear like water-borne finishes. Yes, nitrocellulose does add some golden hue, which I like for certain situations but not appropriate here.
So, the question simply put is...why was this last batch of white oak grey? Red oak is goldish, and white a pale yellow-white if I may be so stereotypical and generalize.
Regards,
Pascanale
Pascanale,
You didn't mention anything besides the finish, so am I correct in assuming there was no color (dye or stain) added? Was your finish water or solvent based?
If you were to try a tinted lacquer, be sure to do it on a fairly large sample that is finished exactly like the wood you are looking to correct. As you already know, the best you can hope for is a better relation of color to it's surroundings as opposed to making the grey disappear.
As I mentioned in my correspondence with Andy, dyes are extremely useful in evening out slight imbalances in color. Many times it doesn't take much either. A color that I reach for a lot is Medium Yellow (W.D. Lockwood). In this case it is water soluble. I don't find the trade off of raising the grain to be that big a deal. I don't say that lightly either because I do quite a bit of site finishing of large rooms and have lots of square feet of woodwork to be sanded.
Good luck.
Peter
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