A lot of my work in the past has been from pure inspiration and some sketches. Now that I’m starting my business, I’m looking for ways to keep the material costs to what they should be. There is no doubt that a good set of drawings and plans are essential in creating an accurate cut list.
I am not unfamiliar with plans, drawings and blueprints so creating or reading them is not a problem for me. I’m just wondering how many of you actually take a concept and turn it into a plan before you build the project. I know a few folks that are totally convinced that a prototype is absolutely essential. I don’t buy that and do not understand how a shop can be profitable it you build two of everything new you make.
Steve – in Northern California
Edited 7/8/2002 11:33:05 AM ET by Steve Schefer
Edited 7/8/2002 11:34:09 AM ET by Steve Schefer
Replies
I also use AutoCAD for my drawings. It seems the more time in the chair the more efficient my work flows in the shop. The real benefit comes when the inevitable design change occurs during construction. It is a breeze to rescale a drawing and get all the dimensions correct.
I've been drafting since 9th grade and I'm 46. As an Architectural and Engineering Project Manager by day, I work with plans all day, every day. I've tried real hard to go with just a sketch, but I'm just not wired that way. I almost always make scale drawings, by hand with pencil, paper, Vemco machine and electric eraser. (I hate CAD). I've never had to scrap a piece yet, but I do error on the fat or long side if I'm unsure and will do partial mock-ups along the way making mid-course corrections if need be. I'll just change the dimension on the drawing and add 3 magic letters for future reference "NTS" (Not to Scale). While not being enslaved to them, using the Golden Section or Greek column porportions gets me in the ballpark everytime.
After I've got a drawing done with the critical dimensions I'll number the parts and make parts & cutting lists and a BOM with Excel. I'm not a complete dinosaur afterall.
John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I wish I could make computer programs more useful to me but I can't. Adobe Illustrator and CAD programs just seem to get in the way. The most serious problem for me is that the proportions and, size and "3-dimensionality" of the piece on the computer screen don't register in my brain in a way that actually lets me predict what the project will look like. And because I don't use the programs all the time, I am always spending gobs of time just trying to figure out how to use the program itself.
I sketch most everything I make. Somtimes only little thumbnails, and then solve problems during the actual work. Other times, I work out design details in my head and sketch them until they work. I try to make little design models also to work out proportions and relationships.
Rich
Rich, I'm with you when it comes to CAD programs. Obviously they are popular and used a lot but I have no desire to buy and learn more computer software at this time. I've tried them, but like you, I just don't like the feel as well as a sharp pencil with a good eraser. I think a lot of it is being able to read the drawing through the ruler. There's something to say for being able to layout endpoints with a known fixed length device that you can hold in your hand.Steve - in Northern California
Steve you have to check out a dedicated cabinet program. They are a lot easier to learn, and they give you very detail cutting lists with grain orientation. What would take you 40 hours to draw and list would take 4 hours or less.
My old cabinet shop partner had never touched a computer until he bought a program and computer from the same co. In a week he was up and running.
Congratulations on getting a shop 2000 feet is nice. Is that with office? It’s fun to set up a shop; I’m on my 3rd.
Jeff in so cal
Please post any references to cabinet software. I'm interested in something like that.
For the record, I'm a self-taught graphic artist that uses the computer every day. Sometimes I sketch and sometimes I use my illustration or 3D software for my projects. Depends on how detailed I want to be.
Michael
EasyCab is one and Cabinet Pro is another - Cabinet Pro is by far the most common recomendation . The price is steep at 1450.00 with a 250.00 annual support and update fee. The price is changing to 2,450.00 sometime this month.
Steve - in Northern California
They're raising the price? Must be a pretty robust program.
Michael
John, as a non architect trying to draw plans that make sense and projects that have form, function and rythum can you elaborate a little on the Golden Section and Greek Columns. I've been doing some research and find the subject(s) very interesting. It would be nice to hear about it from an Architects/Woodworkers point of view. You don't need to go indepth, just the basic priniciples, (thats probably easier said then done), if you wouldn't mind. If you know of any good references, that would be great too. I get my sense of balance from my minds eye. It would be nice to know why.Steve - in Northern California
If the project is simple enough, I use graph paper to draft it. Usually set 1 square equal to one square inch, although adjusting it to make best use of the paper. Sometimes, for more difficult projects I draft it using an architect's ruler, making sure I note the scale. This method is much more flexible and I prefer it because of a lack of background lines, which can get annoying to look at over and over. Any project with more than 15 or so parts gets a list posted in the shop and all lumber pulled/bought ahead of time to make sure it's ready to go when needed.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
My work usually draws inspiration from some antique piece of furniture in magazine or book. From there it is a sketch to approximate size and then a graph paper sketch. Our house is so small that all the furniture has to be custom-sized. I don't think I have ever gone from a set of working drawings. I don't think I'd have the patience to draw a project up on the computer. Old habits are hard to break, especially when the old way works so well (so far).
Tom
Steve,
I too can't be bothered with CAD drawings. I have tried it and found it takes way too much time. I prefer a pencil and a sketch pad. I draw everything including a perspectiev view of the finished piece and dimension it all. I then use CutList to determine how much material I need and of what sizes. CutList has recently added a new feature that allows me to enter what I have in the lumber rack (inventory) and use that as appropriate.
TDF
I mercilessly preach to my college furniture design students the importance of having a detailed and scaled plan to build their designs from. But that should only be the last drawing step in the design process.
I usually start a project with a list of parameter/features/qualities rather than any drawing. To write down as completely as possible all the expectations from a project I have helps avoid leaving something out.
Then I make rough sketches of the complete project. Once I have determined how all the functionality will be satisfied, I begin making detail sketches of various parts. I'll typically draw 20 to 40 revisions of a leg profile for a table, for example. All along I'll be drawing 2D and perspective versions of each revision.
When I think I've got the function and form resolved, I'll sketch it one more time onto graph paper to verify that everything looks good in scale. I'll make a breakdown list of each part off that drawing, with rough and final dimensions listed.
Occasionally I'll draw the thing in 3D in AutoCAD, or lately I've been playing with Sketch-Up. Sketch-Up is an amazing 3D CAD program that lets you build the project in 3D, and in perspective. It can be exported to an AutoCAD .DWG file if needed. The only real reason I do this is so that I can then quickly print out several different perspective views of the piece. It's easier to show a handful of these views to a friend for feedback then drag them to look at the thing on my PC.
If I expect anyone else to be building my design, I draw a complete set of plans, then blueline a copy for them.
Steve, it depends on what type of work your going to be doing I guess. This will dictate the depth of your need for either a 4D approach or just pencil and paper. Becareful you don't end up with a schedule like mine...http://swc4550.homestead.com/files/regular.htm instead of working with wood you will be working with your computer.
90% of my work will be cabinetry. I think it would be wise to do detailed plans on these and keep them around after the sale. I don't know why, but when I draw by hand I get more creative and see things in a different perspective.
10% of my business will be creating furnishings including some free standing cabinets. I don't necessarily need perfect plans for this type of work since each piece is unique. This has always been my method for approaching these types of projects since it affords me the greatest level of creativity. These usually start out as sketches and few sticks of wood. I think its important for me to keep it that way.Steve - in Northern California
The Golden Mean or Section is a real simple ratio 8:5 for any rectangle. It's also is known by it's discoverer Architraves (sp?). Interestingly enough the Golden Section also corresponds to the Fibonannci (sp?) Series. Greek columns are much more complicated and they vary with the type of column. There's major vertical divisions of 5 and then sub-divisions and ratios for width, etc. These ratios can be applied to a whole piece or positive or negative spaces within the pieces (e.g. how much stile to show) Just go web surfing and you'll find some usefull info.
There's a good article in an old FWW, probably around the 40's or 50's. Check the FWW on-line index. I have a fairly complete set from Vol. 11 on I could scan if you need it. Just a hunch, but Inan Kirby's probably a good author for non-period specific design how too.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
"Interestingly enough the Golden Section also corresponds to the Fibonannci (sp?) Series."
Ah yes, the Rabbit reproduction theory. The math was right but the genetics were sure screwed up... LOL
8:5 Provides the most appealing balance to the human eye. I use it all of the time, just had forgoten what it was called. Doh...
Doesnt the greek column have something to do with the optical illusion with straight or tapered columns. I seem to remember reading that to avoid it you would design the column with a curved bulge or something like that. I think I've heard that the same thing can happen with tall narrow bookshelves that violate the 8:5 and stand by themselves. Steve - in Northern California
There's several types of columns, I think the bulge applies to the Doric, but I can't keep them straight. Look them up every time.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I think you're right. Seems to me it was the doric.Steve - in Northern California
8/5 gets close (1.6). For anyone that wants some simple math to get closer, use this formula:
((sqrt of 5) plus 1) divided by 2. You'll get 1.61803398874989484820458683436564.
That ought to be enough accuracy to do it right. A dresser with the height of 48" would need a width of 30" when you use 8/5. Use the real ratio and the width would be 29.6656314599949527138201680495506, or 29 and 2/3 inches less roughly. Is it enough difference to worry about? I think so. I've made two rectangles with both ratios and stood them side-by-side. The rectangles were not labelled. I then asked everyone who passed by which one they preferred. 78% prefered the 1.618033988.. ratio. 20% prefered the other. 2% had no preference. I'll confess that those who voted were primarily architectural design students and faculty. ;-)
Another ratio I've found very useful is (sqrt of 2) or 1.4142135623730950488016887242097. Use 1.414. It's easier to remember. ;-) Make a rectangle table top with a 1:1.414 ratio. Fold that top in half one way, and it retains the same ratio. ;-)
Thank God James Krenov grew up without a computer.
Rich
Steve, I'm about where you are on the plans thing. Though I have draftsman training, I just loathe drawing plans. But, I loathe even more the results of NOT making plans. I recently did several seat-of the-pants projects which sent me right back to the drawing board!!
Taking the time to make good plans will eliminate 90% of mistakes because it causes you to think the thing through thoroughly. It exposes faults in your thinking, isolates problems of sequencing and so on.
Although I have experience in CAD, unless you use it very frequently, I find that it's not time effective so I went back to pencil and paper. The advanced CAD programs require a huge amount of training and I think are best suited for production designers, not one-off guys like us. I have 8 CAD programs from Autocad to Dmicrographics designer and find that they are either too complex or too simple or just plain don't work well (the cheaper ones). Haven't found one yet that is ideally suited to what I do.
Dave
Dave, you're right, thats exactly where I am right now. I've made the mistake of not planning ahead more times than I want to admit. Sometimes though I have a hard time getting a visual in my mind so thats when I sketch and build as I go. I usually end up ruining a lot of good wood thinking I'll get it right the first time. Face it, even crap wood is good if you can make something out of it. Case in point, I needed some cauls for a glue up recently and found some old Oak 2x2 that had been leaning a against the wall. One heck of bow but a natural caul.Steve - in Northern California
I'm with Dave on this one...I have made many jigs without plans, but that was because they were either so simple or they needed to mate to something exactly, where I would simply measure and cut, then trim until it fit. But one day I was making the most simple set of 2x4 and plywood shelves in my basement. This was when I first bought my house and wanted everything out of my garage except woodworking stuff, so I made shelves for my camping gear, sporting equipment, etc. I screwed them up so bad that it bothered me for at least a month that I couldn't build a simple little dinky set of shelves without a plan. It's not that I follow other plans, I always designed my own stuff (except maybe 8th grade shop).
-Del
I do. Every job, unless it's another bog standard box. I can't imagine how Hellish it would be to not produce working drawings. Working drawings allow a job to be planned, cutting lists to be generated, and fairly accurate estimates made prior to the building, and necessary changes are made from a base reference. In addition, working drawings from 'this' job let you modify the next similar job easily and simply without having to reinvent the wheel. I can't imagine the mistakes I'd find if I didn't plan a job as best I could prior to even cutting the first stick, but I have to admit that most of my furniture is technically complex and pernickety one way or another. Slainte, RJ.
Before this thread, I was all over the board on this. I've yet to pickup a "Complete Woodworking", (as if such a thing really exists), book that didn't start out with planning. The sketches, the detailed plans, the cut lists, the assembly plans and oh yes, the project plan.
As a project manager, (one of my many IT hats), I can usually review a project plan of a failed project and make a pretty close determination of what went wrong. Usually, it is where the communication stopped and part of the team went off on its own.
If I consider all of the drawings, cut lists, etc to be part of the way a project communicates within itself then they all become a necessary part of the project and the project would fail without them. Essentially I can view them as the simple steps required to get to the greater goal.
I've come to the conclusion that in a home shop environment, you probably don't need to make plans all the time. But, in a commercial shop environment, project failure is an unrecoverable loss. While a project can still fail if something is wrong with the plans, they certainly reduce the risk. Every risk needs to be identified and have a method of mitigation. Poor planning is mitigated with good planning.
Finally, my custom cabinetry is going to become part of my portfolio that I will be presenting to customers. If I intend to be profitable, then repetition with reduced overhead becomes a key factor. A good set of plans from a previous successful project certainly reduces the amount of time required to produce the next project.
So, yes I agree with you, and this long dissertation is why.
Thanks for the input.
Steve - in Northern California
I build mostly period stuff, mostly Federal but love Shaker, Arts and Crafts, etc. I've been doing this long enough that I don't use plans. I either design myself or build from a photo that I've found along the way. I layout on a scrap...full size. This eliminates MOST construction/joinery problems and gives you a cut list that almost always works. Design is another matter. The second piece is always better than the first. Right now I'm building a serpantine front dresser. I've never done this type of piece before, but 3 or 4 full size layouts have pushed me in the right direction. Anyway, at least my wife has a housefull of first runs that makes friends and neighbors pretty jealous...by the way...the dresser looks nice, but I can already see that the curve on number 2 will be a little bit nicer....
Steve,
Regardless of Cadd drawings or hand drawn sketches, it is important to draw the plans to scale and present to the client before ordering the wood. Opening up a business makes you liable for the items fabricated within; without "signed off" drawings, you could open your self up to rejection, (and eating the cost of production). If it is a custom stand-alone piece, the client has to understand the types of details piece will have, or, if cabinetry, then maybe a more visual mock-up piece of a cabinet door will work just as well. In any case records of the acceptance of the design are a must.
In addition, if you have other people working with you, the drawings are used to convey your ideas to them. This will avoid reworking of a piece.
Marcello
Edited 10/7/2002 3:32:40 PM ET by TMARCELLO
Oh how right you are !. However, there are formal and informal remodels. Formal with an architect involved, permits, etc. and informal with just the homeowner and a few subs.
I'm involved in an informal one right now, (doing the cabinets), and they are having a hard time understanding why the cabinets will delay the job by at least two weeks. I've explained that I can't cut wood until the drywall is in and I have some real numbers to work with. I've told them repeatedly to have some plans drawn for us to work from and there would be no delay but they've been told by others that the plans are not required.
I am an architect by trade so I always look for the formal approach no matter who the client is or what the project is. It is very easy to do it the informal way and wing it; it takes extra effort to go the extra mile and "educate" the client as to the process and liability involved in a work without plans. You could tell your client you could start on cutting wood for their cabinets, but if dimensions are off and things don't line up, they can't hold you liable. Put it in writing and have them sign it. If there are items to be "fixed" because of the rush to get it done, you can then charge them on a time and material basis (make sure they understand that) -- this could be avoided by taking the extra time as you suggest and field verify dimensions prior to fabrication. To complete the professional work they hired you for, you should insist on certain procedures to be followed to avoid rejection of the work -- after all your name is on the bill. The way you handle the client and their suggestions will determine if you get a referal or not. The informal way does work in certain cases, provided everyone understands potential implications and provided selective memory loss does not occur in the process. Only you know how to deal with your client, I am generalizing for the most part.
Good luck
Marcello
You hit the nail one the head. I specifically refer to the selective memory part. Those of us with the slightest bit of integrity always put the customer first and attempt to steer them in the correct direction. Unfortunately, sometimes the customer knows best and we have to compensate for that. My motto is simply this "If you cant get it accross the first time, charge double". Sooner or later they will either figure it out or stop asking you to work for them. In either case, both parties will benifit.
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