want to buy decent crosscut and rip handsaws. Do I really need to pay $100 each for Pax handsaws? My father bought Stanley 50 years ago, but the quality isn’t what it was. I want decent handsaws that will serve me well for a long time.
Suggestions?
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Replies
1) Buy Japanese saws.
2) Buy older Disston/Atkins/etc. saws and have them professionally sharpened by someone who knows his stuff (or learn to do so yourself - I understand Tom Law no longer sharpens [other than his own stock], but there are others - IIRC there is a gentleman named Cooke or Crooke mentioned recently, who sharpens saws? In any event, if you use it much, you'll eventually either have to have it set and sharpened when it dulls, or learn to do so). Saws are SO cheap secondhand, especially at garage sales. I found a beautiful 80-plus-year-old D-12 'London Spring' Disston for a bargain price on the 'bay from a seller who I assume didn't know just what it was. Cuts hard maple like buttah. Or, if fleas/ebay doesn't suit you, buy high-quality older saws from a reputable seller - Tom Law sells great older saws already sharpened, or for good users also try Thomas Bruce at http://www.workingtools.biz/ - he has a good selection, and posts lotsa new stuff every week. There are plenty of others too.
3) For smaller tenon/DT saws, there are now several small-shop makers, but they are uniformly pricey. (I do like my Adria, but I admit it -- for small, precise DT cuts, I'm much more likely to reach for my $10 Zona saw.)
4) Even Pax has gotten mixed reviews for their quality just lately - haven't tried one, so I can't speak from personal knowledge on those.
I think any of these routes is more likely to make you happy than trying to find a well-made new American saw for a price much under $100 ...
Good luck, let us know what you do!
Clay
thank you for incredibly thorough answers!
Mel Birgé
Get an old Disston. There are probably a number of good sharpening services around the nation, but one of the best is Cooks in Carlisle, PA. Happens to be not far from where I live. He knows Disstons very well. And, how to sharpen a saw. Sharpens for people all over the nation.
A #12, #112, #9, or others. Take a look at http://www.disstonianinstitute.com for more info than you can remember on Disstons. The best source available today, probably.
Alan - planesaw
Would you happen to have a number for Cooks. I googled without success.
Thanks
Mel Birgé
Mel,
Cook's Sharpening & Grinding Service
3331 W. Market St.
York, PA
717-793-9527
Merry Christmas!
Alan - planesaw
Thank you. Have a wonderful holiday!
You are welcome!
Merry Christmas!
Alan - planesaw
I would look at auctions also for older Disstons. Unfortunately a school close by ended its wood shop program and had many disston tenon saws. I bought 6 of them that day all in good to excellent shape for about 15 dollars apiece. I wish I could have found a Stanley saw vise that day but oh well. Check out some of the web sites mentioned above to help you find what is out there.
Ibid to what the other folks said.
Garage sale fodder, handsaws of good old usable steel with comfortable handles can often be had for 3-5 bucks, just don't by any with bent blades.
Having them professionally sharpened is relatively cheap, and so, for 15 bucks or less you got yerself a good handsaw.....
and they is all cordless to boot!
Eric in Cowtown
melb
OK. I'm gonna give you some contradictory info here. I have both Lie Nielsen saws, and absolutely love them. I had a Pax, and sold it after I got the LN's. Thinner kerfs, and they cut and track just beautifully. You won't get either with a cheapo garage sale saw or a disston unless you send it to somebody who knows how to sharpen VERY well, and stone down the kerf properly. I use them every single day, as I do a lot of hand work, and absolutely love them. I also have a japanese saw, which cuts very well, but I prefer the LN's. My .02.
Jeff
Jeffie...
How can you sell one of yer old friends...
..It worked for ya presumably for a number of years. Why not just park it and only use it when yer LN might get dirty from pitchy lumber etc....
BTW, have you called up LN and asked them if they sell a handsaw which will cut through nails like Disston/Atkins used to make? Or perhaps even a taper-ground zero-set handsaw.
As far as I know if ya want either of those , the route to aquisition is either through garage sales or else throwing a wad of cash towards the old tool dealers who know what old saws is really worth, as in what folks actually pay for em......
But with the Garage sale route, I guess you gotta know what you is looking at cause otherwise you just think a 3$ saw is only worth 3$. Kinda like the difference between a diamond and a piece of broken glass eh?
Eric in Cowtwon
The best place to get a good handsaw is a tool dealer or betters a flea market or garage sale. You should not need to pay more than about $20 and will get a saw of far superior quality to any you can purchase today. In fact, when it comes to Western saws, I do not think you can purchase a newly manufactured one that is any good at all. Start with the handle; the old ones were ergonomic long before the term existed. The new ones are not even functional and make your hand tired and sore. In saws the older the better with the high water mark being between about 1880 and 1930. You do have to be a bit careful about very old saws, especially English ones. You often find examples that have become brittle. The best thing is to try setting it and if teeth snap it is suitable for painting by the local artist and not woodworking. (Don’t get me going about the fine saws that have met this ignominious fate of painting.) If the saw has a nib (a small post on the top tip of the saw) it was probably made before about 1895. Also make sure the handle is not broken and all the screws that hold it to the blade are in tact.
To restore the saw, remove these screws, clean it with navel jelly if rusted, clean it further with fine abrasive paper, set it and file it. You will be rewarded with a true friend. (Yes saws are anthropomorphic and seem to have a definite personality. I like about a five point rip saw and an eight to ten point cross cut. Points are the number of teeth within one inch so it is one more that our usual way of counting? The point count is often stamped in the left side of the heel of the blade and is a good indicator of how many times it has been sharpened.
While Distons are excellent (before the H.K. Porter Company bought them out in the mid 20th Century) the absolute high water mark of saw craftsmanship are those made by Adkins. I have three Adkins saw, a 10 point cross cut with nib, a beautiful 5 point rip and a very experienced 10 point back saw. Press me for pictures and I will post.
Consider this a press!
Here are some photos of my Atkins saws. The cross-cut is actually a 9 point and has a nib. The rip is a 5 point. Notice the beautiful Apple handles. The back saw is very experienced and has been sharpened a dozen or so times by me. Still a great cutting saw that holds an edge.
Thanks for the photos. You obviously take pride in your work and care for your tools.
Wow! A reply from Ernie Conover! That's like posting a Nascar question and getting a response from Jeff Gordon. Thank you for your suggestions.
My luck on ebay has been mixed --but, I haven't spent more than $15. Which is good since my definition of straight involves comparing to something that is straight. I've gotten a couple where straight bends to left or right.
I've tried to keep toward the mid-40's saws. Some of the earlier ones appear as if they've been ground and sharpened several times (1/2 inch at the tip sort of thing).
Am I being too cautious?
I enjoy your articles immensely!
Saws from the 40s are still o.k. but earlier is better. You should be able to find early saws that show virtually no sign of use. A tool dealer at a show I attended several years ago had about 30 saws in a barrel at $20 each. They were all pretty good and I was able to find an Adkins. I think you are being too cautious, but and important part of this problem is the ability to sharpen the saw yourself, including straightening out miss filing of teeth.
I don't know if you can still get as good of a rip saw as in days of yore. My Dad and my Grandfather each had dedicated rip saws, as well as crosscut saws. Disston was the good brand name back then if I remember correctly. You can probably buy good ones on Ebay that will clean up nicely.
Each of those saws cost nearly a week of their pay. Now days, a circle saw doesn't cost a weeks pay, and no one seems to rip by hand anymore. You probably won't do much of that either whether you buy the saws or not.
Those Japanese saws are better crosscut saws than anything around 20 or more years ago, in lots of ways. They aren't too good on plywood, or for ripping, but thats are where a guy needs to be using power tools anyhow.
I like my table and band saws. I just can't stand the noise. I like the quiet of handsawing. Especially smaller jobs. When using the power tools, so much of my concentration is taken up with safety. Not nearly so with the hand tools.
That's fine, but it is still hard to find a ripsaw these days, and hard also to work up the "want to" to rip a few 8' boards by hand.
I agree with all who recommend older Disston's and Adkins'; both in pre-WWII age are very available on antique toosites, and e-bay. I have tried the flea market route like Ernie Conover recommends but I have not had any luck with these. Most of what I have I have gotten from E-bay and most have been in very good condition. A few are bad but if you ask the seller questions most will be honest with you; some just dont know about old saws so i usually do not buy from them
Once you get some hand saws which are wonderful to use if properly tuned you have pretty much made the committment to learn to sharpen them. I love Japanese saws for fine joinery work but there is only one place to send them to get sharpened in the USA and he only works on the good ones which will cost you $150 and up. Replaceable blade solve this but I also love the old English and American makes.
Go to http://www.vintagesaws.com and you will find a great source for information and saws. The owner started Independence Saws which Lie-Nielsen bought to start their saw line. One final thought; get some cheapies from e-bay to learn to sharpen. Start with rip saws and then go to cross-cuts, then back -saws. I am in the cross-cut stage and find the exercise wonderful use of your time. Prior to WWII every carpenter sharpened his saws as the last duty of the day.
Dan Evans
Dan:Thank you for your comments. While I sharpen my chisels and planes, I'm a little intimidated by the idea of sharpening saws. Seems like an extraordinary requirement of both skill and time. Where and how did you learn to do it? I see sharpening equipment on ebay, but wouldn't know how to purchase.
Thanks
Mel Birgé
Mel,It is not as hard as you think. Some useful resources are: the web site I listed in my previous post, http://www.vintagesaws.com is excellent. It is Pete Taran's site who has a very good, detailed description of how to sharpen saws. The only tools you need are the right sized saw files which are triangular and of various lengths for different sized teeth, a saw vise which you can make or buy a old one on e-bay, and a fine mill file to joint the teeth with. Everything except the files can be made. See Garrett Hack's excellent book on Classical Hand Tools for a good description.Tom Law also has an excellent video on Saw Sharpening which I highly recommend. It is older but still very available. Tage Frid also has a very good description in his first book. I also recomend buying some decent but cheap saws from e-bay to practise with. Start with 26" rip saws. Like all other sharpening it all about the right angles. Be patient and you will be glad when you get the hang of it. It like all sharpening is a great and fundamental skill to have. Dan
Thank you
A while back, I needed a handsaw - - right now. Bought a "Lynx" from Woodcraft. I really choked up at $100 for a saw, but it is an excellent saw. A week ago, I found an old Disston at a garage sale for $5.00, a bit of phosphoric acid and a lot of elbow grease cleaned up the blade & I just dropped off to be professionally sharpened. We'll see how that works.
I figured having that done once - getting all the teeth the same length, properly set, etc. would be worth $8.00 and I can touch it up with a file for a long time before that service is needed again.
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