Hi all. I’m just now realizing that my wholesaler has been adding an additional 18% board feet fee fto every order I’ve ever made of what they call waste. I’ve simply never remeasured when I got the boards into my shop. Their explanation to me was that the 18% breaks down to 7% for kiln drying and 11% is lost with straight line cutting. I understand the concepts of loss of material to kiln drying and cutting 3 sides. But I don’t understand why the 18% is added on after my bd. ft. is selected. Why doesn’t the quoted price/bd ft already represent the waste they incurred? Worse still is that my client knows exactly how many board feet I picked up and how many board feet he was charged. I’ve seen upset clients before but this situation has presented me with a new introductory level of an angry client! Can someone enlighten me, please?
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Replies
Is it planed? S2S? S3S? S4S?
John,
It is s2s. it is rough sanded on all sides except the one rough edge.
Your wholesaler should raise his BF prices to cover his costs. The back-door charge is BS. They could also sell rough cut lumber measured out by the board-foot and let you ask for the straight line rip and charge you for the service. You can shop for a new supplier or just do the math before you quote for a project.
Shopping for a new supplier is my next step. Thanks!
From your description, I understand that you are buying your wood by the square footage of what you are getting, that is dried and squared. For example if the board is 8 ft long, 5 inches wide and made from 1 inch stock, you get 3,3 square feet of wood. To make this board, the rough lumber was 6 inches wide and wood is measured and sold in green wood dimensions so it really took 4 board foot of freshly milled lumber to get your 3,3 square feet. I usually buy 15% more board feet’s of lumber than the square footage I planned and that usually works if the rough lengths are close to what I need.
It is common practice for a supplier to charge 7% for kiln shrinkage. In other words if you pay for 100 BF, you will receive 93 BF of dried lumber.
When you ask for a quote you should insist on Net-Net price, they will know what you mean by that. Net price for net board feet after drying. For straight line ripping or skip planing they should quote a flat rate per board or linear foot.
This keeps it simple on your end.
This is almost exactly how they described it to me. It sounds like back-door up charging to me. My client found information on a wholesaler's standards website that says this practice of "back charging for waste" has been deemed illegal for a number of years. But I can't actually use that as an arguing point without legal backup. Thanks for your explanation.
Their pricing structure seems awkward.
But after all their fancy math, how do the prices compare with the competition?
Mike
Again the 7% shrinkage has been standard practice for a long time, I first ran into it in the mid 80's, after which I always insisted on a "net/net" price- problem solved.
I would have a problem with their 11% "waste" charge. It is reasonable to charge for straight line ripping or skip planing but it should not be lumped into shrinkage.
I would also note you should avoid a customer getting involved in material costs or supplying materials, like the plague. Give them a price, work out a deposit and draws, if necessary, and keep them out of your business.
… In other words if you pay for 100 BF, you will receive 93 BF of dried lumber... That is where misunderstanding begins, you don’t receive 93 BF, you receive 93 square feet, the BF is for green rough lumber, it’s only normal that volume is lost in drying and if you ask for it to be straight, the kerf alone will account for some percentage waste and a 1/2 inch bow on a 5 inches wide board account for another 10% waste from the original BF measurement.
They sell or have on stock rough or unfinished lumber? You ask for finished Lumber? If so then of course you bought the unfinished wood and then the waste charge makes sense. They could quote you prices a different way...rough lumber x$ a board foot -finished x$ a board foot but then they would have to know what stock they are going to get your order from and is an inventory problem for them. This is just easier for them. Waste amounts could vary depending on what stock is available and your order. Desk man and yard man may see things differently as well.
If your doing your work by the hour and the client is paying for materials separately well then ...but if you are charging for the job...an agreed on price then (and the question does come up, more times than it should) "How much was labor and how much was materials? "The proper answer to that is " none of your business "! You can come up with a more polite way to express that if you wish . There is a reward for agreed upon or contracted prices, or there should be ,but sometimes you end up taking a hit. Most of my stuff has always been one off so actually I have been dinged many times. Material prices can change over night and if you based a quote on what you thought something cost and then when you actually go to get it its more or much more,well it happens! But underestimating my time has been what has gotten me most.
If I bought and payed for materials I try and add a percentage. If for some reason I blew it on the time involved that percentage can act as a buffer between a real wage and minimum wage. If I got something done in less time or on time and I stumble on a deal for materials then lucky me! Winners and losers hopefully average out.
I have done work both ways. If I set a price for the work and a client is paying for materials I would say up front that the cost of materials is just what it is. Their problem ,not mine! I don't control that and usually in those cases what it cost is what they pay with no bump for me.
Even for the most wealthy clients ,and sometimes they are the worst, whining about cost seems almost universal.
I've never seen lumber charges that add on a "waste" charge. But it's a big country, and I have no idea what regional differences there are.
But, there is always a waste charge, one way or another. Around here, they charge by the board foot for rough lumber. It's a pretty clear pricing model. If you want surfaced and edged lumber, they sell it by the linear foot. Obviously, it's higher, and accounts for both the "waste" and their labor and machine time. You can also just buy the rough lumber, then pay another charge to have it milled -- useful if you want boards thicknesses to, say 1-1/8" instead of the usual 3/4".
I know right now you feel misled. But don't cut off your nose to spite your face. Look at other lumberyards. See what they charge to get lumber to the same state as you've been getting, and go with whatever gets you the best product/price/service. It's a business. Don't take it personal.
The practice seems odd to me as well. If the charge is always there just include it in the price. Of course in the US we also price items before tax even thought the tax is always charged. Laziness or silliness aside I always shop my total cost; I often pay a higher price for an item if I get some other total cost reducing benefit like "free" shipping. Check another yard but remember to factor in distance, selection, service levels, etc. The practice may rankle but if the overall out of pocket is less it is a non-issue.