Replies

1. 
   Dale | Jan 15, 2003 06:31pm | #1

   Please see the following post: http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=9930.1

   Dale

   
   

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   Edited 1/15/2003 10:37:55 AM ET by Dale

1. 
   ccampbell | Jan 15, 2003 06:42pm | #2

   Thanks Dale.  I had read the first response on that thread but not the others.  That helps.  If you are using the jointer to help flatten a board prior to planing, then you'd really need to get the largest jointer possible, it seems.  The entry level 6" variety would only allow you to flatten a 6" wide board, correct?

1. 
   Dale | Jan 15, 2003 07:19pm | #4

   Yes, that's the way I see it.  I fell into a 16" jointer years ago for a hundred bucks! Got four hundred in it, phase converter, parts etc..  Would not trade for it.  I've moved several times since I purchase that " ship's anchor" as one friend referred to some of my machinery.  I've got to feed the help very well when I move.  Hopefully, my kids or my wife will move it next time as I'm putting down roots and don't plan on moving again.

   Enjoy the day,

   Dale

1. 
   KevinLBS | Jan 17, 2003 01:43am | #15

   So the way I'm reading this all is that even if I have a $1000+ 8" jointer (I have a 6"), or am lucky enough to find a 16" for $100, I still should never purchase rough lumber over 8" because I can't guarantee a flat side, right?

   Looks like the hardwood supplier will still have to make it S3S for me :)

1. 
   Dale | Jan 17, 2003 04:37am | #16

   Evening Kevin,

   There is some point of what's too large, a new 16" jointer is going to be $4000+ so I'd probably settle for new $1500 8" jointer, unless I was rich and famous, : ' >

   Other may speak up here and that's fine.  But, the way I handle wider boards than 16" is rip them down the middle or somewhere to make them less than 16", joint the board's face and edges and thickness plane, at least rough plane and put it back together, after I hit the edge with a hand plane.  You say, take a perfect board and cut it up and put it back together, YES! If I lived in a large city I'd go hunt someone to joint the 20" board for me and then plane the sucker, still might do it anyway if I could justify a trip to the city, in fact I have two 25" wide x 2.5" walnut by 7' I will probably take to the city as they will be desk tops.  I think that's the way Sam Maloof used to do things.  Anyway, that's the way I do things. Of course you could build a router-planer with a sled thingy.  If I worked super wider timbers as George Nakashima did I probably would take the time to make one.  I'd love to hear from other..........Dale

2. 
   rslatm | Jan 15, 2003 07:18pm | #3

   I still get amazed when I read posts like yours.  Kind of nice to have such a simple existence and not need all kinds of tools.  In industry we buy wood rough and "need" a jointer as big as a planer. Our jointer is a 20".  We face and edge our wood. More power to you if you can get away with  not needing one.  Technically Forest Products Laboratories says the best edge joint comes from a machined edge from a jointer and a sawn edge is not as good. The exception is a striaght line rip saw but that's an entirely different animal.

   
   

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   Edited 1/15/2003 2:47:39 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork

1. 
   Dale | Jan 15, 2003 07:27pm | #5

   Rick...one sight disagreement with your statement.  The best gluing edge comes from a hand-planed surface, FPL and other have stated that many times.  My joints get a few hits with a plane prior to glue-up.  Not trying to start an argument, as I won't argue....Just the facts as I know them.  But, I will agree if I was running a milling shop I could not hand plane every board and stay in business, unless my name was Roy Underhill, : ' >.

   Have a good day,

   Dale

1. 
   rslatm | Jan 15, 2003 09:13pm | #6

   FPL states that a "smooth knife cut surface is best for bonding".  It doesn't say, handplaned, as I read it,  plus the text is designed with industry in mind. 

   http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/FPLGTR/fplgtr113/Ch09.pdf

   OK...I talked to Chuck Frihart at FPL. The reference mentions nothing about handplaning. It's geared toward knife cut surfaces from power machinery. According to Chuck they have no information that says handplaning is superior to machined surfaces.  Do you have any other sources Dale? I'd love to have more documentation about the subject. 

1. 
   Dale | Jan 16, 2003 09:32am | #8

   Rick,

   I'm not able at this time to locate any reference material to support my claim, other than I have recalled reading this many times in respected literature.  I talked with a wood professor where I attended school and he agreed with me for what ever that is worth, but he could not sight nothing either.  When I locate this information again I will post it.   Enjoyed the search, learn a few things.

   Dale

2. 
   b1gcountry | Jan 16, 2003 09:26pm | #9

   The surface can only approach smooth when it is cut with a rotary cutterhead. With a handplane, the surface has to be flat and smooth. A high quality and tuned jointer will do just fine. Its the ones that leave evident ridges that will fail a glue line, IMO.

   Tom

1. 
   rslatm | Jan 16, 2003 09:41pm | #10

   I'm really only interested in iformation with documentation to corroborate it. I've got a millon guys with opinions around me here.  I'm in contact with Forest Product Laboratories and have Bruce Hoadley just up the road so I will probably contact him. Dale mentioned a handplane as the ultimate edge treatment for a glue joint.  I never read such a thing in my thirty years in the industry but  I might have missed it. I've met too many woodworkers who sling info from the hip so my approach is to use as much technical data to justify my techniques and methods.

2. 
   Dale | Jan 16, 2003 11:14pm | #11

   Rick,

   I too have used USFS-FPL many times.  At times I don't feel like I've gotten a well thought out answer.  Somehow I found out and contacted Mississippi's FPL , could be Mississippi State, not sure.  But, I've always hung the phone up quite satisfied.  Shoot,  the MS. folks have even sent me videos to view.  I can't say enough good about them.  I'm a forester 8-5 and work with young folks from time to time.  If they ask about forest products I recommend they check out Mississippi's forest products program. 

3. 
   rslatm | Jan 17, 2003 12:27am | #14

   Thanks, I'll try that. The folks in Forest Products Laboratories in Wisconsin seem to be stronger in other aspects of Wood Technology than millwork and furniture information.  http://www.woodweb.com has some pretty interesting stuff and is more geared toward the professional larger shops and factories.

   Edited 1/16/2003 4:35:51 PM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork

4. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 17, 2003 02:29pm | #17

   Hi Rick,

   Found some written 'evidence' for you.  Garrett Hack, Taunton Press, "The Handplane Book" p105-106.

   Essentially he argues that:

   He hasn't had total success gluing up boards off a machine.

   Machine jointed edges contain ripples, regardless of how smooth they appear, which stops the wood from contacting fully on adjacent glued faces.  When blades become dull, the surface fibres are pounded into the wood or abraded = poor glue surface.

   Hand planed surface is flatter and cleanly cut fibres allow more glue penetration into the board (reading between the lines in what he's written).

   Despite the fact that he may have been writing to his target market I agree with these comments.  Repeating my earlier point, if you haven't had glue line failures, then it might be more technical than practical difference.

   Cheers,

   eddie

5. 
   rslatm | Jan 17, 2003 04:35pm | #18

   Thanks Eddie. Not exactly the scientific documentation I was looking for but good try.   Everyone I know and FPL says also a properly tuned jointer will also yield good glue joints. Garretts description of the problem jointer is more an issue of one that needs a good tuning. One of the points FPL made also is to glue up within a short window and I'm sure that applies to either method.  There's a lot of variables that can affect a glue up so it's often difficult to pin point the problem area. It's pretty impractical to expect a large operation to handplane joints. Probably one of the largest causes of failures in panels is improper storage such as unheated and damp basements. Since we are all just woodworkers I don't think there is any scientific evidence of the superiority of a handplaned surface as of yet!?  Rather than taking a stand of handworking versus machine working I prefer to use both where ever it is deemed most appropriate and based on what is available at hand to get the job done! With woodworking there's just too many ways to accomplish the same task and no way is the wrong way if it works. 

6. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 17, 2003 11:01pm | #20

   Yeah Rick,

   I don't have a problem with what you're saying - - - The short timeframe between edging and glueup is also critical, esp on timbers such as eucalypt that 'oxidise' quickly.  We work on 1/2 hour between leaving the jointer/saw and glue application as ideal.

   I work mainly (almost exclusively) with hand tools at home and almost exclusively power tools at work, so I don't have a barrow to push either.

   I misunderstood the thrust of your question.  As I said earlier, my training was to give the edge of the board a lick with a plane after it left the jointer.  I thought that you were looking for reasons/proof as to the problematic methods of making widening joints.

   Anyway, as I said before, this could be more of a technical difference as opposed to a practical one.

   Cheers,

   eddie

7. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Jan 16, 2003 11:33pm | #12

   Rick,

   I was trained by an old German Cabinetmaker, and he said that the knives on the jointer head pound and compress surface fibres that then swell under the glue, whereas a planed surface doesn't.  He always swiped the machine-jointed edge with a plane before glue-up.  Once again, I haven't got time to look for the back-up either - if I come across anything, I'll shoot it over.

   Having said this, if you haven't had a glue-line failure in 30 years, it's probably a technical, not practical difference.  I'd be interested to hear what Bruce Hoadley has to say if you'ld care to share it after you speak to him

   eddie

   edit:  mixed tense.

   Edited 1/16/2003 3:48:33 PM ET by eddie (aust)

8. 
   b1gcountry | Jan 16, 2003 11:56pm | #13

   Well, then go to a law newsgroup. We're woodworkers. I haven't said anything contrary to your FPL. If you really are interested, do your own test. I have. The hand jointed board breaks less along the glue line.

   Tom

3. 
   booch | Jan 15, 2003 11:52pm | #7

   NFI.*

   I too use the Table saw for all my jointing. I actually picked up an older 4 inch rockwell jointer for 50 bucks from a buddy (motor was toast). I've since fixed it and tuned it but it comes down to the fact that I'd have to compensate for the material I would joint away. If the TS is singing fine I don't mess with the jointer. I measure cut and fit.

   It is a good place to rest a coffee cup or a beer.

   (*Not the Faintest Idea)

4. 
   booch | Jan 17, 2003 05:20pm | #19

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