I just bought several old hand planes from an old tool dealer…#26 and #32 Stanley-Bailey (transitionals) from about the turn-of-the-century, among others.
When I got them home, I cleaned them up with some mineral spirits and tried them out…they work very well and were quite cheap as compared to the new wooden planes that I see for sale at $300. I paid about 10% of that and less!!
Why would I buy a new wooden or tranistional plane, when I can go to this old dealer and have my choice of any brand and type from him at a fraction of the cost?
thanks,
erik.
Replies
From the ones I have seen on the market, the older planes will not come close to having the very fine mouths available on the Clark & Williams smoothers, nor will they often be found with York pitch. Both of those features are nice to have if you are working with highly figured woods. The older planes also take more time to tune up, which only matters if time is money or if you just don't have enough of it.
I guess this would apply to the new car / used car argument, as well. Do you want something that works and has a warranty; or do you want to take a chance that a used item will work, without any recourse if it doesn't. I'll keep my Lie-Nielsens, thank you.
Lie-Nielsens are very good, but they are just refined copies of 80 year old technology. Not much risk in buying an old plane. It is very easy to see what it needs to make it work right. Once both have been tuned, most if not all, of the advantage of a L-N over a Bedrock, or for that matter over a Bailey, is in the blade. Having some of the specialty planes, that are very scarce, available anew is a big plus for L-N of course.
Hi Steve,
To your knowledge, was ductile cast iron widely used in the good old days, or is its availability a relatively recent change?
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Not an expert here, but I think it was not used on the Bailey planes, and its current use may be new. It is a plus to be sure, if you are prone to dropping planes on concrete.
Jazz:ISTR hearing or reading that Stanley used ductile iron on the #5ΒΌ "school" plane. Can't come up with anything to confirm it, tho.Leon
Go to http://www.supertool.com and look for the B&G section. Descriptions of all Stanley planes are in there.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Thanks, Leon!-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Erik
I think you've got a great point. It could be applied to probably any tool out there. As a bit of a hand tool freak, I've bought quite a few older tools. Most of the ones I've come across have been abused. The super clean planes with crisp tight mouths usually end up in the hands of collectors, for equal or even MORE money than a new LN, LV, or the like.
With time and experience, many times ALOT of both, most old tools can be fixed up real nice. In another thread, we were recently talking about tuning up old stanley hand planes. I just spent almost 8 hours (not all at once) getting an old prewar 606 Bedrock cleaned, tuned, flat, and ready for action. I also spent $55 on a new Hock blade and chipbreaker, as the one that came with it was rusty junk. A lot of people either do not know how, or don't want to spend the time dealing with it.
With woodies, you can always inlay an adjustable mouthpiece of lignum vitae or the like, but once again, knowledge and time. Many of the old woodies I've come across have split wedges (or none at all), and the cheeks have been split out and repaired.
I look forward to hearing what others think on this topic. It should be a great thread, thanks for posting it.
Happy New Year
Jeff
Edited 12/30/2005 4:59 pm ET by JeffHeath
Hi Erik,
First of all, congratulations on your find.
My answer to your question is...you shouldn't. To second what another poster has said, it's easy to tell if the tool is worth buying, provided you know what to look for (and I'm assuming you do). I'm convinced that it depends a great deal upon where you live when making the decision to buy new or used. Where I'm at, the old goodies are extremely scarce, and I'm always a day late and a dollar short. So I'm pretty much forced to venture online and look. Most of the time the prices (whether it's the bay or a reputable dealer) are close to what a new L-N costs...sometimes even more, so it's a no-brainer. It amazes me when I hear about people picking up a 603 etc. for 50 bucks or less. Seems like most of these transactions take place out east...hmmmm, wonder if the wife would agree to move... (lol).
Notwithstanding what I've written, I don't really feel that L-N's are expensive (now Bridge City and some of the "boutique" makers...those, IMHO, are expensive). You just have to put things into perspective. For example, I have a friend and co-worker who likes to build stuff, but doesn't have many tools. So he comes over from time to time and uses my shop. Says he "can't afford" to put a shop together. He won't blink an eye at spending 5 bucks a day on gourmet coffee, plus another 6 or 7 on fast food...every...day. That's over 50 dollars per week he could be saving for tools. Also has a brand new diesel F250 that he doesn't really "need" (over 500 bucks a month, he's told me). *sigh*
Anyway, I envy you and your access to those old tools. Good luck in your future finds.
RR
erik was heard saying....
I just bought several old hand planes from an old tool dealer...#26 and #32 Stanley-Bailey (transitionals) from about the turn-of-the-century, among others.
When I got them home, I cleaned them up with some mineral spirits and tried them out...they work very well and were quite cheap as compared to the new wooden planes that I see for sale at $300. I paid about 10% of that and less!!
Why would I buy a new wooden or tranistional plane, when I can go to this old dealer and have my choice of any brand and type from him at a fraction of the cost?
thanks,
erik.
.....................................................
Provided they ain't abused, worn out, or damaged, they work fine. Learn to differentiate the garbage from the good ones.
With a sharp blade and a waxed sole, they will glide over a lot of stuff with ease. My first experience with em was planing an 18' 6x8 beam true, and although I started with a 7 or 8 bailey, the weight soon got to me. I switched about a quarter way through, and found the weight reduction quite enjoyable.
Want a thin mouth? make an insert in the throat to tighten it up.
They work and can work well.
Eric in Cowtown
I have yet to buy my first "new" plane. I prefer to cut my teeth (and a bit of wood) on old tools.After bringing a lot back from the dead, I feel that I have a better idea of how they work, what to look for and what I like.For now, I like making my mistakes and learning what not to do. Maybe someday I'll feel worthy of a LN or Clifton or ______.For perspective, I priced the low end delta 12" planer with a LN and Veritas scrub plane. Talk about a wakeup call.Jim
froglips,
I did the same thing you did and felt the same way. Then I got to thinking...I know scarey thing...that if I got good at tuning old planes and they made good shavings I wouldn't have a need to spend my pennies on a new LN, et al.
If at first you don't succeed....kick it!
For perspective, I priced the low end delta 12" planer with a LN and Veritas scrub plane. Talk about a wakeup call.
did you add the cost of the chip collector, air filteration system and all the PPE required to use your low end thicknesser too..?? How about the cost of replacement blades on a regular basis, extra infeed / outfeed rollers and the electrickery bill too...?? If you're gonna compare costs, be sure to include all the costs, not just the ones that make woodmunchers seem attractive.... Of course.. I'm missing the obvious assumption that you're happy to restrict the max width of your work to the limitations of your planer or jointer..??? Personally I prefer to stick with fine wide boards..
With a scrub plane, or any other for that matter, all the paying you do is when you buy it... there's no ear splitting noise, no dust, no risk of back injury every time you want to move the thing and the shop space required to work the board is merely the length of the board. Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Midnight,You said it!Suddenly that $400 LN Jointer Plane is a great deal too....Jim
Jim... don't get me wrong... doing board perp by hand with half decent hand planes costs just about as much cash up front as it would buying wood munchers.. the benefits happen long term... think about it... you become an integral part of the process.... lean mean lovi... I mean woodworkin machine... n kiss gym fees goodbye... ;)
The health benefits aren't in the same league... regular work outs and never breathin dust filled air... downside is that everything takes a bit longer...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
It's a good bet that jointer plane will still be fully functional for my entire life. It's a pretty good bet the performance of the lunchbox won't be as consistent. :)
That said, I still use my 6" jointer and my planer before breaking out the planes, if the stock fits. Then follow the planes, and you can't tell the difference, all machine marks will be gone but I'll have saved some time. ;)My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
John
I share your approach. I am a hand plane and hand tool enthusiast. I get a greater sense of accomplishment when I complete something by hand. That being said, I still mill all my stock with the jointer (Northfield 12", not #7) and planer. Once I get the stock milled, I let it set for a spell(week or so), and then get at it with the hand tools.
I'm just not brave enough to hand prepare 200 to 300 bf of stock with a scrub and #7, scribe thickness, turn it over, and do it again! I'm way too 'results' oriented to take that long just to get the stock ready to work. I take my hat off to the fellas and ladies who do it that way, it's just not for me.
I guess I fit in the group somewhere between the hand tool extremists and Normites. I'll save you a seat.
Jeff
The closest thing I've seen to a metric was an assertion in one book that it was a day's work to prep 300 bf of stock. Clearly prepping the two faces is most of the work; 300 bf of 3/4" is going to take me nearly as long as 150 bf of 1 1/2" stock -- same face area! (If that's not clear, consider that a 12" x 10' 8/4 board is 20 bf, which will be far faster to prepare than two 12" x 10' 4/4 boards, which also amount to 20 bf).
I guarantee that I, a newbie, can prep 300 bf of easy stock, even including time to hand-plane off the planer, jointer and TS marks, in a workday. So in my own mind, the machines are indisputably time savers. In my own uninformed opinion, the final result of an all-handraulics (love that term, Mike Wallace -- did you invent it?) effort is visually indistinguishable from the method we're discussing.
I am accepting the assertion of wiser, more experienced people than me, that the all-machine method (machine sanding instead of planing) reduces the beauty of the wood. I'm not sure machine-sanding is faster than planing, anyway, though I'm sure I'd change my mind if I had a kitchen or three of cabinet doors to do.
I may one day follow the lead of those who prefer to work without the electrical machines entirely. I think I would like it, particularly in all-solid projects (does anyone work sheet goods with hand saws, etc.?); for now, even as a amateur, productivity's siren call outweighs the desire to feel closer to the work.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
In my own uninformed opinion, the final result of an all-handraulics (love that term, Mike Wallace -- did you invent it?) effort is visually indistinguishable from the method we're discussing.
I'll grant ya that there's no substitute for wood munchers when ya got some hussle to get goin.. and that visually there's no difference between your method and the all handraulic (btw I honestly doubt I can lay claim to it... tho I've never seen it before) other thannnn (wait for it) the label on the finished item that reads Made in (insert origin) from blood, sweat, toil, tears and a few choice cuss words... Oh... that's forgetting the pile of grungy laundry too but let's not go there.. Ahem...
Personally I take comfort in the fact that no electrons were harmed in the processing of my boards other than the 20 watts of the lightbulb (one o tham hi falootin hi-efficiency things)... ummmm does that make me a tree hugger..????
(does anyone work sheet goods with hand saws, etc.?)
ummmm.... been there, done that, wouldn't recommend it (least not when the handsaw would barely cut warm butter).... first ever project... had to resort to handraulics when the cordless circular saw blew up its battery.... learned more than a few lessons with that job....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Mike
Forgive me while I try to stop laughing!! :-) !! Woodmunchers...... elektrickery...... You're killing me! I loved your post!
Jeff
Why would I buy a new wooden or transitional plane, when I can go to this old dealer and have my choice of any brand and type from him at a fraction of the cost?
Maybe you like to spend money! I think the real question is why you'd want a transitional plane anyway...
From my experience with Bedrock Planes, it's almost as economic (money and time) to purchase new. Bedrock planes, those that L-N are based on, are expensive out here in the west. As people have pointed out, those that are in good condition tend to sell at prices close to a new one. If a new blade is needed, or if you decide to upgrade to one of the new chip-breakers... Add the time to clean it up. The factor in the the refinements made to the new planes, materials and such...
You shouldn't, unless you want something he can't supply.
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