Any of you who have seen my other post will see i’m having a real learning curve, though it feels for the most part I experience more of a curve than learning.
So, I do believe my sharpening skills have improved. I sharpen with a 3000 and 8000 whet stone, followed by a 16000 Shapton ceramic. As far as I can tell, they’re pretty sharp.
Despite this very quickly my chisel begin to blunt, and I just about make it across a piece of 140 x 18 mm beech and I feel i need to sharpen again. I could continue, perhaps, but the edge is noticeably dull.
There are a few things that I want to note, of which I have little experience, but enable you word working doctors to provide an accurate diagnosis:
1/ last week I enjoyed a spot of work in the blazing sun. I noticed my tools were hot, so promptly put them in the shade. Could my chisels have softened enough to cause any damage to the metal?
2/ when sharpening on the whet stones, I notice, and have noticed on several occasions. ‘striping’ of the stone (pictured). My suspicion was that the edge isn’t flat, however it presents a consistent bur and there is certainly no visible inconsistencies after progressing through the 16000.
3/ my work piece is clamped firmly to my desk with a scrap piece below it. I’m hammer my chisel with a hard rubber mallet, and can say that sharpness aside, I maintain good control over it.
Save me!
Replies
The sun can't alter the hardness of your tools. We'll, not unless you've been inside the orbit of Venus.
What angle are you honing? 25 or 20 degrees will dull much faster than 35 degrees.
Is it a brand new tool, not used before you bought it? Type? Brand?
1) the heat of the sun did nothing to change the metal.
2) Run your nail (not skin!) over the edge of your chisel, from corner to corner. You should glide smoothly from corner to corner. If not, then you need to remove more metal. Sometimes stropping temporarily fixes it.
3) The practical test of a chisel is whether it does the work you want to cleanly. An objective practical test (maybe not relevant to your work) is whether the chisel will pair end grain on softwood. You don't "need" the same sharpness for chopping out a mortise vs paring softwood.
You might want to check your bevel angle. 25-27 degrees is good for all-purpose work. Less than that may give you a slightly weaker edge.
It's also not clear what you mean by "very quickly" your chisels begin to blunt, and how dull is dull. I hope to not sound pedantic, but losing a super sharp edge is normal, especially if you're chopping into a hardwood. I tend to just take a swipe on my "finest" oilstone every few minutes, and that re-aligns the metal enough for a bit longer. If that doesn't work, I resharpen, which only takes 60-90 seconds vs 15 seconds of the re-honing. Sharpening is just a part of it.
Lastly, we don't know what chisels you're using. That can play a role, but I hesitate to recommend you get new ones. Getting into a good sharpening routine is infinitely more important than using the expensive chisels. I've used my "crappy" modern Marples for years with good results.
Is the back of the chisel flat and polished to the same degree as the bevel?
Also, a rubber mallet wastes energy, switch to a wood or metal banger and you'll get more out of your effort.
Agree that if you are getting a good edge that is not lasting;
- too little angle, maybe a micro bevel would help.
- steel quality, what make and model of chisel are you using as your example?
I have an old set of Marples that I actually got at Costco almost 20 years ago. Despite obtaining other higher end chisels, they still get plenty of use at the bench and hold up pretty well.
On my chisels that aren't PM-v11 I touch up often throughout an operation; much less often with PM-v11. If stopping to strop or touch up on a high grit stone now and again is your concern, I feel that is pretty normal. Also, a chisel that is sharpened to a usable state only requires a stroke or two to bring it back unless some damage occurs.
Hi Ya'lls!
@John_C2 Haha, no, though my head is in the clouds a fair bit I don't think I find myself that far out in the cosmos!
6 months old/Irwin Marples M444/ 25 degree primary, with a secondary bevel (a 180 degree twist on the wheel of my veritas guide, so a fraction of a degree on top of 25). All things consider, should I add a 5 to make a 30 degree micro?
@DustinDawind - 1/ thanks for confirming, 2/ have done, and seemed to be fine, 3/ thanks, i have a piece of pine here so after resharpening i'll go at that. By very quickly I mean I get about halfway across my work piece and can start to feel a burr. Perhaps that's normal? As a newbie learning to sharp maybe i'm being over particular. I first reviewed the edge when I started to have to fiddle a bit to locate my chisel in my knife wall.
Yeah likewise, I've invested in some new kit lately but i'm certainly not keen to go replacing everything for the sake of ease!
@_MJ_- yes, as I remove the burr and give the back a scrub up on the 16000 after i'm done with my bevel.
@GeeDubBee - Marpels M444, and they're carbon steel. Thanks for the insight.
I have much to learn but I always feel better after popping on here for a dose of wisdom :)
Do you regularly dress your stones on a known flat surface?
"Sharp" is two plains coming together to form a "long point" with no edge. Of course, in practice there is a teeny-weeny edge. But the ideal sharp chisel is one in which the bevel and the back, where they meet, are as smooth as you can get them so you can't see the edge.
Ideally also, you polish the chisel back once. It only needs to be polished and dead flat within an inch of the edge. The rest of it can be less polished but it and the polished section do need to be flat and co-planar. (A small hollow away from the edges is OK; any convex belly at all is no good).
A well-formed bevel & micro-bevel should also last well, with the ability to be stropped back to "sharp" a few times on a leather or wood strop impregnated with a fine grinding paste, before the micro-bevel needs to be re-sharpened on just the finest grade or two of your "stones".
As the edge blunts and you re-hone then resharpen the bevel side, you gradually move the edge back along the flat & polished side of the chisel, rubbing off only the miniscule wire formed when you sharpen the bevel side. You don't need to re-do the back until you reach the unpolished section (in 15- 30 years time).
The sharpening media is therefore quite critical. The first medium needs to be flat and rough, to make the chisel back flat and the working bevel parts evenly bevelled. All the subsequent sharpening media need to be flat too; and each grade should eliminate the scratches of the grade before, leaving it's own finer scratches instead. The finest grade leaves scratches all of which are invisible to the naked eye and so fine that the metal looks polished (mirror-shiny).
But it's easy to leave a few deep scratches from the flattening grades before the finer ones are applied. It's also easy (especially with water stones, oil stones and other friable sharpening media) for the sharpening medium surface to be insufficiently flat and so miss taking some of the deeper scratches from previous grades of stone.
The "plane some softwood end grain" test of sharpness mentioned by another poster is good because even if it shows the majority of the chisel is truly sharp by leaving a polished cut to the surface with no "wool", it can also reveal any deep scratch remnants in the chisel edge via faint tramlines in the polished surface.
Having such teeny nicks in the edge seems to make it degrade faster from use.
*****
The tradition is that hand-paring of easy woods (those that cut without a lot of resistance; or those without very hard sections of growth ring) requires only a 20 degree bevel with a degree or two more on a micro-bevel. You never hit those chisels with any kind of hammer but push them carefully by hand to pare off only very thin sections.
The next level is for bench chisels, that can pare by hand but also with the aid of a mallet. They can sometimes be used to chop (across the grain) with a mallet too. 25 degree bevel with a 30 degree micro-bevel seems to be "the standard".
Chisels that only chop, such as mortise or framing chisels, have 30 degree main bevels with a 35 degree microbevel.
The steeper micro-bevels make a stronger edge. But the less steep main bevels allow the chisel easier access to those parts difficult to reach.
Some advocate a 35 degree micro-bevel on all chisels, no matter what the main bevel angle. The 35 degree edge will still pare (and chop) but the 20 or 25 degree main bevel it's on can get into the inaccessible corners and crannies more easily. The 35 dgeree micro-bevel is probably more resilient and may stay sharp (enough for your work) for longer.
******
The metal that a chisel's made of makes a huge difference to it's cutting performance. Hard metals can last longer but they can also crumble more easily if the metal isn't highly integrated at the molecular level. Various heat or freezing treatments can re-order the metal at the molecular level to make them tough as well as hard. Japanese chisels back a thin layer of very hard metal with a thick layer of soft metal to reduce edge crumble.
Some (not all) cheap chisels have metal that's too soft. It curls over if sharpened to a good edge. Some are harder but still soft enough to wear down quite fast. Some are hard but crumbly. What are yours? Some are hard and very resilient, with Veritas PM-V11, Narex Richter steel and laminated Japanese Blue Steel having the best reputations for both hardness and resilience.
Tell us the manufacturer and model of yours and we can look up the metal used in them, probably.
Tell us the main and microbevels you put on them and how the softwood endgrain test looks after you sharpen one.
As others have noted, heavy paring cuts on a hardwood like beech using a mallet will probably need a 30 degree micro-bevel as minimum, whatever the chisel's made of.
Good FWW articles:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/tag/chisels
A good article (PDF version) from an old FWW magazine comparing chisels:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/membership/pdf/9465/011200038.pdf
The microscope photos of various edges and their wear are interesting.
Lataxe
For what it's worth - I have older Pfeil chisels that retain an edge better at 30° than at 25°. The few PM-v11 chisels I have retain an edge longer than the Pfeil chisels. I still use the Pfeils often because I have a wider variety of sizes.
Beech is around the same hardness as red and white oak. I would expect dulling faster than if I was doing anything on soft maple or poplar and re-hone more often. When you consider the hardness of the wood you are working, it seems to me you are not necessarily doing anything wrong, so much as you are working with a hard wood.
The fact is, the minute you use the chisel you start to dull it, just part of the nature of wodworking.
I have one paring chisel that I never strike with a mallet, and it is sharpened at 25 degrees. All of my other chisels and bench planes are ground to 30 degrees and honed at 35 degrees. 25 degrees is much too fragile for a bench chisel.
New tools sometimes can't hold an edge because the heat treating process loses the carbon along the edge. Grinding back an eighth of an inch usually gets to good steel that can hold an edge. But changing your angle from 25 degrees to 35 will get rid of most of that for you.
@Ben_M_CA - By dress do you mean do I flatten them on a flat surface or do I use them on a flat surface? If the former, I regularly flatten with my 300 diamond stone, if the latter, I sharpen on top of a t-shirt which is sandwiched between a couple layers of nonslip mat.
@Lat_axe - in regards to the back, what i usually do, once the micro bevel has been 'sharpened', I run the back over my finest stone and then get back to work. Perhaps I should be running through the grits on the back too? I know you said ideally it only needs to be polished once, but my thinking is that as its used scratches begin to for on the back, and thus the finish gradually diminishes.
They're definitely flat and belly free though!
How often should one flatten whetstones? I use 3000 and 8000 grit whet, and a Shapton 16000 ceramic stone.
"...it's easy to leave a few deep scratches from the flattening grades before the finer ones are applied." This is what I was concerned about when I got streaking on my whetstone. I thought perhaps the edge wasn't consistent.
"...The "plane some softwood end grain" test of sharpness mentioned by another poster is good..." How would I apply this to test out a chisel?
Thanks for the tips on types of chisels and performance :) Maybe I'll look at making my bevel even sharper.
My chisels are inexpensive Irwin Marples M444 made of carbon steel. They can be found on amazon under 'Irwin Marples M444 Blue Chip Bevel Edge Chisel - Set of 6'' (though i bought the set of four, and without the box).
"...Tell us the main and microbevels you put on them and how the softwood endgrain test looks after you sharpen one..." I just leave the primary bevel angle as it is, and add 5 degrees to make it 30. Also, still not sure about this endgrain test for chisels? Once I know i'm keen to get straight to testing that.
Thanks for the articles too! And thank you for always going into so much detail, its very much appreciated.
@Woodreb - thanks for your input :). It is encouraging to hear that.
@John_C2 - thanks John, understood. I think experimenting with some angles may be worth a crack, as well as learning more about chisels of course!
Outside of woodworking, one of my other interests is mycology. The reason I mention this, is because when sterilising equipment and substrates there are various controls that can be implement that enable one to establish the cause of contamination/failure should it occur. E.g. After sterilising a substrate, some of the petri dishes are left uninoculated; if the batch fails and these are contaminated you can essentially identify that it was poor sterilisation. If they're clean, the contamination happened at a later stage.
Is there a way to incorporate some controls with sharpening that would enable me to better establish where I went wrong? I must admit I can't imagine how, but then I lack experience.
Thanks everyone!
They may have not been tempered correctly at factory. The Marples brand was once made in England and I think they are know made in China. If this is the case you may try and return chisels.
Marples still make tools in Sheffield - but not the chisels, which are now Irwin-Marples. The latter is a big firm selling all sorts, much of which is made in places that are not Sheffield. Of course, that doesn't mean they are not any good but it's quite difficult to discover much about their manufacture or intended design properties.
I believe Irwin-Marples bought the right to use the Marples name for certain tools no longer made by the "real" Marples in Sheffield. They bought several other such old-world trade names. They advertise as though their current tools have somehow inherited the original manufacturer qualities, particularly those of the Sheffield makers. This is not really a true picture .... although some tools might be worse (e.g. Record planes) some might be better (might be).
Original Marples:
https://marples.co.uk/
Irwin Marples:
https://www.irwin.co.uk/tools/brands/marples
Lataxe
Coming at your questions from a different perspective - what kind of work are you doing with the chisels - paring, chopping mortises, chopping dovetails? Taking a heavy cut if you are chopping to clean up a mortise or a dovetail will dull the chisel much faster than taking light cuts. Trying to chop too deep all at once will dull your chisels faster.
Luke,
You mention that:
"......but my thinking is that, as it's used, scratches begin to form on the [chisel] back, and thus the finish gradually diminishes".
Possible but not that usual unless you have-at some very rough stuff. perhaps with nails in it. :-) Certainly edges can get chipped or a back scratched such that it affects the edge. But that's generally unusual as wood is a lot softer than steel. I'd only re-do a back if an obvious scratch occured that ran up to the edge and effectively caused a nick in that edge.
****
You ask:
"How often should one flatten whetstones? I use 3000 and 8000 grit whet, and a Shapton 16000 ceramic stone".
I don't (won't) use the things because most advice you read is that the things need flattening after every use. Some suggest that extensive blade preparation requires the stones to be re-flattened several times during their use! Tedious.
Better quality oilstones (such as Arkansas, which I have used in rounded forms to sharpen carving chisels) are a lot harder and are said not to require constant flattening as with waterstones. But they do wear so that when they have got dished, it takes a lot more effort to re-flatten them as they're so hard.
*****
The softwood end grain test with a chisel.
I have some spruce from the local saw mill, left over from some construction work in the cellar. It's soft and woolly but with alternating sections of harder late growth in the rings. It tears out if you just look at it! I keep a small chunk of 2" X 4" about a foot long for blade testing. It lives in the waste basket.
The idea is to put such a chunk - with the end grain resawn to be rough - facing up in the vise. Your sharpened chisel is then applied carefully to one corner so that it'll take a thin shaving of a few thou of an inch when you push it across the end grain surface. In fact, your first cut might result in a sort of dust as the rough and raggedy saw-cut parts are shaved off.
The cut should go easily without a lot of pushing; leaving a polished very smooth looking surface; without chopping the harder part of the growth rings (leaving teeny cracks or splits in them) or tearing out the softer woolly grain. Once the saw-cut hairiness is gone, you should be able to cut an end grain shaving so thin that it's translucent but that doesn't fall apart because it has tears or cracks in it rather than being very cleanly cut.
You can also look for the tiny track marks in the otherwise polished surface that will tell you if there's any nicks still left in the blade, probably due to scratches from the rougher "stones" that haven't been polished away by the finer ones.
*******
You can, if the steel is up to it, make an edge that is super sharp. The trouble is that it won't stay that sharp after the first couple of cuts. Wood and steel come to a compromise when the latter cuts the former. Both wear but hopefully the wood at a very fast rate (known as a cut) and the steel at a very slow rate (known as "staying sharp").
The edge of the blade, though, needs enough "thickness" to be strong enough to resist the pressure of the wood as it's cut. Personally I find that the edge that seems to stay the same in cutting ability for the longest is one sharpened only to about 8000 or equivalent on the other scales used to measure grit size. If the timber is a tough one, even an 8000 edge lasts just a few cuts .... so you might as well stop sharpening at 4000 ... or even 1000 for some timbers. That's still "sharp" but not so sharp that the timber being cut will unsharpen it to some less sharp wood-steel compromise immediately.
But most timbers (including most hardwoods) seem to be happy with an 8000 grit edge in that it lasts a goodly time, especially with modern steels like A2 and PM-V11. In fact, it's the softer woolly rascals (like that spruce but also cedar and some sapele) that benefit most from a super sharp edge. They cut cleanly even though the fibres are so soft they would rather tear than cut. And they don't wear as fast, since the timber is soft.
Mind, some of the "softer" timbers have part of their growth rings that are quite hard; or included stuff like silicates that will blunt a very sharp edge in no time.
*****
As I mentioned in that other post, some advocate a 35 degree cutting edge for most edge tools, even including paring chisels that traditionally have 20 degree bevels with only a degree or two (if any) added as a micro-bevel. 35 degrees does seem to cut the great majority of stuff well enough. But the centuries of tradition in which different cutting angles were evolved for different cutting purposes and materials must surely mean something.
****
Testing for good and poor sharpening results.
First is to feel for and hopefully find the wire edge. Until you've perfected your sharpening process, it's as well to clean off the wire formed from each grade of "stone" so you can feel for a new wire from the next grade of stone. Eventually you can just leave the wire until the last and finest grade, as you're then sure of your sharpening procedure.
The next test is that end-grain test. Does it cut a very clean face and take a non-crumbling translucent shaving? If not, you failed in the sharpening. If it does, are there any micro-tracks indicating a scratch or three left that're nicking the edge?
Another test is to look for the edge, perhaps with a magnifier. If you can see the edge, you've failed since an edge is, by definition, two dimensional. A bright line indicates a flat or rounded face where there should be a "long point".
You can also use a magnifier to see if your polished surface is really polished or still rather scratchy.
Will the chisel begin to cut if laid flat on a flat piece of wood and pressed down a lot as well as forward? A truly flat back right up to the edge will allow that edge to catch the wood fibres ahead of the blade edge if you press down hard enough to ever so slightly deform the wood into a teeny "hill" in front of the edge.
Does the bevel (and the micro-bevel) have a single plane of reflection or can you see facets? Facets are not good as they indicate that you've dragged the bevel or back over the sharpening medium at several rather than a single angle.
Use of a black marker pen to see where you've rubbed off metal and where you haven't can be useful at all stages of sharpening. Do one or three rubs with the stone dry to avoid any lubricant smearing the ink.
Lataxe
What are you flattening the stone with? I'm inclined to think you have grooves in your stone, hence the pattern. That would be a very unusual pattern for a chisel to make.
When flattening, I use a 300 grit mesh diamond plate and use a semi-circular motion, never straight up and down.
Since you're using a jig, you've taken the error out of the bevel.
My suggestion is re-evaluate your stone flattening technique.
FWIW I use the AHST to evaluate the edge (Arm Hair Shave Test). My wife can always tell when I've been busy sharpening I have no hair from the wrist down LOL.
@Woodreb - at the moment i'm just planing on practicing dovetails :)
@Lat_axe - Ah I had no idea! That's rather cheeky. Pretty hand trick to deceive a novice like me.
Okay understood! And in actuality whilst I can see the scratches, they are only light.
Yeah again it was price that swayed me towards whetstones. So for no I'll just have to get used to flattening them.
Thanks for your wisdom, it makes total sense actually. If a wood is harder to work, a stronger edge is required to get through it, which is achieved with a steeper bevel. A shallower edge will allow for the blade to cut through easier, which lends its self more to softer woods. Additionally, it makes sense that the finer my sharpening grit the finer - and therefore more brittle - my edge will be. It sheds some light on the quest for a 'stupidly sharp chisel', as I see written all over the place. Little (if any) of the material i have read/watched about getting your chisels deadly sharp even mention that it won't be great for all woods. It's clearly not a one-size-fits all method!
Now I can hear my beech wood laughing at me for expecting my shiny 16000 grit edge to get through more than a few passes before beginning to blunt. Who's laughing now! (still the beech, for the moment...).
I don't know why but I picture you as an owl with glasses on. Will you live in my shed and exchange knowledge for the occasional mouse?
Thanks for the test tips too, I have really clear idea of how to approach this now!
So based on these tips, here's what i'm going to do first:
1/ I'm going to resharpen my chisels in the same way I was doing originally, then use the softwood end grain test and make note of my results. I'll use this experiment as my control.
2/ next, i'll resharpen my chisel with a steeper bevel, then repeat the edge test.
3/ i'll resharpen at the same steeper bevel, but this time only sharpen as far as 8000 grit, then repeat the edge test.
4, post my results.
Wish me luck!
RobertEJr - I use a 300 grit diamond plate. Will re-evaluate as suggested :)
Haha to the AHST for me the tell tale sign is usually a few cuts where there were once hairs (probably from a less than perfectly sharp edge!).
I think it might be your chisels , try a chisel with better steel Pmv lie Neilsen Japanese chisels all much better steel and if price is a problem try narex . Hope this helps.
MuskokaLayne - Thanks, maybe you're right.
It's so frustrating! It seems i'm having to spend more and more money at every turn.
UPDATE
I decided that to begin with, before proceding to the endgrain sharpness test, it would be useful to go through the motions, starting from scratch with flattening a chisel back and then moving onto the bevel.
Working through the grits, I was the presented with a strange occurrence (strange to me at least). As I graduated through each grit, removing all of the scratches of the last grit at each stage, when I finally got the my Shapton 16000, I noticed that the stone was polishing from the centre outwards, almost as though the back had a belly on it??? This seems odd: If the chisel was flat, as it appeared to be given that finer and finer scratches at each stage replaced the more course ones from the stone before, how could it be bellied???
I went through this process a few times; after the second I flattened all of my stones, Shapton included, and tried again... Same thing! Either i'm missing something here or carbon steel has a very slow metabolism...
Luke,
The first possible culprit in any possible belly-making in the chisel-back made during the sharpening process is a dished stone, Water stones are notorious in their need for constant flattening. Is the diamond or whatever stone used to flatten your water stones itself flat? If it has a slight crown, that will impart a slight dish to the water stones.
Get the straight edge out and check.
The second possible culprit is your chisel back-flattening action on your stones. It's all too easy to concentrate over much on the blade back nearest the sharp end, which can have the effect of giving your chisel back a very slight bend or convex banana shape.
It is very slight, this banana - so if you notice the finest grade stone is the only one showing up this "polishing from the centre outwards" that's a sign that you may have the only-just-a-banana. The coarser stones make scratches deep enough that they overwhelm the slight banana shape.
Can you use a true straight edge to test for any bend, banana or belly in the chisel back, across its whole length but also just the first two or three inches next to the edge? If the latter is truly flat but the whole blade is not quite .... you made that banana.
If it is really slight, the banana, it may not matter. (You may not, anyway, be able to detect it with even the straightest of straight edges). When you use the back of the chisel as the jig to guide the edge on a flat piece of wood, you often use only the first inch or two of the chisel as the jig.
***
As with plane blades or any sharpened thing, the ultimate test is how it behaves when asked to do work. Does your chisel: cut cleanly with no tear-out or other raggedness; as easily as it should for the type of cut your making and the type of wood; as directed and accurately if jigged with the back of the blade to guide it? If so, you've sharpened your chisel. Perfect sharpness is like perfect anything - unattainable in the real world. "It works well" is what we seek.
****
I hesitate to mention it but if you want to drive yoursen mad with angst about perfect blade sharpness, look up and read the web stuff of Brent Beach. You will despair about wear bevels and their elimination - until you realise that your plane blades and chisels seem sharp enough and are working well, despite the lack of a multi-angled Brent jigging of the sharpening process to establish 6 micro bevels (3 each side of the edge). :-)
Lataxe
@Lat_axe -
Stones: yep, the diamond stone is nice and flat.
I was working the chisel up and down vertically. I checked if it had a banana, and its hard to tell; I did notice that when i checked across the full length my straight edge (ruler from an adjustable square; best I have) made contact at either end, with a bit of light passing through the middle of the length, as though it was hollowed handle to edge (though presumably this is as a result of the front end being ground down). First 2 inches from the edge: I think there is ever so slightly a rocking motion length ways, with the peak being at about 1 inch.
I just did the end grain test and it was a struggle. After a few passes, i notice the end of my blade has some tiny chips on it! If I run my finger nail along it i can feel them I thought carbon steel was hard? Lol (Again, am I being too particular?). Edge left behind on end grain is rough.
Haha, in the interests of avoiding total insanity i'll avoid that last suggestion, at least for now!
Luke,
MuskokaLayne might be right, you know - those Irwin chisels might not have very good steel in 'em. Irwin stuff seems very variable in quality going by various comments found about the interwebs.
If the steel is crumbly because not properly heat treated, for example, no amount of correct sharpening technique will get rid of the rough edge. In fact, the sharper you make it the more likely such steel is to do a crumble as the big "grains" of not very well aligned metal become weaker as the metal gets thinner.
They'll probably still work as chisels but not that well, with a rough cut and an inclination to dull quickly - which is what your postings seem to reveal is happening.
Alas, your wallet must once more be abused and the bairns will have to go without their toffees and gobstoppers for a month. See Mr Narex, is my advice, clutching a number (but not that many) ten pund notes. :-).
******
There's lots of information about tool steels on the web. FWW has a helicopter-view article:
https://www.finewoodworking.com/2004/04/01/woodworkers-guide-to-steel
Here's the blurb about Narex standard tool steel:
http://www.narexchisels.com/Narex_Chisels/Narex_Cr-Mn_Steel.html
Lataxe
What angle are you sharpening? If you went back to 25 degrees, stop. It's too shallow. Test again at 35 degrees.
Lat_axe - Okay, then it shall be done! These chisels only cost me £20 or something for a set of 5, and having subsequently discovered that they're made in china, perhaps all things considered I shouldn't expect too much.
I've been fishing around on the interwebs for chisels over the last week or so, and narex has come up a few times. However, i'm seeing a mixed bag of reviews about them too. I'm considering getting a few Robert Sorby bench chisels: They're made her in the UK in Sheffield, which in itself instils confidence, and according to reviews they "still make them as good as they used to". I can't say what their own brand of steel compares to, but I think its safe to say they know what they're doing! And for £100 for 3 (which is probably all i need at this juncture) I think i'm happy with that.
John_C2 No I stayed with 35 and they just wouldn't have it.
Buy one Lie Nielsen chisel. 1/2 inch. 80 percent of the time I'm using either the 1/2 or 3/8. It's well worth it. The quality us always excellent. The back is dead flat, and only needs a very little polishing. It will be your baseline to judge other edge tools by.
Quality costs money. I wouldn't trust others to start. I bought a Sorby long paring chisel a year ago, because they are literally the only ones making such a thing. The quality is not what it was 30 years ago.
You can spend a lot of time fussing with tools to get them ready. If that makes you happy, great. But if your goal is to have a tool to make things with, spend a few extra dollars and get to work. Just think how much time you've spent so far trying to get these chisels ready.
Luke,
I agree with John_C2 about Sorby - reviews tend to say: OK but not the best for the money. Most reviews seem to suggest that the steel is good but a little "soft" for bench chisels so have a shorter edge retention than others although they sharpen easily. They may also need more fettling (as do Crown, Henry Taylor and some others, as I can tell you from bitter experience). Sorby now seems focused on turning tools, really.....
If you want to buy British then Ashley Iles are probably your best bet. They get good reviews and are not inexpensive .... but not as expensive as some, by some margin. Compare:
https://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Ashley-Iles-MKII-Bench-Chisels-AIC.html#SID=180
https://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Lie-Nielsen-A2-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-LN-C-B.html#SID=195
https://www.classichandtools.com/acatalog/Veritas-PM-V11-Bench-Chisels-05S21.html#SID=1199
Iles have traditional handles, small shoulders (good access to corners such as those of dovetails) and well-tempered O1 carbon steel that sharpens easily but holds a good edge without the need for over-frequent sharpening (albeit not as long lasting i' the edge as LN Cryo-A2 and Veritas PM-V11).
Personally I'd buy Narex Richter, which are getting rave reviews for the quality of the steel and seem a similar price to Ashley Iles. Happily my bench chisel mix of original Marples blue handled, some bog-standard Narex and an MHG or two seem good enough. (I did have some Blue Spruce, which were very good indeed but rather too like surgical instruments than do-it-all WW tools).
I don't agree with John_C2 about just getting one half incher that will do most chiseling tasks. I have 3mm to 52mm with a number of in between sizes and I use them all. But it depends on what you use chisels for, I suppose.
Sets do save money over individual buys - if you need and use all in the set. Otherwise, you might have spent a lot on 2 chisels you use and 3 you don't.
Lataxe
PS I've been experimenting with back bevels on plane blades after reading that dang Brent Beach stuff. Perhaps another thread just for you. :-)
Hey chaps,
Ah well, see, here's the thing... I went to the wood shop and picked up 3 Sorby chisels before you guys replied. On the plus side, I did pick up 3 individual ones versus a set of 5 as I wouldn't use all 5 of them, so if it comes to it I can at least return 2, as I've started to work on one.
Yeah I totally agree. I've certainly spent an unfavourable amount of time on tool prep so far! That said, it has meant I've needed to spend some time learning about said tools which is not a bad thing (ignoring for a moment the few extra holes in my pocket).
Lataxe, I had read mainly good reviews, and sniffed out some bad ones once again i'm scratching my head as my experience, thus far, seems so different to that! I don't think i'd describe these as soft! Out of the box yesterday I flattened the back (I think he actually did it! Celebrate however you choose friends); I can't remember whether this was too difficult... I then got to work trying to get the bevel up to scratch starting on my 300 diamond. It ground very very slowly! Its not even done yet. I worked in rounds of 100 strokes, and must have moved through near 1k. After each round there was hardly any movement! I'm not far off, and have reached the small micro bevel, with a bit of work to do on one corner of the primary (not sure why they have a micro on, thy're certainly not ready to use). Either way, I can give my full analysis once i'm sharp.
Narex Richter - Are they the same brand as Narex?...
I don't know enough to be able to say whether the Veritas would be the only one that could take a mallet?
I'll try to buy British when I can, but i'd compromise over quality, especially at this stage.
Luke,
The pilgrim's progress is never an easy one. :-)
I too have found that remaking a main bevel with even the roughest diamond stones can take a lot of time. I bought a Sorby Proedge grinder to do that sort of thing.
But why do you need to remake the Sorby main bevel on your new chisel? Is it terribly wonky or at some mad angle? Normally they come with a 25 degree main bevel and that can usually be left as-is (i.e. rough-ground) if you're just going to establish a steeper and polished micro-bevel (or two) on the edge.
The idea is to make enough of a micro-bevel to:
* get past any scratches from the manufacturer's grinding of the main bevel;
* set the cutting angle of the chisel to what you want (e.g. 30 degrees rather than the 25 of the main bevel);
* make a polished surface and thus one half of a sharp edge at the tip or cutting end of the chisel on the bevel side.
The other half of the cutting edge is the flat and polished (at the cutting end) chisel back. When the chisel blunts, you just re-do the micro bevel until the blunt is gone again. The micro-bevel therefore grows a bit longer and eventually so long that you need to re-grind the main bevel then begin a new micro-bevel.
You should never need to polish the main bevel unless you don't use micro-bevels (which now counts as masochism).
On the back/flat side of the edge, you can usually get away with just removing the wire from the sharpening of the micro-bevel, which sharpening needs to take off enough metal (still very little) to remove the worn and slightly rounded edge on that flat/back side as well as the micro-bevel side of the edge. Once you have a wire, that's at least nearly there. A few extra strokes on the stone when doing the micro bevel is worth it to ensure any flat/back side wear is also honed past. A wire can form just before all that flat/back side wear is gone so the presence of a wire alone doesn't mean you're completely done with honing the micro-bevel.
*******
Sorby metal is not a problem, just not quite as sophisticated as some of the more modern stuff that's now available. Your new Sorby chisels will be far better than the Irwins. I feel.
Narex Richter are from Narex, the Richter name being the name of the firm's founder and now used to denote their up-market chisels. These have a different metal compound and treatment that results in a harder edge but one that seems to be more durable and tough than that of the standard Narex steel. It's said to keep an edge longer, not be prone to chip because brittle but still easy to sharpen. Some reviewers compare it's qualities with a good powdered metal like Veritas' PM-V11. You can read the Narex blurb on their website:
https://www.narextools.cz/en/bevel-edge-chisel-richter-8150
Here's a link to an extended (3-part) review by another magazine:
https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/narexs-new-state-of-the-art-chisel-part-1/
Basically their standard steel is heat treated in molten salt and requires no sudden cooling so the chisel blades don't distort as they can with more vigorous cooling methods like oil quenching. The steel has a Rockwell Hardness of 59, same as most standard O1 steel.
Their Richter steel adds a bit of vanadium as well as the chromium of the standard steel and also involves some cryogenic treatment (severe cooling) rather like that which Lie-Nielsen uses on their A2 steel. The Rockwell hardness is 62 but not at the price of becoming too brittle or hard to sharpen.
Or so says their blurb.
*********
Most bench chisels can take a mallet although you might not want to give them all the degree of wapping that you would a mortise chisel. Delicate builds like Blue Spruce are best pushed only by hand, as are any chisels made solely for paring (typically with a 20 degree main bevel and no reinforcement of the handle).
****
Buying from manufacturers of one's own country is a meaningful attitude only if those manufacturers hold to their part of such a contract by supplying goods fit for purpose in exchange for your loyalty as well as your money. Sadly, a lot of Western manufacturers have bought in to the least-costs (to them) biggest-profit (from you) mantra so they will happily sell you junk.
The trick is to find the exceptions. No Yank need worry about buying from Lie-nielsen, Blue Spruce or several other excellent manufacturers, as they embed their profit-making in an ecology of other ethical and moral considerations. For every such manufacturer, though, there are a hundred of the other sort and caveat emptor must be the first rule for all buyers to follow.
Buying from a dross-maker just because they're the same nationality as one is oneself merely encourages them to continue with the dross-making. In fact, they will put up the price and degrade the quality even more if they think they've got the loyalty of their dupes.
In Britain we still have a few survivors of the high standards of tool making once ubiquitous in places like Sheffield, Birmingham, Newcastle and similar centres of the industrial revolution. But they are few and far between now. Most stuff is of variable quality and from The Far East. Some is of good quality but a lot consists of TSOs (Tool Shaped Objects) that have a British Manufacturer label on them but are in fact made elsewhere.
Sorby still make their own stuff. They're just a bit slow at the R&D. :-)
Lataxe
Lataxe,
Well it wasn't wonky just a bit rough. I was under the impression that the primary has to be up to scratch before adding a secondary/micro bevel (as this is what i'd seen in a tutorial)... Oops, I guess I was wrong! 100 hours later... Lesson learned!
So, onto the Sorby's themselves... MUCH BETTER! So, on the advice of the pair of you here's what I did. After honing my micro as a fraction off of 25, I tried the end grain test. It was difficult, perhaps in part due to the end not being saw cut, and a bit wonky having tried the test before... However, it was noticeably better, though not super smooth. After a couple minutes small chips became noticeable.
Then, I re-honed the micro to 35 degrees. I had better results. The chisel doesn't slide through the end grain with ease, but the surface it leaves behind is much smoother, and the edge retention has improved greatly...
However... What got my really jumping for joy was the next test. i scored a knife wall along a piece of pine and a piece of beech, about 1mm from the end... I sat my chisel in the knife wall and took my mallet to it... WOW! It didn't mess about, and the pine got the hell out of the wall, leaving a very smooth end grain (there was some signs of compression, but I was moving 1mm thick at a time so probably to be expected in pine).
Next I repeated with the beech... WOW! Same again! Add to add to that, after a few minutes I still have what to eye looks like a strong sharp edge! I'm yet to test it for paring, but i'm very happy with that so far.
Yeah I totally understand, and I hope as I learn more about tools i'll be able to pick out those brands that are really worth their salt (fingers crossed for these Sorby's).
Great, i'll take a look at those for study purposes, but for now I think i'm happy to be sticking with these 3 Sorby chisels. I still need a plane, and once the Veritas bench planes are back in stock i'll place another order.
For now, hopefully, that is one learning curve momentarily plateaued!
Thank you all for your time, wisdom and encouragement. You're always so incredibly helpful!
Until the next time (oh, and there WILL be a next time, haha!), Stay cool.
I think it's because of bad quality and a desire to save money. You can't save money here.
I haven’t read through all the posts - but when I flatten a water stone I Scribble across it from edge to edge the length of the stone with a pencil. Flatten until the marks are gone, then so it again to make sure it’s flat. Water should shed evenly off the stone. A “wet spot” as it evaporates indicates a low spot. Sometimes I flatten again in the middle of sharpening.
Back of the chisel: only the last bit that goes into the wood needs to be flat.
Grits: you’re starting with 3000? Sharpening is a lot like sanding. You can get there starting with a higher grit but it will take a lot more time. I start a new chisel or blade at 300, then 800, 1000, 4000, 8000. The surface when done should be shiny like a mirror. You should be able to shave hair off your arm with it. Lots of good sharpening info out there, but some bad ones, too.
If you use a micro bevel, you only need to give that a quick touch up when it gets dull. Rework the full bevel when the micro bevel isn’t micro any longer.
For those interested in new chisels of good quality yet lower price than the US & Canadian prime brands, consider these:
https://www.dictum.com/en/western-type-babc/dictum-cryo-chisels-long-pattern-6-piece-set-in-wooden-case-701728
I think that these are Narex Richter chisels in disguise as they seem to have many of the same features, particularly the steel (the whole blade design, in fact). The Dictum brand/prices are, especially for those in Europe (including the UK) very favourable compared to the prices for Narex Richter chisels sold as such in most UK on-line WW emporiums.
Lataxe
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