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I am currently working on advertising for Marples Chisels and have some questions for people who use or take part in this craft. Why do you do woodworking? It is a tradition for you? When do you choose to work? Are their certain ways you feel after completing a job or while you are working. Do you choose a specific brand of tools, why or why not? Thanks for answering these questions.
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I choose to do woodworking because i enjoy it, and the money that i make on the side is just a bonus. this looks like a good opportunity to have an influence in some advertising, and what i would like to see from companies is how they make their tools and why their methods of manufacturing make such a good tool. generally i try to buy the best tools available, although sometimes i have to settle for second best. it is disappointing to see an add for a cheap tool being portrayed as the choice of professionals (unfortunately FWW has a few of these adds) i can see through all the hype that some companies put behind their tools, and all it does is make me lose any interest in their products. i don't want companies to tell me their product is good, i want them to show me that their product is a carefully made quality product, and then leave it up to me to decide if their product is good quality or not. if you can show what makes your product a good chisel then you don't have to convince me, i'll convince myself.
*Annie, are you here with Taunton's blessing or are you here on your own?Lee
*On my own...I am an advertising student at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and working to find out more information about people who are woodworkers.
*Annie - Take the time to real all the posts here on this forum, then set back and think about what you've read and about all the stuff that makes the world go round.
*I make furniture I can't afford to buy, and take great pleasure in knowing that the things I make will outlast me by a long shot. I hope some of my work will become family heirlooms. I like to picture my great grandchildren sitting in one of my chairs, dings and all. I get to indulge my typical male tool obsession, and my need for some solitary creative outlet. I like the smell and feel of the wood. I know I will never master this art, but it doesn't matter. On each project, I'm trying to do my absolute best. "The life so short, the Craft so long to learn." Make sense?
*Very helpful information for all who have replied. Keep it coming, it's helping! Thanks
*Why do you do woodworking? Because it is so far off from what I normally do for a living.It is a tradition for you? In a sense, yes. My father and Grandfathers (both sides) were always doing woodworking of some sort or another. I have many of their tools.When do you choose to work? For me its not when I choose to work, its when is the next opportunity to work. Sometimes after work but never when I'm really beat tired. The majority though is on the weekends.Are their certain ways you feel after completing a job or while you are working? That's a good question. When I'm working, I'm thinking about safety and the tasks at hand and that's it. At the end the work period, I am certainly more relaxed and less irritable. When I totaly blow it in the shop, I only have one person to blame. As far as satisfaction at completion goes, I'm not really sure that I have ever completed anything to my total satisfaction. Most of the time the satisfaction comes from the compliments of others. On the flip side of this question, there can be nothing more disappointing then delivering a project and the buyer doesnt even notice how well crafted the piece is.Do you choose a specific brand of tools, why or why not? Now here's where you should be searching on this site. We are constantly reviewing tools and manufacturers. We really do a pretty good job at weeding out the bad from the good. I have favorites that I buy even when the reviews are not best. These purchases are made based on the level of service I have received in the past. Good service and I'll buy it even if it has a little quirk or two.Thanks for answering these questions. And the final answer is...... drum roll..... Your very welcome, glad to help you in furthering your educational efforts.Steve
*I do woodworking because of the immense pride it gives me. It makes me proud to have family members cherish the things I make for them. People actually look up to me because I can build things out of wood that are better than you can buy in most places. (and I'm not that good yet, believe me!)I work wood whenever I have the time. It's usually about 10 hours a week. Sometimes, I'm just not in the mood and I'd rather sit and read or play Game Boy Advance.Once I find a brand of tool that has shown me good quality in the past, I keep buying them. If I have one product from a manufacturer that is sub-par, I will never buy anything from them again. (Stanley and Craftsman, for me) My brand of choice is usually not high-end brand, as I can't afford to have the best of everything. I buy the best I can afford though. The little details in a tool are a huge thing to me. I like the little things that I notice that make me think: "Someone has put some thought into this. I wonder whey anyone didn't think of this before?" For example: dust extraction column on my DeWalt router, side handle on my Milwaukee drill (even though it doesn't make that much torque, it comes in handy for grinding) I like to be able to think that the people who spend more than I do don't really get more functionality, just more polish. The people that spend less, get lower quality. That's about where I like to sit, as far as tool quality goes.
*These are hard questions. I started woodworking as a kid of 4 or 5 back in the sixties. My dad showed me some of it. Built my own desk for college. Saw a picture in architectual digest of a desk/table made of ebony and redwood burl veneer. Cost a holy furtune. I made mine from ebonized pine and redwood lumber with copper accents.Recently went to a furniture store in an affluent college town near denver and was told that the folks have money but little taste. So the furniture is not very good. Lots of MDF with veneer and light duty hardware holding it together. Drawers are very poor quality with printed woodgrain and not a dovetail in sight. Some quotes for modern stickly furniture have dinning rooms going for about 30,000 dollars. We can build better quality ourselves for a 2000 or 3000 dollars in materials max!The tools I choose are often used and always revered. I have many machines by companies like oliver, martin, yates, etc. I do use marples blue chisels as they are an excellent deal for what they are. Often, we cut the handles off and replace them with homemade hardwood handles. Looks great and works great.The complex furniture often takes weeks to complete one item. I cannot afford to charge folks for this labor and so I do not do it for profit. I do it for myself and close friends. Wonderful hardwoods have a look and feel that quite frankly, makes me druel. It is an attraction not dissimilar to a man seeing a beautiful woman. You either have the wood bug or you don't. For those who have it, its a life long quest to improve skills and indulge. Every year, I go to the woodworking show to see whats new, smell the dust, listen to the wood centric noise and to talk to fellow wood fanatics.Right now, my dream machine is to buy a brand new hofmann wood shaper from germany. It is the best wood shaper ever made and at close to 16,000 dollars is quite a capital investment. Do I need one? No. Do I have a business case to support one? No. I want one because I see the quality and feel of an extremely well made tool. For us, this turns us on like a ferrari would turn on a car buff. Does the ferrari do job commuting any better than a ford taurus? No, but boy is it a heck of a lot of fun to drive!I hope this helps. Good luck in your quest to try to understand the woodworker. And don't forget, there is always some Tim Allen in all of us somewhere.
*By the way, if you want to see the really hard core, you need to look at the badger pond web site and check out the neanderthal forum. For the record, there are three types of woodworkers: Neanderthals, Hybrids and Normites. A normite is one who uses power tools for virtually everything. Table saws and wonderful and the bigger the better. Neanderthals also known as galoots are those who use almost nothing but handtools. Sandpaper to this group is a sin and power is an ultimate sin. The hybrids which comprise the largest group of woodworkers are those who use a select group of both galoot tools or hand tools and power tools. They start by using heavy duty power driven saws and planers and finish with hand scrapers and lie neilsen class wood planes.
*Annie, I do woodworking because thats who I am, it's all I ever did. I don't remember it but my mother claims I could pound nails before I could walk. I started out being a machinist, had a really good job offer from Detroit Diesel, turned it down on the last day and ran off to become a carpenter. For me it's the challenge of building something special, I go out of my way and put my heart into every job, I like the feeling I get when the customer just beams with joy, I give them more than they expect. I consider myself lucky to be able to live where I do and make a living at what I do best. Since my tools are also my toys I have the money to buy top of the line, I'm also fortunate that my darling wife never complains about me being a tool junkie. When I buy tools I do a search in the magazines as well as the break time posts. My policy is buy good stuff and buy it only once.
*I work wood because it combines a lot of things I happen to like to do. I like designing things that are functional, beautiful, and a little offbeat. Learning keeps me interested and fresh, and one can never know all they need to know when working wood. I like the smell and feel of cut wood and finishes. The tools are a wonderful blend of tradition and innovation. At least as I practice it, the hobby costs a lot less than golf. Lastly, I enjoy the apparent appreciation that my pieces receive with family and at work.Woodworking isn't a tradition for me. I'm the first serious woodworker in my family tree. My mother commented upon feeling the finish on one of my modular bookcases that my grandfather in retirement tried woodworking but never got surfaces like that. I have always made things, though. I started cobbling things together from scraps and junk in my father's garage. I took shop in junior high school, and a furniture building course in college. When we finally settled in our current home 11 years ago I took the chance to start working wood more seriously.I work wood in the evenings and on weekends. I don't get much time in because of work and family duties & pleasures, but I'll keep learning and creating at my own pace - probably for the rest of my life.I feel proud when a project comes out well. I feel sleepy too because I often stay up too late in the shop and have trouble sleeping with detailing challenges dancing in my head. I don't get paid for this, and often spend a tremendous amount of time on small and unusual projects simply for the mental challenge.I am not stuck on any particular manufacturers, but have objective opinions on which limited set of tools is right for each job. Sometimes I am fortunate enough to have that tool. Sometimes I don't because what I have works well enough and I'm too cheap to switch.I have a set of Marples Blue Chips. They are an excellent value, but not my favorite chisels. I haven't found the steel to hold an edge very well. Moderately well, and acceptably well, but not very well. The plastic handles feel cold and unfriendly to my hands. The chisels are a bit heavy for my tip-held working style.The recent Marples ad campaign somewhat galled me. They were pushing the chisels as if they are the best to be had, but I think their strong point is their value instead.The best chisel in my collection is a Stanley 750 made in the middle of the last century. It is tough, easy to sharpen, light, uses socket design instead of the currently favored cheap tangs, and has a gorgeous shape. Search for "Stanley 750" on e-Bay to get a look at this chisel type.Best of Luck!
*I would like to thank everyone so far for helping me so much in this quest for knowledge. You all sound like wonderful people who take pride in their work and craftsmanship. Thank you for sharing your insight, it is greatly appreciated
*Maybe you could recommend Marples take an honest approach to advertising (a rarity indeed...) Something like this:Marples Chisels....pretty damn good for being so cheap.
*I woodwork to keep my sanity. I work in a school technology department all day (some nights, and many weekends) and get really tired of broken things that plug in.By Dev Emch's post, I'm a hybrid. I do most of the cutting with power saws, drill press, etc, but cut dovetails and mortise and tenon joints by hand. My smooth plane and jack plane are cared for like children.My father and grandfather started me in woodworking. Dad runs a re-finishing business (he's in his 70's), and I always liked the fix and sand part of his business.I work in the shop whenever the weather permits, and I have the time. My shop is partially outside, so wet weather stops nearly everything.The way I feel after a project/job? Depends on the job. I make a lot of toys for my grandsons and other kids in the neighborhood. That is a lot of fun, and I love the look on their face when you can give them a wagon or car or game. Making furniture gives a lot of long term satisfaction, as its a lot harder to outgrow a dresser than a clunky wooden car made for a two-year old.As to specific brands, I usually buy what I have had some experience with. I'm not a pro, so I don't usually buy the very top of the line in most things, but I try not to buy junk. I avoid some brands, just because I've been burnt. When I find some brand of something that I like, I try to stick with that brand for similar items.Good luck with your research...
*Annie,I'm heavily leaning towards deleting this post and the only reason I am not deleting it is that our members have provided some great information that may help others in their woodworking, i.e. that's what this forum is all about! It's not here for companies to use it as a cheap way to get market data.I have no doubt that tool companies read this forum for information purposes, that's fine. But directing a forum question to gather market data leaves a bad taste in my mouth.In the future, please refrain from directing questions with this intent. Use your own forum.Tim
*Annie, I make my own furniture because being strictly a consumer makes me sick at my stomach.Or, to quote a friend: "F*** Martha Stewart, She's polishing the brass on the Titanic. The whole thing is going down."I love Marples tools. I own a set of chisels. Someday I'll invest in some heirloom quality ones, but they do O.K. for me now.
*Tim,Welcome back! I agree with you and would like to see future posts of this type deleted. One could argue however that if the group felt that way they would not respond. It would be especially iritating to see these responses quoted or paraphrased in their ads. I think this group, especially the regulars, represent the best woodworking resource on the net. I'm actually surprised that any responded to this.TDF
*Tim, my first thought was that it was inappropriate but the round door incident is still fresh in my mind so I went ahead and responded positively. I didn't want to have to change identities again. LOLSteve
*I guess, being an ex market researcher, I have a little more sympathy for Annie on this one. I know we're all fed up with the flood of E-mail ads we get, but genuine market research is a socially good thing. It helps manufacturers better understand the wants and needs of their customers and often results in product improvements.Annie, my shop is my chapel. I go there for the solitude and also for the reward I experience in designing and creating useful, one-of-a-kind things. I appreciate durable, dependable and affordable tools, but I don't collect them as objects of art...and I don't buy them until I come up against a job that cannot be efficiently handled with the tools I already own.
*I agree with Dev, I venchure to Badger Pond web site all the time...They have cost me MUCHO $$$ (it gets addictive buying all the QUALITY tools) HAving learned so much more in the last 6 months, and still learning of course.. I do notice my work is Improving!! BTW I use Marple chisels
*I would like everyone to know that I am an advertising student at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln and this is just an assignment for my ad class. For any advertiser whether it be in school or in the work force to correctly advertise your product you must correctly understandyour consumer as the user but also as people. I will not use any of these quotes in my advertisements, as I do not have permission from the individuals, but I do appreciate all the thought and time people are taking to respond. If all companies did this they may realize they are marketing wrong or that their products do not meet consumer satisfaction. I though want to understand and thank all who have helped. Sorry to cause such a ruckus.Annie
*Annie, You approached this exactly the right way. I too really would hate this site to become just an advertisement source but your approach was respectfull and it helped that you wanted to know rather than came with an agenda. My first inclination was to ignore this and wait for it to be deleted but in the end I'm almost glad it wasn't.
*Gawd, I’m such a cynic I don’t know how I sleep with myself at night...Annie, if that’s your real name, it’s remarkable to me that Tim Sams let this thread stand, you owe him a debt. Here’s my problem...Firstly, you are an advertising student. Advertising has one goal, sell product.You come here seeking the touchy-feely part of the image that appeals to these guys, not the nuts and bolts aspect like “What do you guys like in chisel steel, tool handles, handle shapes, etc? You are seeking the image to create to sell Marple’s chisels without regard for the quality of the product itself. You’re not looking to sell a chisel, you’re looking to sell an image.But...I’ll give you a chance. Which Marple’s brother are you working for? Be very careful, this is absolutely a trick question. What company are you working for? Yes, it’s another trick question. What is the steel in Marple’s chisels these days? Tell us, Annie, about the handles. Be very careful, sweet Annie, I know the answers. Oh, I also know the webmaster at another site that immediately deleted your queries since you posted them under two different names, “Annie” is such a sweet name...I don’t doubt your sincerity but it’s the image you’re looking for and not the substance of the tool and that’s the burr under my saddle. I’ve done a few product reviews for FWW and I’m surprised this thread is still is here since the editors I’ve worked with on the reviews have always stressed the importance of an honest evaluation. Your “image seeking” is contrary to FWW’s approach. I sent an e-mail to you, Annie. I hope it’s not returned to me an undeliverable.I’m happy to take the grief, you guys, if you feel I’m being too hard on this, perhaps I won’t sleep tonight I’m such a sourpuss.Lee
*Crabbit b*gger, Lee, but there ya go, ha, ha.Why do you do woodworking? b It's my job.It is a tradition for you? b No.When do you choose to work? b I don't choose. It's customer driven.Are their certain ways you feel after completing a job or while you are working?b Yes. Hurry up. It's time to send out the bill and get paid.Slainte, RJ.
*Cool, another sourpuss!Hey Sgian, you've been so silent I figured you were in Scotland schmoozing.Lee
*Thanks Lee!Tim, are you listening?Jack.
*Well Lee, since you asked...I guess I am a little surprised that a normally nice guy like you would start beatin' up on a coed. You're gonna feel awful bad when she posts a copy of her transcript and it turns out she really is a hustling corn husker.
*Jon, I've little doubt she is indeed a Cornhusker. That is not the issue, heck, I've got family in Nebraska!I suppose what would be really hilarious is if Annie turned out to be a fullback for the Cornhuskers with hairy arms and all and he decided better results would be obtained with a name like "Annie" instead of "Butch". The other name she used was "Maggi" or something close to it. Lee
*To the disbelievers, So you guys don't believe. I'd love to post my transcript. And Lee, I have lived in Nebraska my entire life. I am a proud Cornhusker and a proud student of the Journalism College at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln. My entire family lives in Nebraska, my grandfather had a hobby of woodcarving and I take pride in the lasting pieces he left with us. So if I was able I would speak with him I would but he passed away a few years ago. So I'm sorry that I had to turn to you. If you didn't feel the need to answer my questions, you didn't have to. But since you did it shows to me that you care enough about your craft, your pride and the honor that goes along with creating pieces of art. I'm not looking for touchy, feely answers. I'm looking for honest reasons as to why people are interested in woodworking, what tools they choose. And I'm learning more and more that Marples aren't the greatest. Hard to do advertising for something that people aren't excited about. And I'm finding that out. But I wouldn't have found that out had I not posted questions and gotten wonderful responses from people who do this craft. Some tell me they don't use chisels but greatfully volunteer information to help me. That's all I'm looking for. I am not a paid advertiser. I'm just trying to learn how to do advertisement that work and part of that is learning about the people who use them. Since I don't use chisels and do not do any woodworking I wanted to know why people found such an interest in this, why they choose to continue, why they would take the time to answer my questions. And for that sir, I am sorry to have bombarded this sight with questions trying to learn about a craft you obviously care a great deal about. I was not looking to sell Marples chisels, only looking to learn about them. I've done pleanty of other work about the chisels. In class I've recieved information from the company and that's all I have to work with. I am not able to tour the plant, or watch the wood being chopped to make the handles, or go deep under the earth to watch the steel being extracted from the earth. I must deal with what is given to me and search for new information. We were encourage to search "the net" speak with people and learn as much as we could. With all of the good information I've recieved I feel that I will be able to make a more informed advertisement. If you like I'd enjoy sending you a copy of the final advertisement.
*Annie, I'm kind of intrigued. Interesting to hear of your motivation for posting in the first place. It comes across as genuine student research rather than a devious ploy from the manufacturer. Contributors here have very sensitive antennae for anything that looks suspiciously like 'advertising', or similar. Marples know just fine that their chisels (and the rest of their tools for that matter) aren't the answer to everyones' prayers. They make middle of the road tools for a middle of the road market, and many people will find them useful. I'd buy a Marples chisel before I'd buy any Japanese chisel. I find the Japanese tools I've used very uncomfortable, especially their chisels and saws, and I've used both; they're all bass-ackwards to me, yet if you hang around long enough you will find plenty of western woodworkers that love Japanese tools, including the chisels. It's personal. It doesn't make me a better woodworker than the Japanese tool fan; all it tells you is that I'm comfortable with western style tools. Nearly all my regular bench chisels are British Stanleys, which are a wee bit different to American style Stanleys by the way. But it's still the case that furniture making is a just job for me,and if I could think of an easier way to make a living that I had a talent for, I'd drop furniture making like a hot potato. That's not meant to be as cynical as it might sound. I just don't have any dreamy, starving artist illusions about earning money as a furniture maker after all these years. Slainte, RJ.
*Annie, I'm curious as to why you might have chosen Marples. Are you doing an internship with this company or possibly the advertising company that handles this account?As a journalism student, you might want to curb the run on sentences. And please, don't start a sentence with "And". Humor intended.Steve
*Annie, I believe your intentions are good ones. I misunderstood your original query in which you stated you're working for Marple's chisels. If this is a project for a class and nothing more then I apologize. If this project of yours will be passed on to the company for the purposes of advertising I would still push to have your thread deleted. After all, how would it strike you if a Slim Jim sales person pulled up a chair and sat down with you and a group of your friends at a local bar and asked "Why do you eat dried sausage?"This is a forum for woodworkers and I consider it an invasion for a company to use this forum for the purpose you have chosen if Marple's will benefit from your research.Again, if this is nothing more than a school project I apologize. Your e-mail did not bounce. Had I known, and I'm still not certain, that this was simply a class assignment I'd have probably given a response more useful to you.Help me out here, will this project of yours be passed along to Marples?Lee
*Annie, I was a marketing major in college and took an advertising research class much like the one you must be in now...Of course, the hot new medium back then was black & white television...but I understand what you're trying to do. And I hope Tim will let you post the layout or storyboard you come up with...And by the way, I'm a professional write (of sorts anyway?)...And I begin a lot of sentences with "And"...and even a "but" now and then. Forget the grammar Annie, the only thing that counts is getting the point across. I'd say, forget the spelling too. But the editors will never let you get away with that.
*We are given five companies we have to do advertisements for at the beginning of the semester. First we started off with a local flower shop, then we had to do a three poster ad for The United States of America and send it into a ad competition, now we're working on Marples chisels, next we have Kawasaki and finally something for our state fair. She just picked these companies so I had no decision in Marples chisels. I didn't even know they existed until last week. As for the run-on sentences, I'm a horrible writer. And for an advertising job I do not want to write copy for ads, I want to do the visual elements. But I am trying to curb the run-ons and grammatical errors. My english teacher mother would have a fit.
*Just sittin' on the ol' fence watching and reading this go by, interesting. I enjoy woodworking, carpentry and just about anything that gets my hands dirty. I enjoy understanding "how things work", it just so happens that I have more wood splinters in my hands because wood is just what I like. I enjoy it as a hobby and occasionally it makes me some jingle, yet I enjoy the wide eye of appreciation and thanks more than anything. As far as tradition is concerned, I like the tradition aspect of woodworking very much, working with wood is an honorable profession. I 'spose that I have something in my genes that pre-disposes me to this interest but both of my grandfathers were "handy" and if that means anything, I should've gone into electrical engineering or fuel oil/gas storage/delivery, so who knows. The fact that I had nails, boards and hammers placed in front of me since 5 (exact age?) may have something to do with it too.I do woodwork; a. when I have the time, b. out of a need to get away from everything, c. not in that order. Sometimes just being in a shop, what I have for a shop is all that I need to relax and it might be just to sweep up or sit down with a cold one and reflect. I don't have a specific brand of tool(s) that I enjoy or buy all of the time, I usually save for what I what from the top of the shelf, hand or electric. I don't have any Marples chisels, all of my chisels are pre-40's no name tools that do right by me. Hope this helps, :-] good luck.
*Annie,At first I figured you had a tough assignment - creating a top-of-the-line image for a good but run-of-the-mill product. Then I remembered that advertising is all about that. The best companies and products usually don't need advertising. Now that I think some more, it seems that advertising only has 2 goals:-- Increase awareness of a quality product to increase sales.-- Improve the image, usually artificially, of a product.Ads when I was a kid (30+ years ago) were mostly clean photographs with information conveyed through ad copy. Current ads seem to be more image and less content. I don't think it has to be either/or. You can build an image and provide meaningful content. I challenge your final advertisement(s) to include the answers to every one of Lee's obnoxiously stated questions without detracting from the image. And I mean EVERY one. Don't bother calling the factory to get them; have Lee give the answers to you.Speaking of image...maybe it's just me, but I think woodworkers respond better to shop scenes that appear to be real. Visit a newstand to get my meaning. Look at articles in American Woodworker. Then look at articles in Fine Woodworking. See the difference? AWW is shot in a studio with models. FWW is shot in real shops with the people who do the work. The most convincing arguement for Marples chisels that I have ever come across is seeing them hung on Mike Dunbar's wall in the background of an article photo.Most woodworkers I know are very reality-based. The New Yankee Workshop makes it look easy, but the harsh realities of creating seemingly precise and perfect results from this fickle medium hit you fast. It is possible to skirt some realities (sanding verus planing, for example), but there is little fantasy world for folks in this pursuit.Regards,Dave
*Jack, indeed I am listening and reading. Annie, I believe you are who you say you are. Even still, I think your question was bad etiquette. Coming to a woodworking forum and jumping in to get to know us as consumers is bad form. There are other ways to get this information and you should use them--the fact that you're a student does not excuse bad form. You can, for free, read our forum and ask questions off line and get just as good information.The *way* you go about gathering information is sometimes as important as the information you get. Tim
*Because chicks dig it of course:)Actually there aren't that many woodworking groupies beatin' down my door. I started doing it out of economic necessity. After I got to know what I was doing I did it because I can do it better and cheaper than I could buy it. I also do it for therapy from my day job. I do a half dozen or more commissions a year to make my wood addiction pay it's own way. Once my kids are through school, I'll do it full time. I make my tool buying decisions based on value and my perception gained by observing professionals or research on my own. I'm a cynic and enjoy picking apart ads for sport, (I'd tell Pepsi to Spear Britanny!). I won't ever buy a Forrest Saw blade because I won't pay for those full page adds in FWW. My sharpener says Systematic & FS are the best for the money, so that's what I buy. If I needed a portable tablesaw I'd go by a Makita in a heartbeat, because out of every 10 finish carpenters or cabinet guys I've seen on the job or on the road 9 of them are toting a Makita. Planes are an exception for me. I have some old Bailey's a Record and a few Lie Nielsons. I am a hybrid woodworker. Truth be told, in my hands, the LN's are probably not achieving their true potential. It's just lust.FWIW - I have a full set of Marples Bluechips from 1/8" to 2". I know why the name includes the word "chip" and the handles are blue, so I guess there is some truth in advertising afterall. I bought them because the big orange box used to carry them and the yellow tagged them out real cheap.
*Jon Arno --Thanks for jumping in, in defense of "and" or "but" as the first word in a sentence!Those poor words, undeserving of such abuse. Somewhere along the line, a grammar teacher got a bug up her bum about these two words and it's been a lost cause ever since. First-graders around the world are terrified of starting their sentences improperly.And while they shouldn't be overused, they are an excellent means of emphasizing the point(s) to follow! David
*I think that Bill Richardson has the most accurate statement of why the general population does woodworking. Appreciation shown by the people we give our creations to, the retreat from the everyday grind, and our need to obsess about something harmlessly. My wife has found me many times in my shop with my feet on the bench in a comfy chair made for the purpose, whittling away at a pieces of scrap. Having a Cold One.We all have the need to have our thing. THat just happens to be Woodworking to me.JayP
*Guys,This girl.....if you can believe that....I tend to side with Lee although he is waffling now....has got you wrapped around "her" finger. You have been charmed to the max and now she is in control. Each one of you has tested the waters of disbelief and then answered the question after she tells you of her poor dad and how she needs your guidance etc. I think I might throwup!TDF
*We are given five companies we have to do advertisements for at the beginning of the semester. First we started off with a local flower shop, then we had to do a three poster ad for The United States of America and send it into a ad competition, now we're working on Marples chisels, next we have Kawasaki and finally something for our state fair. She just picked these companies so I had no decision in Marples chisels. I didn't even know they existed until last week. As for the run-on sentences, I'm a horrible writer. And for an advertising job I do not want to write copy for ads, I want to do the visual elements. But I am trying to curb the run-ons and grammatical errors. My english teacher mother would have a fit.
*It seems to me that several things could have been done better here that would have cleared this up sooner and produced a better thread."Annie", you would have done well to better explain your reason for being here in the first place. Your initial post does read like you work for Marples, and it was a day later that you finally said you were a student. Somehow I suspect your professor never said anything about not using this approach on a commercially sponsored forum because it might cause the problems it has. Any other students in the class doing the same thing?Tim, or anyone else here, could probably have contacted the above named school for confirmation of the class and the assignment. Shouldn't be necessary, of course, but it could be done to verify any details. Perhaps a Taunton rep should contact the prof anyway to explain some of the finer points of "good form" as it relates to the students and their approaches to interviewees. None of us was under any duress to respond to any of the questions Annie posed. If you did answer them, I assume you accept her story. If not, why answer? It would only serve to support a bogus question. A lot of the more distasteful threads could be eliminated or at least shortened if no one responded to the bait, but I guess we all like to be the terrier shaking the rat sometimes.Ever tried toothpaste......? :)Lee Goehring
*I think it would be best if this entire thread was deleated. It still seems to be causing some problems and I would feel better if the editors of this sight just deleated it so as to not upset anyone else. Thank you all for your time, words, effort and suggestions. I appreciate it.
*For Jay Pierce, Thank you for your kind words, heres a cold one for you :-] For Annie, et al, Maybe I overlooked something in Annie's post, I took it for what it was on the surface. Don't be too discouraged, if you are really a student-good luck in the future. If you are not-shame on you. Have a nice weekend everyone.
*b Excuse me Tim, I should have known better.The only "SPAM" I've been hit with (only two so far) has come from some company/salesman that has seen me on this site. I must admit I have a general distaste for advertisement because of the inundation of falsehood. And when someone comes on this site with the purpose of gaining information for advertisement of any form, whether it be education or application, I get somewhat protective.If Annie gets away with going this far, who's to say what the next person will get away with?No offense to Annie. If she's truthful about her claim of being a student, then the affront is excusable. If not, then she will do OK in the business of advertising.Jack.
*Sheesh...Character AssessmentArno............5Grindinger...0
*How're you scoring this, Lee...like golf? Truth is, she had me from the get-go...and probably just because she came off like a sweet little coed.
*Golf? nah, first one to ten wins...Lee
*OK, I'm coming out of hibernation for this post, because it highlights exactly the reason I stopped posting here. Unfortunately, Knots has become just as uptight and ridiculous as so many other Internet bulletin boards. I know this from personal experience, and now I see it directed at others as well.For a thread that should have been deleted, it certainly generated a lot of discussion. Seems to me that if Annie really bothered all of you, you'd simply not respond. Instead of remaining silent, so many of you chose to interpret Annie's post from a cynical point of view -- you assumed just about everyting EXCEPT what she actually said she was doing. Reading over these posts, I see no reason to believe that she is anything other than what she says. When I was in college, I took a couple of classes which involved very similar kinds of real-world research.I'm not saying that I know anything about Annie, only that it's strange how people can form grotesque opinions and spend so much energy on something that has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.Very sad.
*Allright, allright, allright...Character AssessmentArno...........5Schenker.....4 Grindinger..0You only get 4 'cause you showed up late.I'll accept my due flogging when Annie returns.Lee
*Good for you, Lee. I'm with Matthew, I've been watching this post and found it as ridiculous as the round door thing. What's with all the animosity? a simple question was posed - if you don't want to answer it, don't answer it. In fact, you guys, if you are concerned about advertisers, think about it - suppose an advertiser actually came on and asked questions. If we simply ignored them, they'd go away, wouldn't they? geez, I thought I was an angry young man. ok, well, maybe not so young anymore...by the way, I wonder how some of these responses would look if Annie the coed were Arnold the student. some of you need to get out and mingle a bit, I think...;lsb
*Matthew, I pretty much agree with everything you say here. I too took Annie for what she professed to be (and apparently is.) The only point you make that I would disagree with is that this thread "should have been deleted." Personally I enjoyed hearing why other wood workers are drawn to wood working...and it's comforting to know that so many are into it for the same reasons I am. I don't like sensorship, because it presupposes I need to be protected from the opinions of others. I didn't post on this thread until that issue was raised. Also, I wouldn't boycott a board because I disagreed with what others were posting. I'd only drop out if I felt it wasn't providing information that was useful to me. Sometimes you have to sift through a little chaff to find a kernel or two, but that's the way it works in a free society...And I wouldn't want to see it any other way.
*"Sometimes you have to sift through a little chaff to find a kernel or two, but that's the way it works in a free society." -- Jon ArnoHear, hear.David (occasional creator of chaff)
*Wow, what a long thread, apparently some real nerves were struck here. If I were new to the forum and only read this thread, I might think twice about coming back. I definitely got the impression that the forum is under a massive siege from a terrible Enemy-- not just Annie, but what she represents, the unthinking, unfeeling Advertising contingent. Personally I'm glad that it wasn't deleted- it makes for some pretty entertaining reading. Rather than express my opinions on Annie and her research (ooh, the suspense.. ha ha), I'll simply contribute the following question: Isn't it funny to notice the sort of things that people can sometimes feel threatened by? Best to all,Chris GleasonGleason Tableworkswww.interestingfurniture.com
*Jon Arno,I didn't mean to say that Annie's thread should be deleted. Like you, I'm also very strongly against censorship. I was only picking up on what others were saying -- in other words, seemed like the very same people who thought the post should be deleted were spending a lot of time writing about it!I believe that more good comes out of full discussions -- even if they are difficult -- than out of silence.Believe me, I've been the target of those who are more into control and silence.
*Am I wise? Probably not...You guys now have the benefit of the entire thread to form your opinions with. Had I been in Tim Sam's shoes I'd have deleted Annie's thread as soon as I spotted it, in fact I sent him an e-mail as soon as I did spot it. Go back and read Annie's first post, just her first. She states very clearly that she is working for Marples. Now, should the door be opened for advertisers and marketers this forum would be innundated with solicitations and all of you guys would be down the road.Getting the whole story from Annie was like pulling teeth.You guys seem to hate the people with the swords but you sure seem to like this forum that's clear of the spam and advertising. Do you really think this is possible without someone like Tim Sams wielding a sword cutting advertisers off at the knees before you see them?Get a grip, you guys. Lee
*Why don't we get rid of this thread? Still seems to be causing controversy and I haven't written anything for a few days. I just assumed it had all ended. Glad I could conjure up some discussions.
*Ah c'mon, Annie, this thread has a life of it's own now.Join in and give us your views.No one here has any animosity towards you now, particularly me. Don't take anything said here personally.Lee
*Well okay Matthew, it looks like you and I, at least, think alike...Except you're a better speller. ...Poor Annie, she's gotta be thinking she got on the wrong bus and this is a Psych 101 field trip to the State Asylum.
*Hi Lee--You make an interesting and probably important point: sure, folks like a forum that is free of advertising, but kvetch when someone (Tim) steps in to moderate things (your colorful sword analogy). My question, anyway, is how often does this happen? Is this a relatively isolated thing or are there constantly people trying to post advertising-related stuff, and Tim (or someone else) censors them before they get to us? I'm not asking because I'm trying to fuel some controversial fire, I'm just curious. Is there really an imminent threat of this forum becoming watered-down with advertising, or is this more of an academic argument?Sounds like a situation where a citizen wants freedom, but won't support an army that protects his freedoms? I don't want to get too political here, but it is an intriguing parallel.BestChris GleasonGleason Tableworkswww.interestingfurniture.com
*Furniture costs too much and is shabbily made. Make you own and blame yourself only if you don't like the final results.Frank
*Chris,I'm dialed into two woodworking forums on a regular basis and know that both have similar policies. Were threads that advertise or solicit marketing information allowed to endure I'm sure the flood gates would open. As it is right now I'd guess one a week on the average gets deleted. Speaking for Tim is impossible to do and he won't stumble into his office until Monday morning.Frank, HUH???Jon, can I borrow your butterfly net? Pretty please? I broke mine.Lee
*LOLLee, I'm not positive, but if I'm not mistaken, I'd guess that Frank was actually answering the question! Can you imagine!?!Hey, are you doing the Philly show this year? I want to tease you about this thread in person...Scott
*I just checked my calendar -- and it is NOT April 1st. So, I suppose you are all serious about taking this WAAAAY too far.Come on. I mean, really, even if Annie did work for Marples, you have the option of just not responding to her. And, even if she did work for Marples, and that got you angry, you'd stick to the subject of whether or not such posts were valid on this forum. But PLEASE people -- all this talk about Annie's PERSONAL intentions is really below you. I know the people here are smarter than that.I just looked at Annie's first post again. Has anyone thought about the fact that her questions are really general -- in other words, not the sort of questions that someone from a chisel company would ask. More like the kind of questions a student in a college class might ask, someone who really doesn't know that much about woodworking. In other words -- what Annie said she is. Gee, what an original thought.If you really think this post is improper, STOP writing!!!
*Scott, if you want to bug me in person about this thread it won't be at the Philly show, I'm passing this year. I'm considering the ACC show in Chicago but my bookkeeper says I need more dough before I take my show on the road again. I'm also going to wait until the economy improves, it's a large investment to drag all my stuff to some far away and civilized place like Chicago or Philadelphia.However, if you want to make the trip to Montana I'll scare a beer or two out of the fridge for us.Matthew, you're right...I surrender, besides, tomorrow's a work day and forum time gets limited. Thanks for playing.I wish you luck in Philly, Scott.Lee
*I just logged into this forum after an absence of a few days and found this thread very interesting. It amazes me that some of you guys who write for FWW still have so much time to post responses on this site... its very impressive.I think you should cut Annie some more slack.As an artist, woodworker and recently retired advertising executive, I think it is too easy to forget that it sometimes takes half a lifetime to develop the correct level of cinicism for advertising. Many of your responses will have been truly helpful to Annie as a student- both the positive and negative ones, because you have to be able to overcome objections as well as present the product strengths in effective advertising. If this is done well, it can be a service to the consumer as well as the advertiser.I agree that Marples blue chip chisles are middle of the road, good value chisels, as I have a set of them along with others better and worse. They should be positioned that way in advertising.I also have Lie-Nielsen planes and other hand tools that arte works of art that far outstrip my ability to use them, but they encourage me to learn how to maximize their potential.To answer some of Annie's original questions, I took up woodworking for the pure enjoyment of it. Having been raised on a farm, I had some past experience of it in a very rudimentary way. Later in life it gives me great pleasure to work with wood, build furniture that family and friends can appreciate, and on a practical basis, my outrageous investment in tools can now be partly justified for framing my work in my new career as a painter.Love this website.
*Thank you Mr. Bannister. Your sincerity, attention and commitment gives wonderful insight.
*Annie, my opinion and experiences aren't so invaluable that i have to conserve them from prying eyes, nor so i quake at the first sign of spamail. Good luck on your project and puh-leeze put some humor in it! Make me laugh and i'll buy your damn chisels.i Why do you do woodworking?I can make a living at it and i'm a lousy employee. i It is a tradition for you?Blue collars run in my family, yes. i When do you choose to work?When it's not snowing really hard.i Are their certain ways you feel after completing a job or while you are working.I like being paid almost as much as Sgian Dubh does, but mostly i like watching the color and grain pop when i flood it with finish. i Do you choose a specific brand of tools, why or why not?Nope. My doctor says i have eclectsia.Cheers,"Sweet Colleen"
*Arno,Your analogy of the Psych 101 field trip to the State Asylum wasn't too far off. I do work at a 'State Asylum' only now it's more appropiatly called Mental Health Centre. On the other hand, my wife works at a bank, dealing with the public. On the days we share little anecdotes about our work, we usually agree that the only difference between the people she works with & the ones I work with is that mine are certified. :-)I enjoy this site a lot & I've followed this thread from the beginning & enjoyed it too. I can understand Tim's reluctance to let it go on, but I'm glad he did. It has brought out a lot of thought provoking questions & has made a lot of us think. Some of us need to lighten up a bit & remember the craft we share that brings us together. Is it Tim's job to protect us from evil or to protect us from ourselves?Now it's time to go make more sawdust.Paul Reuter
*Paul, I agree this has been an enjoyable thread. Normally, I try to stay out of these opinionated Donnybrooks and stick to wood tech questions. This one was turning into such a tempest in a tea pot, I just couldn't resist. Hope I haven't offended anyone. My sense of humor tends to drift between satire and outright sarcasm...And I especially like tweaking Lee Grindinger when I get the chance...Jealousy I guess. He's one of the nicest and most talented people in the craft....Just hope we haven't driven Annie to change her major to something more sedate, like Library Science or Accounting.
*It's in my blood (6 generations now), difference is, they depended upon it for a living whereas I'm a Engineer by trade, furnituremaker by desire. And despite some temporary electric distractions, I always migrate back to hand tool work. Quiet solitude and outright sense of accomplishment. Good luck with your project. When given a choice, always dance.John Adams in middle Tennessee
*Jon, tweak whenever the mood strikes. It's my privilege to know you and call you a friend.For those unaware, Jon has been associated with Fine Woodworking Magazine longer than anyone else. He has outlasted every owner, every editor and every other writer that magazine has had. I have benefited enormously from your information, Jon, as every woodworker that has ever split the covers on Fine Woodworking Magazine has. And now, (it's o-kay to start a sentence that way, Jon says so) we benefit from your input here. Your willingness to part with information is truly appreciated by many, especially me.I, too, hope I've offended no one in this thread.Lee
*Lee,Hear hear about Jon. He's quite a resource. One correction, Taunton has only had one owner. But Jon sure has outlasted all of the editors here!Tim
*Tim, I'm beginning to feel like Thomas Jefferson on his death bed: "Does Paul still live?"As for Taunton editors, I sure have seen my share...It's like back in Korea...They just keep coming over the hill....Anyway, I'm glad you let this thread run, but it probably should have come in over on the WoodWorkers Cafe board.
*I have incredible respect for Fine Woodworking magazine, but when I form a mental image of the magazine standing beside Knots, which the magazine sponsors, things just don't feel right any more. Can't quite put my finger on it, but hidden in this discussion is the answer.OK, enough online stuff -- I'm going to open up my new magazine!
*i Go back and read Annie's first post, just her first. She states very clearly that she is working for Marples. Now, should the door be opened for advertisers and marketers this forum would be innundated with solicitations and all of you guys would be down the road. Not having much time, nor really wanting to, spend it in front of this moniter, is why I come to this site.The absence of ads popping up before anything else makes for faster reading. I can log on, check it out, participate by gaining or sharing knowledge, and go on with my life.The wealth of knowledge here is outstanding! and the personalities and characters that come with it add to the enjoyment.I would be dissapointed if advertisements were allowed.Sheesh! Why does anybody take anything personal from the most impersonal form of communication?FWIWJack.
*Annie didn't say she's working for Marples. She said she's working on advertising for Marples. She ommitted the student part, probably bec she wasn't expecting drawing and quartering to be among the talents here. The idea of a savvy marketing type marching in here and announcing an intention to dredge our souls for financial gain is laughable.
*Splintergroupie,You make my point exactly. If Marples really was sending a drone into the forum to scope out woodworkers for useful marketing data, they wouldn't come out announcing the fact. Annie's original statements make it very clear that she was coming here to learn something -- not to take advantage of us.Again, the reaction she got shows how people can start down an illogical path and then, by some odd sort of mysterious momentum, develop into a full-froth frenzy over very little.
*Well I started to read this thread for the value of a shared community. And as a recently new practitioner of woodworking, I was inspired. Instead around post # 16, it turned ugly.Any way, I was at a woodworking show this weekend. I bumped into an older guy who was representing one of the major tool lines as a “working spokes man.” We got to talking about why I needed / wanted a table saw. And the conversation took a turn from there and here are my thoughts…Over the past few years, I have taken up Martial Arts, Running, Photography, Gardening, Wine Making, and now Woodworking. Why, well this is my thoughts… I train and run for a health strong body. I have now discovered a use for this body – to share with others my thoughts in the moment through creative expression. Be it a scene in a forest, the smell of a rose in a beautiful garden, an enjoyable glass of wine, or the smooth curve of a piece of wood; for me, I woodwork (carving or furniture) as a way to express myself and share with someone the essence of who I am. The creativity and attention to detail is an extension of who we are. Learning to work with the wood and not against it is the challenge. I use various mediums of expression to get in touch with the ways and traditions of the past in this crazy and busy world we live in.At this show, and I have hard it said other ways before, someone said: “You don’t invent anything new in woodworking, if you look far enough back, it has been done and perfected before.” And why is that, well because the basics of Man and Nature have been working together for hundreds and thousands of years. The Chinese understand the human body better than modern scientists and no once can beat a dove tail joint or a finely crafted hand tool.I woodwork because it’s a way of working with nature to share and communicate an emotion, event or a part of me with others.For what its worth.Mark
*Mark, if you keep that up, i'll have to start writing better jokes!I hope you come back. There's a bit of that inspiration you seek to be found here, and a smart person can learn something even from a bad example.
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