Replies

1. 
   GretchenTHE FIRST | Jan 24, 2011 12:51pm | #1

   Have you considered using a wipe on finish with your varnish? And why add the drier? Anyway, wiping on 3 applications and then a very light sanding and applying 3-5 more until the finish looks the way you want it. Far easier than brushing.

1. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 24, 2011 02:30pm | #2

   Using it as wiping varnish

   Hi, thanks for the reply. I'm finishing in a dusty old basement, so the japan drier is for speed, i'm trying to get it dry quick so it  doesn't feel like a rubble field when done. Not really effective so far. Maybe finish isn't thin enough? Top surface is 4 ft wide, my original pad didn't hold enough finish to make it all the way across, so I made it bigger(kinda looks like a mitten now). Lays it on too thick for my taste, but it does (usually) make it all the way across the board. I'm trying to use long strokes all the way across the top. Should I sand down to wood and start over?(UGH!!) PS the parts that look good look REAL good. Thanks, Brian.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 24, 2011 04:21pm | #3

   You are not using an appropriate technique for an oil/ varnish mix.  With oil/ varnish mix, you apply the material liberally, though you can sand in the first coat or so  with 400 grit wet dry paper.  You need not worry about long stroke or short, or even circular, just get plenty on..  Then you let it penetrate for 15 minutes or so, and then you wipe it ALL that you can off leaving none on the surface.  There is nothing to which dust can cling.  Then I'd give it a couple of days before the next coat use tung oil is very slow drying, much slower than BLO.  The effect of adding japan drier isn't clear, since tung oil doesn't react to all metallic driers.  After about three or four coats you should achieve a smooth finish with even sheen, but it will not have built a film on the surface and will only look satin, not semi-gloss or gloss. 

   For a shiny film finish, then a wiping varnish is a good choice.  Again, technique is important. You should not be using a pad as if it were a brush, rather think of using a just damp cloth to wipe off a table.  You can apply the varnish using circular motion to cover the material evenly but very thinly.  You can repeat this process after the preceeding coat has become just dry to the touch, after several hours.  You can do up to about three coats to make a sets without sanding between coats (it would be way to soft to sand).  Then you must let the set cure overnight as if it were a brushed on coat.  Then sand lightly before applying another "set" of three coats. 

   You will end up with dust nibs on any varnish finish.  There are a number of ways to remove them.   You can likely remove then in a couple of days by rubbing with the brown paper like on a grocery bag. It should be crumpled and unfolded several time to remove some of the stiffness.  If that doesn't work well for you, or if it makes too much unevenness of sheen, you can wait longer --say a month, and do a full fledged rubbing out process.  For that you sand with the finest paper that will remove the defects--typically 600 grit.  That will leave a pretty dull surface.  Then sand with about 1200 grit to remove the scratches from the 600 grit.  Then go to the final sheen with either a rubbing compound or fine pumice for satin, or with polishing compound or rottenstone for gloss.  If you want high gloss you follow with "swirl remover" type polishing compound. 

1. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 24, 2011 07:08pm | #4

   Sand off then?

   Thanks for the reply. So is there any hope for the finish that's applied already?  Or is it time to sand it down to wood and start over? And thanks for the tung -blo differentiation. I didn't there was a diff. ( One of MANY things I don't know). I'll switch over, I have both on hand. I like your tag line. Quite appropriate in this case.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 25, 2011 07:59am | #5

   I suspect you should strip it off.  Chemical stripper will leave it in better shape for refinishing than sanding. Unless the sanding were extensive, like floor sanding, it leaves areas where the finish has penetrated more deeply than others, making the new finish go on unevenly.  Especially a problem with staining or dying. 

2. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 25, 2011 12:24pm | #6

   More work, oh well.

   Thank yous to Gretchen and Steve for the replys. I REALLY appreciate the boost. All knowledge gleaned here advances my craft. Thanks for the stripping/sanding viewpoint. Very good point. My big weakness(well, let's just say most glaring) is finishing. Design and build skills have greatly advanced over the years, but not so much my finishing skills. Poly's easy but generally doesn't look as good as other finishes. And most importantly, I should TEST MY FINISH, first. ( I actually did, but on a tiny piece of scrap. Another lesson learned), and now for the scrapping of the finish. Live and learn!

3. 
   GretchenTHE FIRST | Jan 25, 2011 09:12pm | #8

   I will direct you to Howard's and Steve's posts for real pros, but I will give you kudos for using the varnish you are using. you make a great delineation between poly, etc. and recognize the "look" of the non-poly varnish you are using. These people "know" how to make varnish, so your drier isn't necessary. Think about the wipe on finish because of how you describe your conditons--that is yet another great reason for using it.

2. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 25, 2011 01:05pm | #7

   Hopefully you are following the oft repeated advise to fully test out your finish plans and schedule on scrap material before committing to the "money" project.

   When applying your oil/varnish are you thoroughly wiping off the excess after allowing it to set for 15-20 minutes?  Oil/varnish finishes are not normally scuff sanded between coats.  Some will apply the second coat using 600 grit W&D paper to create a slurry that will somewhat fill the pores and grain of the wood.  Whatever sanding you do should be scuff sanding with a grit no lower than 340-400.

   Oil/varnish finishing is normally a simple and relatively trouble free finishing process.  Little or no sanding is involved once the actual finish is beginning to be applied.  The process is to apply, let set 15-20 minutes and wipe dry.  Let it dry overnight and apply a second coat just like the first.  The varnish in the mixture seals the surface of the wood on the first coat so there is little additional penetration with the second coat.  Basicly you are done when you finish the second application.

1. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 26, 2011 11:47pm | #9

   Sometimes I wonder if my mother dropped me on my melon.

   I did test,(on a tiny 3" x 3" scrap) but then added the tung oil and drier and spaced out. I was just looking to get a little more life in the grain with the tung oil, not thinking it would so adversely affect things. The drier, ach! Let's not talk about the drier.  I stripped the piece today using Motsenbockers Varnish and paint lift off. A "green"  water based product. I gotta say, that was an amazing product. Next to no odor, no big mess. Easy. I was so sure it was going to be a week long thing. A couple-three hours and done! NOW to finish, I will go back to using my P+L #38 thinned with paint thinner about 50%. I have been using Timber Mate as pore filler with good results, but would like to skip that step. Howie, you say 600 grit on the second coat to fill the pores? Most often I've heard first coat to do that. Is there an advantage to doing it on the second? I'm thinking it will prevent sand through of stained areas, but other than that? And wipe that slurry off against the grain, right? Thanks for all your help everybody!

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Jan 27, 2011 11:39am | #10

   There is a big differerence between an oil/varnish mixture such as you originally used and a thinned wiping varnish which is what you are now proposing to use.  An oil/varnish (consisting of a drying oil, an oil based varnish or poly varnish and a thinner) is an in-the-wood finish to leaves little or no finish on the surface.  It is primarily absorbed into the wood.  A thinned wiping varnish (consisting of an oil based varnish or poly varnish thinned 50% with a thinner) is an on-the surface film forming finish.  The two are very different in intent, application method and appearence produced.  What are you looking to accomplish or do?

   My suggestion of "sanding in" the finish is a method some use for oil/varnish mixture finishes.  It creates a slurry of the sanding particles from the first, now dried, application and the sawdust filling in the pores somewhat.  It's not particularly good on deep pored woods.  It works much better on woods like cherry, walnut and mahogany.  It's not a method useable for a thinned wiping varnish finish.  For that finish, you need to fill the pores and grain before applying the thinned varnish.

   Just so we understand that oil/varnish mixtures and thinned wiping varnishes have two different application methods.  It applears that you used a wrong method originally.  An oil/varnish is wiped on, let set for 15-20 minutes and then wiped dry.  A second application is then done the next day.  There is no sanding except the option for applying the second coat as I described above.  Only two applications are applied.   A wiping varnish is wiped on and rubbed in in thin applications and then allowed to dry--no subsequent wiping.  Wiping varnishes produce a film finish exactly like the film finish produced by brushing on a full strength coat of varnish.  It's just the the film produced by wiping it on is only half as thick as when you brush on.  You need to apply at least twice as many wiped on coats to achieve the same film thickness as one coat of full strength brushed on varnish.

1. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 27, 2011 12:43pm | #11

   I wasn't clear, sorry!

   I was originaly using a wipe on.  I have always brushed, but wanted an easier  application method. So was trying the half and half recipe. This was what I added tung to, thinking it would pop the grain. Now back to half and half(p&l38 and thinner). By the way, my P&L is about 2 1/2 -3 years old. Does it go bad? Or can you skim the skin off and go? Thanks!

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 27, 2011 07:42pm | #12

   Varnish that has been opened for 2 1/2 years would be very risky to use.  You might well discover that it doesn't cure as hard as it should.   I'd replace it. 

2. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 28, 2011 11:27am | #14

   Yeah, better safe....

   Yeah I've screwed around too much with the finishing aspect of this project. I'm done messing about. Ever use McCloskeys spar varnish on furniture? Doable? Or don't do it? Thanks again!

3. 
   GretchenTHE FIRST | Jan 30, 2011 12:49pm | #17

   Yes, I have often. Others here will say it is "too soft". I don't quite "get" that, and many items I have used it on have done very well, including table tops that have gotten a LOT of wear.

3. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 28, 2011 11:24am | #13

   You guys rock!

   Yeah, better safe than sorry. I have to drive a ways to get more P&L38 (in Chicago? What's the deal with that?) Has any body used McCloskeys gloss spar varnish for furniture? Is it appropriate? Is it any good? I now have a permanent marker attached by a string to my finish shelf to mark my cans. . Marking your cans, another good nugget of advice. I'm sick of trying to remember how long stuffs been open. I seem to think I have a good memory. BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks again!!

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 28, 2011 02:14pm | #15

   Spar varnish is made to be flexible, because in it's original application--spars (masts and booms) on sailing vessels and other "brightwork" on boats get stressed a lot and the varnish must move with them.  Consequently, it is relatively soft and less water resistant than interior varnishes.  As an exterior spar varnish McCloskey is OK for well shaded areas, but compared to high grade marine spar varnishes, in the sun it won't hold up nearly as well.

1. 
   JustMrWonderful | Jan 29, 2011 12:24pm | #16

   Thanks Steve!

   Thanks for the info. I bit the bullet and drove across town to get my Pratt & Lambert. I know how to use this stuff (pphhtt! Yeah, right! Ha!!), at least I mess it up the least. I'm thinking of thinning it even more than half to combat dust. Extra coats don't worry me time-wise, just dust nibs and further possible screw-ups!!  How long does it take to cure this type of varnish? I'd probably try to rub to a gloss finish, just don't know how long to let it sit. I usually let my stuff sit for a month, and then either rub it out or send it out. I like the paper bag tip. Gonna use that one, for sure. Thanks again, Brian.