I like to check out new tools. It seems to be a trend that tool companies are developing new routers to work in router table set ups but no tool companies are making dedicated router tables. (Yes, Delta has one but it is junk compared to what could be made). It seems to me that any company that can produce a benchtop tablesaw and a router could easily combine the two to produce a dedicated router table. All they would basically have to do is turn the motor vertically.
I have a little inventor in the back of my head telling me that this is a strange lapse in tool design. So, recently I looked into patents……very expensive. Then I decided that the idea was more important to me than the profit so I emailed the marketing branches of some major woodworking tool manufactuers about my idea. (no answer)
This left me questioning if such a machine would be desirable to my fellow woodworkers.
So give me your opinions. would any of you guys buy a dedicated router table. Imagine it like I said; exactly like a benchtop tablesaw but with a motor in the vertical position…..variable speed, folding stand, t-square fence, height/angle adjustable, and aroung $500.
Thanks fellas.
gk
Replies
Have you looked around? I see no lapse. Plenty of sources already doing what you are suggesting like Benchdog, Jessem, Woodhaven, MLCS, etc. You can buy complete units of iron or laminate tops and mix and match accessories like fences, hold downs.
Edited 2/15/2004 8:15:41 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
Ive seen plenty around ,,, Bosch, Fein tools,
Dogboy
Sounds almost like you're talking about a bench-top shaper, especially with the comment about the Delta model. Am I on the right track there???
forestgirl Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>) you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I would never spend that amount on a router table. I feel that any competant woodworker can make their own ,that suits their set up for a lot less.Mine is folding , light, easy to transport so it is great for site work,UGLY,but works for me and cost about $60.However I hope you get more positive response from others who have need of a nicer thing.My needs are related to earning a living and I tend to have more work than time
You need a Rockler catalog.
ok fellas I see that you may not understand my query. I know alot about shapers and router table assemblies.
shapers are good tools but shaper blades are expensive and more rare than router bits. what I am talking about is a table setup (just like a table saw) that is sold with a built in motor that accepts all common router bits with 1/2" and 1/4" shanks.
I mean i can make a cheap table and slap an upside down circular saw in it...but is that what you would want for a tablesaw? Why is it ok for a router table. (like offered in rockler and such). I am simply speaking of a machine that is the same as a table saw but set up specifically as a router table.
maybe this will help...imagine Bosch made one of these.
(same pics one is just a smaller file)
You're thinking of a tiny, portable version of saw/shaper, like a Robland and Felder, right? These combos have dedicated motors for each function but I suppose you could create a fixture that would allow for the dual use. You'd have to create a motor strong enough to be used with a 10-inch blade and also deal with the rpm requirements of the router. I think your job is to build a prototype of not just the saw/router table, but a working model depicting the actual conversion from saw to router.
Nice infographic. You work for a newspaper?
Gabe, I understand exactly what you are saying and I still say it's already been done in a sense. I would rather assemble choice components and make up what I want than buy Bosch's or your rig. Everyones needs are a little different and I'm always tweaking my machines to suit me. Nothing comes out of the box perfect in my 35 years experience. People buy push stick and zero clearance inserts so there's bound to be a few takers.
Dude,
That IS a SHAPER!!! With a very common tilting spindle.
Mike (dude),
I suppose I must apologize for starting such a silly post. It was my thought that a dedicated table router was just that. However, after polling the masses here at Taunton Press, it seems I was in err. Aparently a router table is only a device which is can be sold without a motor and also apparent is that if a motor were to be sold in such a device then it shall be deemed a shaper. There can be no other.
It has been my error for lack of understanding the correct woodworking tool terminology.
I guess I would just like a portable shaper that only accepts router bits.
Thank you all for straightening me out.
gk
Edited 2/17/2004 12:10:38 AM ET by gabe
Gabe
Triton (Australia) make something which is about 80% there, and I've seen others, too (but none with a tilting spindle/arbor mechanism). I sincerely doubt that your idea of having a tilting arbor on a router would work - tilting arbors work on dedicated shapers and spindle moulders because those machines are designed to with either a fixed spindle or a large diameter removeable spindle top which has a large clamping/taper area. Try putting a collet extender on a conventional router to accommodate the extra reach a tilt mechanism will require and it's asking for slippage, flexing, more bit runout, vibration and premature collet and bit failure. Personally, I'd like to see router table makers come up with a decent quality split fence - I've yet to see one. Liked the illustrations, though. Some nice touches in there
Scrit
Edited 2/17/2004 12:43:51 AM ET by Scrit
Gabe
I've used the Delta tabletop router / shaper. I like it, despite its small table, two part fence and jerky vertical adjustment. None of these are fatal flaws, just annoying to have to work arround. To make it better the first thing I'd have Delta change is the vertical adjustment mechanism. The fence is realatively easy to fix and the small table could be "fixed" with in and out feed tables.
Why do I like it? Because it has an induction motor that spins at low RPM safer, less chance of burning the work. It uses standard 1/2 nad 1/4 router bits. It cost less than a dedicated variable speed router, router lift and table — from the start I realised that a router table meant a dedicated router. AND it fits in the shop but can be moved outside when needed.
do I need a tilting spindle? I don't think so. As I understand it, shaper spindles tilt so a single (expensive cutter) can cut a variety of edge profiles. Router bits are relatively cheap so you can buy a number of bits which when used successively will cut the profile you need.
Ian
That thing about a tilting spindle giving you lots of extra profiles is just so much marketing hokum (I'm talking Felder, here). It is sometimes useful to be able to profile a chamfered face, but that can generally be dealt with by making a jig, so I've yet to see a good reason for spending the extra money on one. Possibly if I were to need to do a lot of crown (architrave) mouldings? The only thing I can think of is that it allows you to cut infinitely variable chamfers with nothing more than a rebate block - but then I can already do that with a vari-angle chamfer block...
Scrit
Edited 2/17/2004 4:58:35 PM ET by Scrit
Scrit
you to cut infinitely variable chamfers with nothing more than a rebate block
that is what I was alluding to. with a router table you either need an infinitely variable jig or a cupboard full of bits or both. For a hobby or low volume shop I can't see the value.
Ian
The only problem is that as you progressively cant the spindle over you need a progressively larger (diameter and height of cut) rebate block to acheive a chamfered edge. (Spindle) moulder rebate blocks are typically 3 to 5in in diameter with a cut height of 2in or more and weigh several pounds (I know because I have a 7-1/2HP SCM spindle). Even allowing for the fact that you would not need such a depth of cut on a router table, you'd still need to be able to acommodate a 1in depth of cut to put a 45 degree chamfer edge on a 3/4in thick piece of material. Would the small router collets we are talking about here capable of holding such a cutter and would it be possible to slow the router motor down sufficiently (without major loss of torque) to run such a large cutter safely? Not trying to knock your idea down, just trying to bottom out the canting spindle issue.
Scrit
Scrit
going out on a bit of a limb here ...
CMT for one make a 1/2 in shank straight bit 2 in long. Soo I suppose it could be tilted to cut a 45 deg mitre on a 1 in board. Given a router with enough hp I'm sure it could be spun with enough grunt.
But, I wasn't really intending to comment on the abilities of routers. What was being discussed was a portable shaper / router table with a tilt mechanism. If I've got the sense of the responses from the router users right it is a "tilting arbour is not really required".
To my mind what was originally described is pretty close to what Delta offer with their portable router/shaper.
Ian
Edited 2/18/2004 6:46:08 AM ET by ian
To all,
Personally, if I need a custom piece of trim I draw a to scale profile and take it to my favorite lumber / door making shop and for $150 they will make the knifes then they charge something like $.15 a foot pluss the cost of the wood. I have only needed this service once and even then the knife wasn't really a custom ground knife, rather a special order set. Any profile you can think of is already out there. I have had radius casings made a few times for windows and they usually cost around $50 if I supply the laminated trim.
If a shop ,or hobbiest, needed to actually make their own mouldings you would use a moulder not a shaper. Moulders aren't really all that expensive, and the knives cost less than good shaper cutters, and can be resharpened in your own shop.
MIke
P.S. how do you adress a post to ALL?
It works just fine does'nt it and essentially is the tool Gabe has been eluding to. 200 bucks and I got a table, fence, height adjustment,dust port and they even threw in an induction motor. Idiosyncracies seem to be part of the dance we do. It was well worth the money.
"I guess I would just like a portable shaper that only accepts router bits.:"
I don't believe this is what you want as a shaper is to slow to properly run router bits. There's a few tilt router accessories out there such as Woodhavens tilt base and I have seen a few horizontal mounted router tables that tilt. Keep collecting catalogs and information. I can say with certainty what you want is already out there for the most part.
Hey Gabe,
I believe I detected a bit of sourcasm there. Ha ha. I actually agree with what you are proposing in general. As far as I know Delta makes the only table top shaper on the market. I figure if companies can all whip out a decient contractors saw for 400 - 500 bucks, why can't they also make an affordable shaper? What you are showing there is what I think a portable (or economical) shaper should look like. Although I agree that tilting arbors are not all that necessary. As some one posted there is not much need for a "shaper like" tool in the field, but a lot of "portable" tools are used in small shops because of the smaller footprint and the lower cost. Your design would fit that bill. The only reasonable reason I've heard to not buy a shaper is the cost of the cutters. But they last longer. So I believe the only reason that people continue to buy giant router and expensive lift kits is the marketing of it all. Porter Cable can make more money selling routers that will burn up and need replacement every 2 years (in a small comercial shop) than selling an induction powered shaper with heavy bearings that will last for 10 years in the same enviroment.
I have seen a table top shaper made by Grizley for several years and it only cost around 140.00 dont know how good it was or if they even make it anymore. go to grizley on line .
dogboy
Thanks guys,
It seems there are a few here who are still unable to fathom the concept but for the most part, I am glad to see that there are plenty of people who not only understand, but are willing to educate the others.
I like my idea more by the day, and I will be the first to admit that some kinks need to be ironed out. The angle adjustment properties seem to be of most debate. From my point of view, if a saw can go to 45 degrees then a router would not have a problem. The shaft may need to be extended some unless the maker of the table router were to provide extra length bits. Another aspect that may be looked into during the final design stage may simply be to change the pivot point from that of a common table saw.
Another aspect of debate has been the motor. The motor I had in mind is the one currently being used in the PC Speedmatic 3.25Hp router. It is one of the most heavy duty, bullet proof motors I have ever used in a router. It also has the variable speed that I wanted. It took a beating, it was transported all over in a bouncing trailer w/o a case and saw around a decade of extreme use. I used to use it on corian with 3.5" x 1.5" bits. No problems ever.
My other wants include an easily adjustable fence like the DeWalt's rack and pinion. Also would like a larger table area, since on the job I use the tables for some assembly work and other tasks. Just some thoughts that make my design stand out from the "create your own" units.
Thanks for all the respoces fellas.....did I forget any of your wants though?
keep me informed.
gk
Gabe,
Don't think that those who disagree with you can't understand your idea. They simply disagree with the idea. Initially I disagreed totaly. Now I agree that it would sell (people will buy anything) but I think that a shaper is a better tool. As far as having this tool in the field, I would prefer to have a router mounted in the wing of my portable t-saw. On my sites I can never leave the tools at the end of the day. So the last thing I want is to have to pack up another 80 pound tool. I believe that all of the better portable saws offer a wing that can double as a router table. Some come with it.
I think that I am a very good trim carpenter, although that is only probably 20% of my work. The guys that I know who do 600,000 $ houses all use the Rossaeu (sp?) system. They like it because it is a whole trim shop that can set up in 45 min. and takes up little space. I also have never had the space for all these seperate machines.
Mike.
Mike,
Thanks for the input. It seems that Powermatic has taken that advice already. I have seen that they even provide a cabinet saw with the Rout-R-Lift system pre-installed. I also know that makita has offered a router hole for quite some time. I have seen the Rousseau set-ups. Very nice, but lots of coin.
What is your system like? and what is your designated occupation?
I do remodeling and specialize in trim and cabinet making. I also make furniture as a hobby. Nothing that requires the investment into a shaper, but I have a definite need for a router table. Usually I work out of a GMC Suburban so for me, space is a rarity but a tablerouter the same size as my tablesaw could be welcomed, especially if it fit into my current tablesaw stand.
Good to hear from you again.
gk
Gabe,
You're talking about an inverted router (which may or may not have a pin guide as well). A google search brought up a few hits.
Cheers,
eddie
Thanks Mike and Eddie,
I am glad to see that I'm not the only crazy person here. It seems that the idea isn't far from that inverted router setup. But man are those expensive. If it fit in my truck for $500 or less then I'm all set. (no soucasm this time)
To those who posted about tilting spindles...my idea was two fold. First was the possibility that it might provide more versatility for my router bits--no jig needed. Isn't a jig just a type of tool modification anyway. If your tool was made more versatile the jig would be unnessesary. (jig lovers...please don't rebut, I know that some sort of jig will always be nessesary). Secondly, I wanted to convey the connection to a modified tablesaw.
To those who posted about the usefulness of a table router in the field. What in the heck do you do? (don't answer). I am, for lack of a better cliche', a "jack of all trades". In the world of custom work, I need a router table almost as much as a tablesaw. And If you don't see the need then why are all routers now being developed for table setup? Lots of people need table routers for their work.
To those who keep telling me you built your own...did you build your own tablesaw too. same thing.
To anyone who thinks I should build/patent this idea...will you loan me the money to do so?
gk
Hey gabe,
I don't know if you understood what the others were saying about tilting router arbors. Basicly as you tilt the arbor the bit gets closer to the table, so then you need to raise it. In fact most practical applications would require that the shaft of the bit be like 4 or 5 inches long to be able to tilt it 25 or 30 degrees, and at 45 degrees you wouldn't be able to get the stock under the bit unless the shaft was like 6 inches long. Obvioulsy a router bit shank could never support a bit of any size at this length. Shapers over come this by using a beefy shaft that is already longer.
Mike
Check out the Wood Haven tilt router base for ideas on the application.
http://www.woodhaven.com/singleproduct/?fromsearch=1&product=1425
AHH HA,
I was thinking that the work would pass under the bit. Duh! It looks like that thing would work up to 25 or so degrees after that it still looks like the shank be short.
I see in those examples what would be usefull applications. And I dont know of any moulder that could do that either. If I ever do need that sort of work done I will send the profile to my supplier and they will most likely find a readymade piece. If I needed it in matched grain teak then I would build a jig for the shaper instead of buying a tilting router lift.
mike,
look at the link that Rick gives.....nuff said.
gk
Gabe
OK, you're not crazy. But JESVS how many rouers will I need? There'll be the trimmer (or is that two or three), the powerful hand held, a lighter hand held, one in a conventional router table, one in this tilting base thingy with its own table, one for ...
Soo, a tilting base is available, but what about a table insert with an eliptical hole?
was looking at the tilting table on a spindle sander today and this thread got me wondering, what if the router table tilted? Just as a thought
That set up really could make some nice mouldings.
Mike
I will try to answer questions as they come and wil also try to word my responces accurately...
Ian,
I cannot suggest how many routers you need for your work without knowing what your use of routers is. I can only say that I have a need for 3 routers. That being a trim router, a hand-held router, and a table router. I believe that I am not the only carpenter with such needs.
I apologise for being forward but I believe your skepticism of the need for a table router (as with many posters) points to a view that such a machine is the same as a conventional router table setup. My idea involves a new machine that will overcome the weaknesses of attaching a handheld router to a table.
Deggeobo,
If my opinion is listened to during the creation this table router, it would have a lengthened spindle of nessesary strength as not to break under the pressure of heavy use. I am glad that you were not hurt when the spindle broke on you, such an occurance was probably due to poor craftsmanship/engineering of that Sears shaper.
To all,
I don't believe that the router bits nor router spindles today have a working range that support angled use. However, the need for a bit does not currently exist either. If the popularity grows for a machine that can angle, the tooling will in turn become available. This can only happen if the mentality that a machine like that is possible.
My task is to convience the company that likes my idea that it will overcome the deficiencies of what is currently available. That is why I posted. I want to know how professional woodworkers use router tables. I want to know what their set-ups lack and then how I should perceive what a perfect machine would be. I appreciate all the posts whether they tell me I am thinking in the right direction or advise me in another. I do not like posts that tell me that it is impossible or unneeded. The need is there, the possibility is being worked on.
thanks....please keep posting
gk
BTW, just got paperwork from Pentair (Porter-Cable) they seem rather interested.
Gabe
In the interests of continuing this discussion ...
I'm in Australia, but assume the Taiwanese stuff I can get locally is also available in the US, almost certainly under a different brand name, and that European equipment is also available if you look hard. Forgive my use of Aussie dollars for comparision, but I'm refering to prices in a 2003 Aussie catalogue. The exchange rate at the time the catalogue was printed was about 60 US cents to 1 Aussie dollar.
Delta Router Shaper $599
CMT Router Table including fence $990 a Veritas table and fence would be about $920Rout-Lift plus Changeable insert $554Makita 3HP variable speed router $450Total $1994
Taiwanese 3 speed Tilting Head Spindle Moulder with 1/2 in collet (3 HP) head tilts to 30 deg $2,104
European 3 speed tilting head Spindle Moulder 3.5 HP, head tilts 30 deg forward and 5 deg rearward $2999Machine can be fitted with a sliding table for $995I guess that a 1/2 collet would add about $100.
For comparison, a Delta 10 in Unisaw with 50 in Beesemeyer fence is $3395
The point of all this ? I can get a European spindle moulder for about the cost of a Unisaw. I can get a Taiwanese spindle moulder for about the same cost as a router, router lift and router table.
My preference would be the European machine, if cost were only a minor consequence.However, if cost were a major consideration, then I'd probably settle for the Taiwanese moulder unless I built my own router table (thereby saving about $800) but I'd still be sorely tempted towards a moulder.
If space were the primary consideration I'm not sure how I'd vote. All options have about the same floor space requirements, but the router option can be moved around much more easily.
Don't give up on your idea, but I wonder if the machine you envisage is already here in the guise of a tilting head moulder or the tilting router holder posted earlier.
Ian
Ian,
I agree with you about the cost issue. I think Gabe's idea is that by selling a complete unit with the router motor perminately mounted and ready to go the price would be much less. I think that he is right about that. I would imagine that the manufacturers could make this machine for $350 to $600. The other advantage would be for those who have a large ($1,000) bit collection. This individual would not have to reinvest in shaper cutters.
I would still prefer a shaper with an induction motor.
Mike
MIke,
once again you got it. A table router should be no more in cost than the tablesaw (bench model) of that same company. Every part of a tablesaw would be directly realtable to the table router.
One exception....I think it would be mor useful to have variable speed control on the table router. (Do shapers have speed control? I don't think they do?)
I talked to the Makita technology rep today...he seemed moderatly interestd but mostly confused...oh well.
gk
Gabe,
Most all shapers have a speed and direction control. One part or the contraption that is not rransferable is the motor, as the speed is much higher (universal motor).
Once again I do think that a $500 shaper is a better choice for the consumer, although most consumers already pass them up for more expensive router/ lift/ table combos. So, based on that logic (nonlogic?) your idea would undoubtably sell
Mike,
Did you say shapers have a higher speed than routers?
PC 3.25hp router....10000-23000 rpm
Delta 3hp shaper....7000-10000 rpm
The rest is true and your logic is correct. I figure it would sell best to joe consumer but I think if the option is there then pro woodworkers would opt for it too. This is assuming that if it is built, the concept is not mucked up by the manufacturer.
thanks
gk
No, Routers are much faster that is the problem. The motors used in table saws spin slower therefore they could not be used in this machine you describe. to achieve these speeds the motor needs to be a universal motor.
Mike.
How can you make that shaper use router bits and be portable enough to carry to a job site? I am a finish carpenter and need portable equipent. At first I was skeptical but I think Gabe is on to something.We become by effort primarily what we end up becoming
- Zig Ziglar
The reason The Spindle Broke On My old Craftsman Shaper Was Because It Was Too long About 3" On A 1/2" Spindle Poor Design Much Like Everything Sears Has. They Always Have A Good Idea On A Mickey Mouse Frame. One Feature I Did Like On That Old Shaper, Which I Still Have, I replaced The Spindle, Was The Fence It Was Adjustable On Both Sides OF the Spindle And Could Be Used Some What Like A Jointer
On My Router Table I Generally Use 1/2" Router Bits Which I Bottom Out Then Raise Back Up About 1/8" Which Leaves Very Little Shank above The Collet One Job My Router Table performs That A Shaper Won`t Is Run A Dado 3" Off The Fence. I Feel Safer Having The Board Flat Rather Than On Edge.
Just Another Post To Digest Along Your Quest.
Dwayne Edge
Agree.
All that is being described is a shaper table -- a portable(?) one -- with a half inch collet instead of using shaper cutters. Strikes me as a bad idea, but on the theory that everyone has a special tool he wants/needs, this DOES sound like a 'build it yourself' project.
As I see the whole thing laid out, the original poster wants to be able to take a shaper table -- oops, 1/2" collet 'router' table -- into the field for professional work. I'm not completely clear as to what kind of job would require THAT tool design IN THE FIELD, but then everyone does the work differently anyway.
I can see why the tool manufacturers put the inquiries into file 13, though. I mean, with the hundreds of new and innovative tools coming out each year, EACH of them must have a potential market in order to justify production. This tool seems incredibly like the proverbial solution in search of a problem.
Or maybe I just can't see the whole picture. (o;
Terry in Iowa
What our gentleman is looking for is an inverted router.
Built like a shaper but accepts router bits.
Here's a bomb-proof industrial version that I am familiar with.
I'm sure that there are lighter duty versions available too without the pricetag.
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 2/18/2004 2:17:05 PM ET by eddie (aust)
What you are describing is commonly refered to as a shaper. They cost from 500 to 1200 bucks and have very powerful induction motors. In my not so humble opinion a $600 shaper knocks the socks off any combination of a router, lift and table easily costing the same.
MIKE
Shapers seem very scary to me. I came across one cheap and actually traded it away. Maybe I should be more afraid of the router.
Frank
Hi Frank,
Shapers are very scary. A 5" panel raising bit makes a hell of a whirling sound. However you may not know that shapers actually spin a lot slower than routers (safer). Also their direction of rotation can be reversed and the cutter installed upside down so you can cut in both directions. That means no climb cutting or dangerous starts. Their fences are a lot sturdier and they usually have safety guards built in. One time, only once, I spun up a big bit in a 3 horse router. Never again. I don't think that routers and their loosely attached tables are stable enough for those bits. A shaper weighs at least 200 pounds, you can feel the difference in the stability when it is spinning.
So, yes shapers are scary. But I think a panel raising bit stuck on a half inch shank spinning at 21,00 RPM attached to a 25 pound router / lift combo held on a table by gravity is really scary. If a bit needs more power than my Bosch 2 HP router has then I but the shaper cutter instead.
Mike
PS. I forgot, you can add an auto feeder to a shaper making it much safer.
I think a panel raising bit stuck in an inverted router spinning at 21,000 rpm would scare me, too - bits that big normally have a maximum speed in the 10,000 to 12,000 rpm range..... Shapers (and spindle moulders) scare me a lot less. For starters the cutter block is held on by a great big nut rather than depending a compression fit in a relatively tiny collet. They also tend to have decent fences, my biggest gripe with bought-in router tables.
Scrit
Scrit,
Yea I got carried away. LOL. You aren't supposed to spin panel bit a full speed in a router. Frankly I am suprised that there weren't a lot of people disagreeing with my opinion that shapers are better than the 3 horse router in a lift set up. The last time there was a lot of nay sayers.
Mike
In The Early 80`s While Running A Sears Shaper On Oak Stock, Cope & Stick, The Spindle Broke. It Missed me. Now I Only Use My Home Built Router Table.
I would venture to guess that for every shaper spindle that blows many more router bit shanks snap. Personally I have not known of either.
I am also pretty shure that the vast majority of failures are user error.
Mike
I made my own router table. 18" x 36" top. Dovetailed table frame. T-slot track. Horizontal and vertical featherboards. Sliding square. 5" tall fence. Storage cabinet below. Safety lockout switch for bit changes.
I would not feel compelled to buy one. I had fun making mine and it has paid for itself many times over.
so if I am understanding what all of you are saying...If I were to invent a saw table consisting of a laminate top and wood fence (or a plan for such a table) you would rather buy that, then go choose the circular saw of your liking, and mount that to said top.
Strange, i don't know many people with homemade saw tables.
Sorry guys....I totally understand each of you (I have made a couple of my own router tables) I love woodworking and nothing in woodworking is more satisfying than building your own tools. I had researched all the tables that you all spoke of before posting here or contacting any tool companies. I know what is already out there...it just seems queer to me that there is such a differing perspective between saws and routers.
Again, thanks for all the advise and comments. I am glad to get opinions that differ from my own.
Edited 2/16/2004 10:54:11 AM ET by gabe
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=40080.4
gk
A router table is a personal thing in each persons needs. Some people want something portable, some want big and stationary. I can guarantee you right now I would have to modify your's or Bosch's router table to fit my uses. I did the same thing to my table saw and saw fence.
Edited 2/26/2004 8:49:03 AM ET by Rick at Arch. Timber and Millwork
Rick,
I totally agree.
however, you needed something to modify.
shapers are stationary...I would like a shaper in my shop just the same as a cabinet saw. In the field it would be nice to have a benchtop table router to accompany my benchtop table saw. They would even use the same folding stand.
I guess i'm alone in this but thank you.
gk
Like Rick said, lots of people buy push sticks. These people are your market. Find them. Not many folks on this forum buy Craftsman power tools, but Craftsman is doing just fine without them. I, for one, have no problem imagining Bob Villa pawnong your wares to Joe Homeowner on Saturday morning.
P.S. 1st get the patent , THEN brag about your invention.
Shop Fox makes what you're talking about. Check out the router table at the bottom of this page:
http://tool-corral.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/page84.html
I made my own router table,out of plywood and scraps of wood..but here is ONE:
http://woodworking.org/WC/GArchive98/7_10johnsrtab1.html
one of the better ones!
If nothing sticks to Teflon,how does Teflon Stick to metal. Huh
$500 will buy you a decent shaper without the need to purchase a seperate router.. Jet, Grizzley, and others sell at that price point.
It would take some pretty special need to buy a $500 router lift table with it's short fence, small top and the need to spend another $300 for the router to run it..
I have the tiny Jet shaper and I run 1/2 router bits in it almost exclusively. I make LOTS of stuff on it, I just did a run of target stocks for Uzi submachineguns, all the profiling and shaping was done on the shaper with router bits. I also did these pistol grips for another gun a full auto .22 SMG that I doubt anyone here has heard of. These were done completely on the shaper. I cut the top groove with a shaper cutter but they were profiled and rounded out with a 1/2 router bits.
As soon as I get an incra fence on it, I figure I will be in heaven. The footprint of the shaper is pretty small and I made a wood top for it so it is a table when not being used.
http://www.mgstocks.com/am180verticle.jpg
Absolutely use a router table! Take the wood to the tool when at all possible (instead of the tool to the wood.) Make your own. It's a great first project and it will be cheaper and better than anything you can buy. Use two layers of 3/4" MDF or plywood with a clear insert. Clad it with white melamine and put a coat of wax on it. Get a foot switch for the router so you don't have to reach under to start and stop it. I also recommend making your own fences. Incra (sp?) makes some great ones with mirco adjustments but they're very expensive. I've got plenty of toys in my garage but this is probably the most used.
Good luck!
Ray,
"I've got plenty of toys in my garage but this is probably the most used."
That's part of my point. I have more than one shopmade router table. I think others should have a router table and I think they should have the option of buying one.
Thanks for the post.
gk
I think I know what you're getting at. You are thinking of a lighter weight shaper that uses inexpensive readily available router bits instead of a shaper. It's a good idea, I looked at the cheapo delta before I built a new router table into my new table saw, but decided not to because the Amazon reviews for the delta were awful.
It's not a bad idea simply because a $50 router bit is a $200 shaper cutter that can also be used in a freehand router. I think that there is a market there because not everyone want's a shaper and a whole new set of expensive bits.
Good luck!
Tele,
It seems people are beginning to understand now. If you have read the previous posts, it has been difficult to convence many.
So far, I have mailed my suggestion to DeWalt and talked to a tech at Rigid who liked the idea. I have also contacted Porter-Cable, Makita, and Bocsh. Bosch is sending me forms.
I really wish I had the capital to build it myself but these companies will probably do a better job anyway. I'm a carpenter not a tool designer.
Thanks for the support Tele.
gk
i wedge mine between 2 2x4's nailed to saw horses and can route 20 footers no problem
That's the same way I used to hold my tablesaw on the job.
gk
Every new idea goes through 3 stages:
1) outright ridicule
2) violent opposition
3) self-evident acceptance
You have gotten past (1) and valiantly argued through most of (2) , keep it up and you will achieve level (3) eventually.
I am strictly a hobbyist but another tool wouldn't hurt.Yes,I made it. No,not hard. Yes, a long time.
The Shop Fox 1 hp shaper/router seems very similar to what you describe. I was not aware of this machine until this thread started. It looks like it might be a very good option. Does anyone have any experience with this machine? At $300 for a router plus a cast iron table it seems like a very good deal. The only obvious limitation is the maximum spindle speed of 14K, which is not too bad.
If you go back and reread his original post and follow up with illustrations you will see exactly what he's referring to. 16354.1 16354.9 pics! Is it just me and a few others who actually understand what gabe is referring to? The 1 hp Shop Fox shaper doesn't have the tilt feature gabe wants so it's not really the same concept.
I still maintain what he wants is already available in the sense you put the pieces together from various sources. Personally PC makes such a lame table now I can't imagine them getting this one right either.
http://www.woodhaven.com/singleproduct/?fromsearch=1&product=1425 Put the Woodhaven tilt base in your table of choice and add fences available from Jessem or many other places or make your own and add the router of your choice and voila!
I think his point, at least in part, is that to put a router table together from bits and pieces provided by different suppliers becomes ridiculously expensive, especially in comparison to the cost of a small shaper. It would seem simple enough for a single manufacturer to put together a complete package at a price that would undercut everyone else's partial solutions. The part you refer to costs $160, which is extortinate for the small amount of functionality that it adds.
David
Gabe's idea can use a 3450 rpm induction motor, but it needs to be indirect drive to get the higher rpm's needed for router tooling. Onsrud uses a flat belt to drive their spindles in their inverted routers. The induction motor is quieter, and durable, but may be too heavy for a portable setup analogous to a job site tablesaw.
To keep the design light and affordable, one solution is to use a universal motor with a bearing further out from the windings than is typical on handheld routers. This way, when the spindle is tilted, the fat portion of the motor does not hit the underneath of the table. Raising and tilting would be very similar to what we now have on portable tablesaws. The spindle could be 1-1/4" diameter, since it will stay below the table mostly. The bore could even be made to accomodate 3/4" shank bits for special applications. Only the collet would need to be changed.
All of this is easy to engineer. The tricky part is striking the correct balance between capability, weight, and price. That equation has been fine-tuned by the leaders of the benchtop tablesaw category, so Gabe has the right idea taking them as a point of departure. Sounds like a great project!
Bugle
I agree with you 100%.
What you mean is a DEDICATED ROUTER for the table..which may be missed by some posts.
many woodworkers end up buying 2 routers..one for the table and one for free hand routing. You end up with two fences, two dust extractors etc
Inverted routers should have better bearing and motor protection as the cuttings fall onto the mechanism, and the cover which is over the motor should be better protected from dust as it is usually enclosed in a confined space that houses chippings and dust that fall through the table.
How many of us can clearly see what speed we are setting? When the router is inverted the setting print is usually on the top of the dial and not on the side.
The dust extraction also wants sorting out...........and the greatest problem is the depth of cut, without having to buy extension cutters...this should be incorperated into the design, so that the cutter is well down inside the collet.
Having said all that.....i maybe should buy a spindle moulder???????????
Go for it....Mike
Mike (StrongBo),
Thanks for the encouragment!
As I read your post, I see you are concerned about debris entering the motor and ultimately decreasing the life of the motor. I have also thought about this. My plan may have to involve a dust shield over the upper motor vents. A friend commented to me saying that it may be possible to use the motor's fan to channel debris in the same way that a portable planer does. Both ideas that I am looking into and am still open to suggestion over.
"Having said all that.....i maybe should buy a spindle moulder???????????"
I cannot suggest without knowing what you do. I posted earlier telling what I do. I feel that shapers are good for major production (I used to have a shaper) but the upkeep in knives seem too excessive for my use. Just too costly to keep up with the everchanging wants of my moulding design. I like to stick to cheap router bits, many times just buying the cheap-o harbor freight or home depot stocks knowing that I will probably use them for one or two jobs before getting bored with the profile. Also, without the availibility of powerfeeders, it is sometimes nerveracking to use a shaper with large custiom blades. I found it easier and economical to just leave it up to a pro millworker. That's just me. How about you?
One termite to another.
gk
Just a retired old wood worker!!!!!!
They are selling home spindle moulders made by Electra ( German for arrd £500)...having said that I also ind the router inverted and the table ok fro my needs. I suppose if space wasn't a problem then I might consider one.
Good luck with the venture.......
I'm with you all the way
Mike
I've been working on some of the design issues as was noted before. I have in no way perfected anything, simply put things in a coherent drawing form that can be anylized by fellow woodworkers and the companies that I have been dealing with.
Basically what the first pic is showing is a variation on the idea of height adjustment using tapered gears and a screw lift. Also shows the angle adjustment using rack and pinion gearing.
The second pic is of the debris control that had been talked about. I figured air could move upward out of the motor, then the air and falling debris is redirected outwardly away from the motor by the fan. I don't really know how much air movement is needed to protect the motor, but I figure what I came up with is better than what most machine motors have anyway.
what do you guys think......any good engineer-types out there?
thanks
gk
Edited 3/1/2004 6:19:43 AM ET by gabe
Here's those pics.
gk
Gabe
I suggest that the table insert be rectangular rather than square as the hole for the bit will need to be elliptical as this is the path traced by a cylinder as you tilt it.
Based on the design of spindle moulders, I suggest that the tilt be forward and back (say 30 deg and 5 deg).
Setting the angle of tilt against a scale will be easy, but I can't immediately see how to do the same for the lift range as it is up and out.
As an idea, would a standard vertical mount and a tilting table be easier to manufactur and adjust. (I'm thinking tilt the table like a bandsaw table)
ian
Good suggestions
For the height gauge setting, he'd probably be able to do the following
1-insert bit2-lower ####'y until top of bit is level with the top of the table3-move vertical gauge that moves with the router ####'y until 0 is level with a fixed pointer4-Lock it down
The vertical guage ####'y can be as simple as ruler with a slot in it, held fast with a thumb screw.
I think the motor should tilt, not the table. This makes handling larger or longer stock easier. With band-saws, tilting the cutting ####'y is just a harder, more complicated thing to do. The ones that do it are usually called ship's saws.
The height adjustment should also be a worm gear arrangement, not a bevel as drawn. The worm gear does a better job of "self braking" so the height does not change. A locking knob as with TS's is probably some safe insurance on that, too.
Alright, you're not insane. In any case, JESVS what number of routers will I require? There'll be the trimmer (or is that a few), the amazing hand held, a lighter hand held, one in a regular switch table, one in this shifting base thingy with its own table, one for https://allroutertables.com/best-router-table/
Soo, a shifting base is accessible, however what might be said about a table addition with an eliptical opening?
was taking a gander at the shifting table on an axle sander today and this string made me wonder, consider the possibility that the switch table shifted. Comparably an idea
After 17 years (and the last 18 months of isolation) we should have him examined again before passing judgement on his mental health.
You've covered a lot of ground in this thread, I'll apologize in advance it I repeat what others have already said.
IMO, most retail router tables are not worth the price. A thin steel frame and a top that's usually too small. I would either buy/build an extension for the tablesaw, where you already have a good fence and table top (platform) to to set a router in. Or I would build a dedicated router table (which I did) to house the router and accessories. I made mine with a large enough top to support large work and a fence long enough for a good reference surface.
Just build what you want/need for the type of work you do. I think this dead horse has been beaten enough.
I'm not much of a philosopher when it comes to my woodworking hobby, so may be missing the flow of this thread. I just want to make nice things while enjoying doing it. My router table journey has spanned 35 years, and yet, until recently, I continued to dread using the router whether freehand or mounted under my commercial router table. It was a loud, violent, messy endeavor.
Bob Van Dyke's video series on this topic was an eye opener for me and I highly recommend it (FWW, Sep 04, 2018). What really impressed me was how simple a table and fence could be to facilitate fine work. With that knowledge in mind, I also reviewed Matt Kenny's excellent video ( FWW Aug 07, 2012) series on actually building a router table. I incorporated some of his design (his fence is especially good) and methods into building my own.
If at all possible, in my opinion, a router table should incorporate one of the excellent router lifts on the market (greatly improves convenience and precision), have good sub-table dust collection, and a fence that augments the dust collection while supporting easily interchangeable and replaceable fences (sacrificial and zero clearance).
If you have the unpaid time to spare, you can come up with a fine table that fits your needs better than any commercial version, and have many dollars left over to spend on nice boards with which to feed the beast.
I now look forward to using my router table rather than trying how to figure out how to avoid projects that require it.
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