Why use a micro bevel? If you spend all kinds of time getting a really nice 30 degree bevel on a plane blade, why knock off the edge with a 35 degree micro bevel? Why not just use a straight 35 degree bevel?
Part of the reason I ask is that I got a new replacement plane blade with a micro bevel and ended up spending an hour honing out the micro bevel so that the blade had a straight 30 degree bevel. (It was an A2 blade, so getting rid of the micro bevel took some effort.)
It seems to me that a micro bevel is just a shortcut…
geoff
Replies
Its a shame you didn't ask the question before you went to the effort of removing the micro bevel. The good news is the bevel is easy to put back now that you've "corrected" the mistake. I am sure that those who come behind me will try and explain how a micro bevel is useful and if you genuinely want to know, there are hundreds of excellent articles available through the internet. BTW, Lie Nielson, just as one example, recommends a 5 degree micro bevel for most uses.
The purpose of a micro bevel is to make REsharpening much, much faster.
Resharpening the entire primary bevel of an A2 stell blade will take at least a half hour with 1000 grit and another half hour at 8000 grit.
Resharpening a one degree 1/64" wide micro bevel will take 30 seconds at 1000 grit and another 30 seconds at 8000 grit.
The next resharpening will widen the micro bevel to about 1/32" and will take 40 seconds at each grit. The next resharpening after that will widen the micro bevel to about 3/64" and will take 50 seconds at each grit. After many, many, many hours of use and after resharpening eight or nine times (or until the micro bevel is about 1/4 of the primary bevel) it is time to grind the entire blade back to the primary bevel.
Depending on how often you use your planes, that might require regrinding back to primary every three or four years or even longer.
Chris
Depending on how often you use your planes, that might require regrinding back to primary every three or four years or even longer.
Three or four years? You must be joking.
"Three or four years? You must be joking."
Nope. My earlier post was a deliberate oversimplification in an attempt to explain the virtue of a micro bevel. In actual practice I get maybe three or four resharpenings before getting to the 1/64" micro bevel. The first couple resharpenings are three or four passes on the 1000 grit, or just enough to get a wire edge. Maybe 10 seconds total.
Each subsequent resharpening is just enough passes to get a wire, maybe two or three more passes each time. Then when I get a micro bevel of about 1/4 the size of the micro bevel, I go to a TWO degree micro bevel and repeat the process from the beginning. When the two degree micro bevel reaches the 1/4 of the primary bevel, I will repeat the process with a FIVE degree micro bevel. (My sharpening jig has no three or four degree stop position).
Now I admit to being a woodworking hobbyist at the intermediate level, and do one or two projects a year, so we may be coming at this from a different perspective. However my last major project was a 21" by 80" woodworkers bench made from 2X4 hem-fir lumber glued up such that the bench was 3 1/2 " thick. It took me about three or four hours of planing time (not counting time to measure flatness or twist or break time or all those other stop times for whatever). Needless to say, there was beaucoup Knots and grain reversal to contend with. About two thirds of the time was spent with the #7 jointer to get it flat and one third with the #4 1/2 smoother getting rid of tearout. I sharpened the jointer before I started, once in the middle and at the end when I was done. The smoother was sharpened at the start and at the end.
When I get to the point (not there yet) where I have a five degree micro bevel all the back to 1/4 of the primary bevel I will buy a grinder and a cool grinding wheel from LV and restore the primary bevel in one or two minutes.
Chris
I was interested to see that no Tormek users joined this discussion. That company feels that with the Tormek microbevels are unnecessary because it only takes a moment to regrind with the 1000 grit wheel, which can be followed by the rubber honing wheel. I find this to be true.
I have no doubt that the Tormek is super machine. Had I not already invested in good watersones, jigs and learning how to use them properly, I'd look hard at one. But they sure are spendy.
I think an $80 grinder, a $30 aluminum oxide wheel, and a $55 LV grinder tool rest jig set will do for me when the time comes to restore the primary bevel.
Chris
The purpose of a micro bevel is to make REsharpening much, much faster.
Is this the only reason? Just to make sharpening faster? Is there is reason that a microbevel works better than a straight bevel?
Would a plane with a 30 degree primary bevel and a 5 degree micro bevel work any differently than a single 35 degree bevel? Is it better than a straight 30 degree bevel.
I don't mean to get into a big discussion on sharpening. It has been discused ad nauseum before. I just see a LOT of people using a micro bevel and I'm not sure why. Maybe making resharpening faster is enough of a reason?
geoff
For me, one of the main advantages is quick angle changes; on my bevel-up planes, which I use a LOT, I can change the cutting angle in a very brief time, which for a trad. bench plane would be akin to changing the bed angle in about 2 minutes and having an infinite # of bed angles from which to choose (as opposed to the two choices that they offer--standard and York pitch.) I'd say that there are fewer advantages with a bevel-down plane, but for the bevel-up system, those micro-bevels are what makes the world go round...(I'll be out of town for a few days, if you reply, I'll probably miss it...)CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
"and ended up spending an hour honing out the micro bevel so that the blade had a straight 30 degree bevel."
I use three micro bevels, not one and the reason............
I can't afford an hour to spend on a plane iron, my time is too precious.
The principle is simple, in that it's the quickest way to get back into business, explained below:
1.) First micro bevel is 1000 grit.
2.) Second micro bevel is 4000 grit and the angle is increased by 1 degree, as it is quicker to do a second micro bevel than re-hone the whole first micro bevel to a finer grit.
3.) Third micro bevel is 8000 grit and the angle is again increased by 1 degree, as it takes only seconds to add the final bevel rather than re-hone the whole thing.
Hope that explains it.
Edited 9/18/2005 1:45 pm ET by Willie
Putting a micro bevel on a new blade is not desirable.
It might help in resharpening but ...
I don't get nicks in my tools in my hand tools and the amount of time to resharpen is measured in less than several minutes. Perhaps less than one minute.
I even resharpen my 735 planer blades to the original bevel. 3 diamond laps and the work is done in a reasonable amount of time.
I don't use microbevels therefore I never need to regrind. Any time saved in interim honings using microbevels is given back during regrinds when the microbevel gets too big.
Boss,
Are you talking about plane irons?
Have you ever looked carefully at the wear on a plane iron between sharpenings and the amount of wear on each side, front (flat) and back (bevel)?
It takes me a loooong time before I have to work on the main bevel and if this becomes necessary, it's done on a wet grinder.
I'm sure with more careful analysis you will change your ways.
Folks,
This endless back and forth about sharpening really seems pointless. Maybe I'm missing out on something, but I just do a standard quick resharpen with three oil stones, slap the blade back in and tally ho!
I almost always hand plane and then scrape all my panels, so I use the planes alot.
I get nice thin shavings out of my old beat up stanley planes and the work looks great.The planes are nicely tuned, but I really can't eat up alot of time worrying about gilding lillies.
Frank
Frank,
Why three(3) oil stones? I assume we are talking about sharpening or honing and not grinding. I just want to be clear here-grinding is not sharpening or honing.To me sharpening and honing are the same thing.
The subject will never end-mythology is involved.
I also get nice shavings from my Stanleys and Records-they are also oldish , but not beat up. ;)Philip Marcou
Maybe I'm confused. I hardly ever grind a blade- maybe once every two years or so.
I use a coarse stone if really dull, then ####, SA, black ark. Maybe a little strop. I don't microbevel.
Maybe my work isn't as good as some out there. I'm just a weekend hack and no pro cabinet maker.
Frank
I work wood exclusively with hand tools. I don't have a power grinder. As has been done for hundreds of years, I don't hone microbevels. I grind, by hand on 60 grit sandpaper, when an edge gets nicked.
Boss,
If you put 20 fellers in one room and you talk about sharpening, you will encounter several heated discussions and 20 different methods.
The full moon theory mentioned earlier, is new to me, but perhaps it has some value.
I did not live yet a 100 years ago, so my method is designed for year 2005, where time is both short and expensive, but who knows perhaps the old timers had it right all along and us new guys are off track.
I don't think for the same angle the lumber sees any difference, so happy honing.
I have invested several $$$ in the latest LN and a few Veritas toys, but honestly my #6 Stanley Baily, made around 1930, with a sweetheart cutter, is still my favorite.
Who knows, perhaps it's those three micro bevels making all the difference. Or does it have something to do with the full moon?
Nothing saves time like no re-grinds.
bald, you just answered your own question.
The micro bevel can be honed several times before having to re hone the main bevel (As you did)
The additional five degrees added by the micro bevel, helps to avoid chipping of it's edge,( being so as it is a mite blunter). (not duller)and not as fragile as an acute angled knife edge.
If you understand what a chip breaker does on a plane, you'll understand that slight bevel tends to lift the chip clear of the work and reduces wedging in of the blade. Steinmetz
Wow, I am sure glad we cleared that up!!!!!!
I'm not sure we've cleared it up.I'm curious as to how many camber their plane edges:http://www.amgron.clara.net/planingpoints/edgeplaning/squareedgeindex.htm
I camber my smoothers (#3 and #4) and my big jack (#605-1/2) . The rest stay square.The older I get, the better I was....
I camber smoothers and use a microbevel.
DavidC
I microbevel everything. Except carving tools - or turning tools.
Bear in mind, that sometimes if you're hollow grinding on a wheel, just honing flat provides you with the microbevel.
The older I get, the better I was....
I'm afraid my microbevel is somewhat less scientifically applied than some. I grind/sharpen to a primary bevel using a honing guide. then I raise up the jig roller up off of the stone and hone the secondary bevel.
When it comes time to rehone, I just press my down on the primary bevel which levers the blade up into my hand, I grasp it and lift it a bit more and hone. If I can feel the raised burr I know I'm at a good angle, if not I tilt it up further until I can feel the burr.
Kinda casual but it works for me!
David C
unscientific, but I do the same.
I have a Vertitas honing guide, but i don't use it very often.
Do it by eye, and learn a feel for sharpening.The older I get, the better I was....
I only sharpen and hone my blades when there is a full moon. The extra pull of gravity from the opposite direction of the sun causes a more balanced edge. Gourd rattles and a little dance beforehand helps too.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
I decided to put these posts to the test.I micro beveled, didn't micro bevel, used a tormek, used a veritas jig, sand paper, 3 oil stones, ceramic, waterstones etc.
The only post that stands up to the testing is Mike's, only sharpen your tools on a full moon.I got perfect results on a full moon, the dance part needs a lot of work.
mike
I guess one could always rig up a jig for dragging the blades on the pavement behind a pickup. But, I think it would have to be a Ford pickup. The other makes don't seem to work to well.
Seriously, I have a 1" x 8" fine grit (grey) stone I purchased at Sears that I mount on my lathe using a #2 morse taper. I run it at 200 rpm, use a tool rest, and lubricate with a shallow dish water pan setting on the bed of the lathe. Once the blade is straight and all the nicks are out, I hone, using a wooden home made jig, with 600, 1000, and 1200 grit w/d paper glued to the back of my diamond laps. Lastly I strop on a piece of belly leather that is impregnated with white rouge. Touch up and re-stroping takes maybe 5 minutes. Wham-bam, thank ya mam! ( I did have to true up the wheel a tad before using)
I guess my bevel would be called a 'macro' bevel cause I make it about 1/16" wide, initially. I usually have to resharpen the blade before the bevel gets to 1/8" wide.
Oh yeah, total cost for my setup, not counting the diamond laps, was about $25. I don't use the diamond side of my laps for much any more.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)PlaneWood
You had me at the gourd rattles and full moon. There was no need to bring old Ford pickups into the sharpening sales pitch.
For the dead serious sharpeners: For the final step I use an old leather guitar strap (two feet of "throw") glued to a piece of plywood that has dog holes at each end that will let it lock into the bench top. It is impregnated with BOTH jeweler's rouge and .5 micron diamond paste (I'm nothing if not from the "More is Better" University). It works. It gets things better than razor sharp (I even re-sharpen my old utility razor blades).
Cheers. Hope you don't get hit by the hurricane, Mike. If another one comes this way, I think I'm going to go "Lieutenant Dan" (from "Forest Gump") on it.
Can I buy your DVD for $75? I can never remember when to chant.
Thanks, Metod
I'll keep that in mind when it comes time to regrind the primary bevel.
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