Hi to all,
I am looking for a wide belt sander for my furniture shop and was wondering if any one had any sugestions on brands. I only have single phase 120v or 220v. I use a lot of highly figured woods such as Qiulted maple and curly koa. I currently have a Performax 16-32 drum sander which is nice but is too slow. I don’t need a large one possibly 15 or 16 inches wide with open end and would prefer a belt instead of a drum.
Thanks for your help
Replies
I'm in the same boat. So far I'm thinking I'll buy the 6 X 89" edge belt sander by General (http://www.general.ca). My reasons for liking this machine are: resonable reputation for quality, price, decent power, cast iron tables and nearby dealers. I think woodcraft sells them in the states. Does anyone have experience with this machine or a preference for another?
I think the sander you are asking about (6 X 89) is a different kind than the OP was asking about. In any case I have one (Powermatic), and I find it to be enormoously handy. However, I would urge you to consider the model with the oscillating device -- since without it, pieces tend to burn. http://www.general.ca/pagemach/machines/15005a.html********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
An edge sander and widebelt are totally different sanders. The oscillation on an edge sander is nice but not really nessary to prevent burning. The oscillation really keeps the lines from being too predominant. The way we compensate for non oscillating is to angle the table slightly so it's askew of the belt travel and move the piece along the table as you sand. You couldn't tell the difference with this technique between oscillating and non oscillating esge sanders. I started in the factories with all kinds of sanders you don't even see any more. We had 4 distinct type of stroke sanders including a double belt through feed. One of the strangest sanders was a drawer sander where instead of a drum on the working edge it had a piece of iron angle where the belt did a quick 90 degree turn so you could sand the dovetails of a lipped lipped drawer. The belt was facing up to the ceiling and 12" wide. I should try to find a pic and it's probably hard to visualize. Haven't seen one since the 70's.
Re reading the original post it's clear you are right. I'm usually snacking when reading knots and this is a indicator that I can't multitask. Yet another reason for me to not chew gum while operating machinery.
A wide belt still has a drum. The best ones are the type with a platen. The platen is what seperates the finish sander from the drum sander. With a platen you can go right to staining from the sander. With a drum sander or a widebelt without the platen you must hand or random orbit sand to remove the drum marks.
Another way to deal with highly figured woods is a helical planer head and a stroke sander. Widebelts typically take a lot of power. Our 24" minimax widebelt has a 15 hp motor on a three phase 40 amp circuit . A stroke sander is typically 3 hp. You can also go right to finishing from the stroke sander. Most people don't even know what a stroke sander is but I would recommend a stroke sander over a drum sander for pretty much all applications.
I see the smaller ones are in the 5 hp range but no platen. You willl notice on the Grizzly site the 24" and up feature a platen. A platen will save you tons of time and extra work. I would not buy a widebelt sander without a platen. A platenless sander is pretty much the same as a drum sander but the paper lasts longer and is quicker to change than a drum sander.
Edited 2/21/2007 4:09 pm ET by RickL
I've used my 18" Grizzly wide belt sander(without a platen) for 8 months now and I've never had to sand out drum marks, so I can't relate. True they aren't fast and don't take off a lot of material as they aren't thicknessing machines. I plane down close to where I want to be then wide belt the rest to avoid all tear out and snipe and to insure a nice consistently flat surface. I"ve never had to re-sand after running a board thru my wide belt other than to take it down to a finer grit,which I would just change the belt to do. Generally though my planer does a good enough job of finishing that I don't need to sand ,except when I'm working with wood that's highly figured.
DannyEdited 3/8/2007 3:40 am ET by brownmanEdited 3/8/2007 3:41 am ET by brownman
Edited 3/8/2007 3:43 am ET by brownman
I've been workign with widebelts, stroke sanders, etc. since 73 in factories and small shops. If you put a stain on the board that was sanded with no platen there truly is a difference in the finish. You need to run a widebelt with a platen and run a board through the drum only and you will see a noted difference. It's even visible on a side by side comparison before putting a stain on but the stain really brings it out. Each shop does things differently but I've not heard of any furniture grade stuff coming right off a planer with no sanding or at least scraping.. In one factory we never went over 120 grit as the darker stains came out too light. Millwork is a totally different animal and I think everyone here mavybe talking apples, oranges and kumquats.Rick
Edited 3/8/2007 6:43 pm ET by RickL
I second the recommendation for a stroke sander. They are far more versatile than a wide belt unless you intend to use it for thicknessing.
It does take a bit of practice to get it right, but it's a breeze once you "get it". As a 17-year-old apprentice, it took me about a day and a half of practice to get it down (Man, my arms hurt, but how I miss tha machine). You could probably pick one up a lot cheaper than a wide belt too.
Nat
Rick is right about the platen. I have the Bridgewood 16 X 48" open end belt sander and it has a platen. It is sold by Wilke Machinery and is a BSW-15B and has a combo head meaning it has an adjustable platen. It has a 5HP Baldor(USA) motor and Square D controls. I have had it for about 2 years and I have it on a HTC mobile base and it is easy to move around. It needs a good dust system ( I have an Onieda ) and a 30 amp breaker. I could not part with this machine. A buddy of mine and I this winter ran 800' of ash for trim out his house and he wanted to try all the grits without hand sanding ( 150, 180, 220 ) he bought the belts and we ran some test pieces and I sprayed them without using my Festool 6"RO and I was amazed at the quality of finish he got. He did not stain it so I don't know if you would have had machine marks from the stain, but you could not see any machine marks after one coat of sealer and two coat of lacquer. We used my edge sander on the edges 108" X 6". I have run a 28" table top through it without any problems, just have to turn it around.
How well does that Bridgewood machine work as a thicknesser? Does it take a reasonable amount of material in each pass or is it a weeny nibbler like the Performax drum sanders? Do you get lap marks when doing double passes on wide material? And finally, why is it green? (Sorry, just kidding on that last one.....)Thanks
In general widebelts are not thicknessers. When I was in the shop with the 42" 20 hp SCMI .010" was max for a wide piece. It takes lots of power to remove stock with a sander. Don't expect more than a few thousandths with 5 hp. Our 25" Minimax widebelt platen sander does a nice job but it's 15 hp and isn't going to compare to a planer. It takes a long time to remove an 1/8". A 5 hp widebelt isn't going to take much more than a drum sander although it will last longer between paper changes as it has more surface area and runs cooler. Faster paper changes is a plus but folks don't really understand the differences betwen the sanders. I'm still a big advocate of the stroke sander in the small shop over a drum sander. The key is to prep your stock a little better in the initial face jointing and the stroke sander will do a fantastic job. It can actaully do things a widebelt can't such as using a J weight belt s for radiused pieces, sanding dovetailed drawers, etc.
If you are on a very tight budget and have the room I would agree with Dave and Rick. Stroke sanders take up quite a bit of room and they are limited in length of stock. I ran 16'x 6" baseboard through my oscillating 16 X 48 belt sander, you could not do that on a stroke sander. Good stroke sanders are hard to find and are very expensive when you get a commercial unit $5,000 for a decent unit. Commercial used machines are all three phase, and the single phase units are small. I do not have the room for such a wide machine and you have to be able to scratch your belly and tap your head at the same time. They take some getting use to. A cabinet shop wanted to give me their old one , but it took up 10' of wall space I don't have. It was an ornate cast iron beauty ( 3 phase integrated motor no motor swap possible)
To answer your questions; I do not use this machine for heavy stock removal. Rick is right when he said that they are not designed for that purpose. I have a 20" spiralhead planer for that purpose. The spiral cutterhead leaves such a smooth finish that I am able to start with 150 grit on my belt sander. The way I use this machine is planer to beltsander 150, then 180, then Festool 6" RO sander. Then I spray Mohawk pre-cat sanding sealer, sand with Mikra 5" abranet 400 grit on my Festool 5" RO, then 2 coats of Mohawk 25 sheen Pre-Cat lacquer and rub it out with gray 3M scotchbrites. If I stain ( usually don't because I build mostly with cherry and walnut) I'll use Mohawk NGR stains. I hope this helps.
Terry
Some of your stroke sander info isn't always true. They do take up space.
They don't typically cost that much as most people don't have a clue about these great old machines . Obviously from a dealer they cost more. I bought a Mattison from a guy in VT for $700 no questions asked as I know the machine inside and out. This model can have the pedestals set any distance apart and the way it's designed I could easily sand 16' x 6" baseboard even if the pedestals were set 8' apart as it would have the clearance. The three phase motor is no big deal and can be easily dealt with a static converter. We chose the static for the Mattison as it was cheap $125 and the slight loss of power was minor. I've also been refurbing machines for many years from factories to small shops so I know all the possible problems and solutions. Stroke sanders aren't that hard to find and it's more a regional thing. In New England we have quite a lot of old machinery kicking around.
If you had the platen on your sander you would not need to random orbit sand and could go right into finishing.
I have a basement shop and getting one of those cast iron beauties down there would be a trick but like I said I don't have the room. I used that old beast I was talking about for years, but when they bought a 37" Timesaver it just gathered dust ( literally ). I know I really don't have to use my RO on the final sand, but I do it when the whole project is together and I am happier with the results. Maybe it is my OCD kicking in, if I'm going to stain I hand sand everything to make sure I didn't burnish anything. Time and money are not issues for me because I am a retired science teacher and I build everything for my wife and kids in the winter and walleye and salmon fish the rest of the time. Living in the Great Lake State has it's advantages.
For the most part most guys are sanding panels and smaller stuff. They don't really know how to properly state what they really want to do to get the best options for their application. Seems to me FWW should do a article to explain why you should use what sander for what application. Advantages and disadvantages. There's probably not too many of us left who know all this stuff.
Stroke sanders aren't all big and heavy. The other plus is it's the most simple and affordable sander that one could make on a small budget. FWW had plans for a simple one years ago.
Sanding must be the least favorite thing I do. I would rather clean fish than sand so I guess we are all trying to find the perfect sander that does not exist. I see Norm even has a Timersaver tucked into the corner of the Yankee Workshop. Everybody has so many sanders because I think they are looking for something that does not exist. Sanding just sucks.( If you have a Fein vac)
Hey Rick, $700 Man I hate to tell you, but you have been robbed. Ha, I got My Oakley double belt, with a 7.5 hp on the main belt, and a 5 hp on the back belt. it had two tables end to end for doing church pews. How does $400 sound for a deal?For anyone interested, You should keep an eye on the online auctions. Stroke-sanders show up there all of the time, and usually go pretty cheap. The same holds true for wide belt sanders also, but most will be 3 ph, and most of the readers of this site have to their shops.
Rootles, you are a rogue....you better churn out one church pew for use in your workshop, before you are struck down from above....
Incidentally, your Mini Cool oilair mist blower for machine work-what make is it? I got a very neat one made by Nogas- Israeli firm in Shilo, Israel- excellent kit.Philip Marcou
Hey Mook, Now don't you be worrying about me there. i am happy to give the Lord a hand doing his work every chance I get. I happen to be in the process of some of that now. One little job I have partly finished is for a couple of little banister rails that kinda bend around the pulpits to assist some of the elders up the steps on their way to the choir-loft. Uh, Does that count?That little Mister that I posted a link to a while back was from LittleMachineShop.com. That is a fine little tool isn't it? I was glad to hear that you got one. You know come to think of it. Maybe that was the problem you were having with you grinder. You know that you are supposed to spray it onto the wheel, not into the switch don't you. Ha.Have you found the problem with that grinder yet? I have a good friend who owns a motor shop that I was meaning to ask his thoughts about those symptoms that you described.
Keith, the grinder problem was short-lived, it was a dicky capacitor, proved by substitution of another one from my stock of useful junk.
I shall look up LittleMachine Shop.com to see if mine is superior.Philip Marcou
I wasn't robbed. The Mattison is a good solid simple and flexible machine. The pedestals can be put at any distance apart and the 2 hp is plenty of power for the machine.
I've seen them for less and it was a matter of someone finally willing to take the plunge and it was available at the moment. I wasn't my money but it did mke things a lot easier for folks in that shop so it was a no brainer. Nice to hear there are some folks who still realize the virtues of a stroke sander. Too bad drum sanders are over rated.
Terry:
Not to get too far off thread, but what planer and cutterhead do you have that leave such a nice finish?
dave
Dave,
I have a Bridgewood BW-120 PS spiral head planer. With those carbide inserts I have not changed the blades in the three years I have owned it and I have built about 10 pieces of furniture and ran a 800 bd.ft. of ash for trim in a buddies house. I still have 3 more faces on the carbide inserts. My son even ran baltic birch plywood through it ( when I was gone). I still don't have one nick, that used to give me all those machine marks with my old powermatic 12" steel blades. I sure don't miss changing blades; I almost cut a tendon changing blades on that planer ( 15 stitches ).
Terry
Edited 3/6/2007 8:24 am ET by terrylee86
I think Rick is absolutely right in recommending a stroke sander. With some practice you will be able to get great results out of it, and it's more versatile as well. My shop has both machines, but if I were a small business there's no doubt that I'd manage quite well with the stroke sander alone. Use 80 grit paper to flatten wide slabs. Use 240 grit to clean up F&P doors. Use the drum at the end for shaping curves. The great joy of a stroke sander is its simplicity. By contrast the wide belt is an extremely complex and far more expensive machine.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Another plus is the power requirements are much lower with a stroke sander. When we put in the 25" Minimax widebelt we had to add a 40 amp three phase circuit for the 15 hp motor. Many stroke sanders are 2 to 3 hp. Big difference in cost.
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