Replies

1. 
   RickL | Nov 27, 2006 11:51pm | #1

   Those are not widebelt sanders, those are drum sanders. Big difference. Have you considered a stroke sander for your sanding needs??  Pretty inexpensive compared to drum and widebelt sanders and you can go right to finishing. On a drum sander you must random orbit sand to remove the sander marks. On a widebelt the models with the platen can go right into the finishing department as well.  Stroke sanders are little known by many pros and amateurs but it's great option. We always had a stroke sander even with a widebelt. Great for veneer work. One of the top marquetry experts has a minimax stroke sander in his shop. I've seen them used for as little as $200 for an industrail Mattison stroke sander. They used to have articles about them in the early days of FWW. Still a good option. I know of metal shops that use them as well.

   http://www.grizzly.com/products/G5394

1. 
   DickL | Nov 29, 2006 03:51am | #13

   For those interested in building their own stroke sander, I recommend the design of my friend, Mike Rekoff, God rest his soul, that appeared in Vol. 1, Number 3 of FWW. Mike was a gifted engineer and a talented woodworker.

2. 
   Rich14 | Nov 28, 2006 12:56am | #2

   Steve,

   I couldn't agree more with Rick about stroke sanders. Stroke sanders are one of the best kept secrets in wood working. I have never used any of the wide drum sanders of which the Performax is one model. So I have no hands on experience with them, but I have heard many, many who are not at all happy with them (apologies to everyone who finds they do the job).

   True wide belt sanders are a different story, but they are far more expensive than the drum types.

   A stroke sander is capable of doing beautiful work on a wide variety of jobs, but is especially good at panels. It is also one of the few pieces of gear that actually can be built as a home brew project and work as well as a commercial unit. After all, it is a pretty low-tech affair. Just a belt, loosely moving between 2 wide pulleys that you press down on the work with a pad or platten.

1. 
   Swede42 | Nov 28, 2006 08:28am | #3

   Actually to all of you. I was just getting ready to get myself a 16" Performax sander and had been looking for some info from users on how they worked.  The idea looks good and I see David Marks on the DIY channel using one to dimension thin stock so I thought maybe this would be a nice little addition to my rather small but well equipped shop. I do all kinds of work from cabinets to carving cabriole legs and only very small quantities of any of them. I play at it. I'm retired and not in the greatest health and sanding is hard for me for long periods especially on things like coffee table tops etc.

   So here I am lucky enough to run into you guys. If you were here I'd buy you a beer. Keep this string going!

   Ron

2. 
   philip | Nov 28, 2006 12:05pm | #4

   Rich,
   "A stroke sander is capable of doing beautiful work on a wide variety of jobs, but is especially good at panels. It is also one of the few pieces of gear that actually can be built as a home brew project and work as well as a commercial unit. After all, it is a pretty low-tech affair. Just a belt, loosely moving between 2 wide pulleys that you press down on the work with a pad or platten."
   That is absolutely quite correct. I built one when I needed to sand several thousand coat hangers and it is just tremendous-best bit of Macgyvering I ever did.The only drawbacks are they do require a fair amount of space and if you run a belt 6 inches wide ( normal) then this requires at least 3 horse power to sand efficiently. In theory the rule of thumb is "one horse per inch of width" , but one can get away with 2 horse, which is what I have. Then there is the dust- lots of it-requires serious extraction....
   Can show pictures if any body is interested.Philip Marcou

1. 
   dgreen | Nov 28, 2006 12:11pm | #5

   I would be interested.------------------------------------

    The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools. -- Herbert Spencer (1891)

1. 
   RickL | Nov 28, 2006 04:11pm | #8

   http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?s=96466c16624088dccfcf2d923ec33824&t=29715&highlight=stroke+sander

   See post #15 for an example of the  build your own stroke sander as featured in FWW years ago.

2. 
   philip | Nov 29, 2006 10:12am | #14

   There you go . The pictures can do most of the talking. Belt dimensions are 4800mmx 150mm. Motor 2 hp 3phase 2800rpm tefc. The drive drum and idler drum are hollow square wood, the tracking/tensioning drum is solid wood with bearing retainers screwed on. Table slides on angle iron vee up with ball bearings.I crowned both the idler and the tracking drums-probably not necessary but it gives no problem.The table has about 2 inches vertical movementto accommodate most frames etc, but can be lowered to other positions.Very simple construction just requires a wall for fixing to. At the moment dust extraction is , er , primitive, in the form of 3 hp dust bag type which is positoned when the machine is to work, with a hood.Angle iron frames, ordinary ball bearings and pillar block bearings.I used furniture grade hardwood- there was no need to balance the drums.
   The first job done with that was to sand flush 900 wooden coat hangers like the one pictured-another 8500 followed in subsequent years. Good for panels and smallish tops etc.
   The sanding pad is a wood blockwith cushioned graphite cloth.One simply usus the block with right hand whilst leftslides the table back and forth- the handle on the table is such that it is grasped from below-so that no fingers are above the table.Philip Marcou

   
1. 
   ring | Nov 29, 2006 04:30pm | #15

   Philip,I love your sander. I have a boring but reliable Italian-made industrial stroke sander, but yours has soul.
   BTW, the main motor on mine is 3 HP. (6" belt, 3 meters long) It never flinches.regards,
   DR

2. 
   philip | Nov 30, 2006 10:59am | #16

   Yep, I can imagine what you have there-bet it has it's own fan to extract dust?Philip Marcou

3. 
   ring | Nov 30, 2006 02:25pm | #17

   Yes, of course. Nothing fancy - a 1 HP dust collector that's integral to the machine. The thing creates an amazing amount of dust.Actually, we don't use the stroke sander much anymore, since we got an oscillating drum sander. It's still the best thing going for tabletops and such, but the drum sander has the advantage of turning out perfectly uniform thickness, which is nice when you're making piles of cabinet doors.DR

4. 
   Rich14 | Nov 30, 2006 04:24pm | #18

   Ring, Which drum sander are you using? Rich

5. 
   ring | Nov 30, 2006 05:29pm | #19

   Rich,It's a SCM (Italia) model WIN 63. Single belt, width is 25".DR

6. 
   RickL | Nov 30, 2006 06:00pm | #20

   That would be a widebelt and not a drum sander I believe, as SCM doesn't make an oscillating drum sander. The only oscillating drum sander is from the new Oliver.  People forget to take in the fact you are in Israel and your sources for tools are entirely different from the states or even other parts of the world. Folks toss the term widebelt and drum pretty loosely and folks get confused. Two entirely different animals.

   I still think stroke sanders are good machines too have even if you have a widebelt. Much more versatile than a widebelt for many applications.

   We are getting a 25" widebelt with platen made by SCMI for our shop in a few days. Wish we room to set up our stroke sander. Hopefully we can sell the Woodmaster drum sander.

7. 
   ring | Nov 30, 2006 06:42pm | #21

   You're quite right about the sander. It's properly called a "Wide Belt Calibrating Sander". In general, the machines on the market here are European ones, and at the industrial level I think they're much the same throughout the world. It's the contractor or hobbyist machines which are very different in the US than everywhere else.BTW, if you're getting the same SCMI model, I'd be interested to hear how it works for you.best,
   DR

2. 
   RickL | Nov 28, 2006 04:05pm | #6

   Disagree on the one horse per inch of width. 2 hp is pretty much common and anything over 6" isn't really necessary. I've set up and run many kinds of stroke sanders over the years. 4" with flexible belts is great for doing curved edges. Ever use a graphite mitt???

   http://www.proengcorp.com/graphite_accessories.htm#top%20of%20page

   These folks are the top supplier of graphite sanding products. The handblock for a stroke sander is a key element to make it work best. We use lead shot in the handblock to weigh it down and put 1/4" felt between the graphite pad and block to cushion it. I've seen folks get discouraged because the block was make wrong so they got dismal results. I could write a full article on the handblock making alone never mind the proper usage of a stroke sander. Old FWW used to have a few articles on SS's. Even was a good one on making your own.

   I even set up a custom metal shop with a stroke sander to use on brass and stainless steel. Worked like a charm.

1. 
   philip | Nov 28, 2006 09:53pm | #9

   Rick,
   I have not used the graphite mit, but use a hand held wood block which has the graphite slip cloth glued to it-no problems there with heat, friction or resistance and it lasts for years.
   I quoted the "one horse per inch of width" from my handbook entitled " Coated Abrasives-Modern Tool of Industry- Institute of Coated Abrasives Manufacturers." It is American and we know that the horses there suffer from impotency, so they need more than others.
   Although for the purposes of the type of stroke sander we talk of one can do with 2 horse, the book is talking of EFFICIENT operation i.e no slowing under load and optimum power use. Those industrial sanders prove the point- they move at much higher feet per minute than we would expect from our self built one.
   The sander I built was based on the ones I saw in FWW .Philip Marcou

1. 
   Ron01960 | Nov 29, 2006 12:16am | #10

   How about a free stroke sander on Craigs list today Boston-free.wysong 3-phase 13' stroke sander FREE call 508-963-2713

2. 
   philip | Nov 29, 2006 03:23am | #11

   Good for someone with lots of space and three phase power-and possibly the abiltty to re-build the thing.Philip Marcou

3. 
   RickL | Nov 29, 2006 03:32am | #12

   You might try putting a firm felt pad between the wood block and graphite. I learned how to make the sanding blocks from a 30 year veteran of stroke sander use. It really is a better handblock. Plus adding lead shot to add some weight is a big help. I was fortunate or maybe unfortunate to spend many hours in a production shop using all kinds of stroke sanders. We had them with flex belts and mitts, handblock type, pneumatic fulcrum pads to double belted through feed types. And we also had a 36" timesaver widebelt.

3. 
   Rich14 | Nov 28, 2006 04:05pm | #7

   phillip, I didn't think about the dust extraction needs! A big hood?