Replies

1. 
   DavidxDoud | Jun 30, 2005 02:17am | #1

   heart side up,  humidity maintained the same,  top and bottom -

    

   "there's enough for everyone"
1. 
   user-549173 | Jun 30, 2005 07:54am | #2

   I'm surprised but will take your word for it rather than get into the "why's?" but it sounds like I'd be tossing away the flooring that was milled without heart side up. A couple of additional questions: Since it would be best to install the flooring in the fall (lower humidity here in the northeast) am I better off waiting till then to purchase the kiln dried wood flooring? This seems to be the way to go but would appreciate input.
   ANDDo you think 5" wide flooring-- 4" face to face boards --- are okay vis-a-vis the cupping issue or will I regret it. I am leaning towards maple but we might end up with either oak or ash ( a compromise bet the two). Thanks for the helpculann

1. 
   Yogi | Jun 30, 2005 11:31pm | #3

   I planked our floors with 1x6"common pine 14 years ago-  Troweled out construction adhesive, laid the boards edge to edge as I went and drilled, screwed and plugged-  Put a clear finish, something like gym seal over it-  Nothing's cupped, cracked or moved since-

2. 
   DavidxDoud | Jul 02, 2005 02:32pm | #10

   I concur with Ian - when you said 'wide board',  I had visions of 12"-16" planks like I have used in cabin restorations - pre-milled commercial T&G flooring at 4" should be predisposed to behave well -

    humidity differentials between the bottom and top of the boards is the common cause of cupping - generally,  high humidity underneath from a crawl space and air conditioning above in the living space = cupping

   if your floor is above an unconditioned space,  I'd be sure to use a vapor barrier -

    "there's enough for everyone"

2. 
   IanDG | Jul 01, 2005 01:26am | #4

   The short answer is that if you've large swings in humidity, nothing will keep the boards from cupping.

   The best time to lay the floor is between seasons -- not necessarily when the humidity is lowest -- and be sure you open the packs, spread out the boards and acclimatise in place for 7-10 days.

   I'd use Bostik's Best polyurethane adhesive, applied to the subfloor with a 1/8" notched trowel as well as mechanical fixings.

   BTW, the most stable cut is quarter-sawn.

   IanDG

3. 
   VomSorb | Jul 01, 2005 07:42pm | #5

   Some movement and the resulting uneveness is part of the appeal of wide plank flooring.  Drastic cupping should not happen, but some seasonal movement is inevitable even in reclaimed heart pine.

4. 
   IanDG | Jul 01, 2005 08:20pm | #6

   The type of finish you use can also affect the cupping. A finish that will allow the timber to breathe [like penetrative oil] will allow the the moisture content to equalise through the depth of the board whereas an impermeable film finish will only allow the board to dry out from the underside.

   BTW, I wouldn't really consider 4" wide, laid measure, as really wide plank flooring -- I'd even blind-nail that width, with the adhesive as well, of course.

   IanDG

1. 
   Wolfman | Jul 01, 2005 08:59pm | #7

   I am also getting ready to install some 4" white oak T&G flooring.  The wood floor I took out had paper under it, is this not used anymore? Should I use adhesive to bond it to the subfloor?

   Has anyone used Waterlox as a finish on new floors? It seems like it would be easy to repair scratches etc. when they occur.

   Thanks,

   B.O.B.

1. 
   IanDG | Jul 02, 2005 05:32am | #9

   "Should I use adhesive to bond it to the subfloor?"

   I always glue-down and blind nail, using a bead of construction adhesive at about 16" centers. That should hold fine on 4" wide boards.

   "Has anyone used Waterlox as a finish on new floors? It seems like it would be easy to repair scratches etc. when they occur."

   It does make it easier to repair scratches but the downside is it's easier to scratch.

   IanDG

1. 
   TXJon | Jul 04, 2005 04:33am | #12

   I grew a flooring question today, and thought of you.

   Will epoxy paint serve as an adequate moisture barrier for a wood floor on a concrete slab?  The slab has no moisture barrier itself, and is not below grade.

   My thought was epoxy paint, followed by 3/4" glued down ply, then wood floor nailed to the ply.  Any need for tar paper between the ply and wood? Is the whole idea just bad?

   Thanks,

   Jon

1. 
   IanDG | Jul 04, 2005 06:08am | #13

   I can offer you two alternatives:-

   The area of the concrete where the ply will go is coated with a trowellable bitumen adhesive [1/4" notched trowel] and the ply is laid into the wet bitumen and fixed down with tapcons -- 50 to an 8' x 4' sheet. The idea is that the wet bitumen seals around the tapcons and forms a moisture barrier.
   or

   Coat the concrete with Bostik's moisture-proof membrane and when it's dry, glue down the ply sheets using Bostik's 'Best' polyurethane adhesive.

   Both alternatives will let you sleep sound at night -- the first one is cheaper but a lot more work and mess.

   There's no need for the tarpaper between the ply and the timber.

   IanDG

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 05, 2005 04:47pm | #18

   Ian, I have seen your work and read many of your posts so I have some respect for your knowledge.  But I don't understand why you say the tar paper is not needed.  I thopught it was to prevent squeeks and provide some resistance to moistrure migration from below.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

3. 
   IanDG | Jul 05, 2005 10:06pm | #19

   Ed,

   " I don't understand why you say the tar paper is not needed. I thought it was to prevent squeeks and provide some resistance to moisture migration from below."

   Moisture migration first --- if there is moisture below it doesn't make much sense to stop it at the level of the underside of the flooring and allow the sub-floor and bearers to be affected. A moisture-proof membrane should be installed at the level of the crawl-space or concrete slab and if that's done then the tar paper isn't necessary for moisture control.

   Squeaks -- the main cause of squeaks is the board riding up and down on a nail which hasn't been driven home fully or has pulled up because the sub-floor had a dip in it that wasn't filled before laying. It seems counter-intuitive to put a compressible material between flooring and sub-floor, thus allowing more vertical movement -- personally I prefer to put a bead of construction adhesive at 16" centers while nailing which ensures that the board doesn't subsequently lift.

   The tar paper does have one advantage -- the boards slide on it so cramping up is much easier.

   IanDG

4. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 05, 2005 10:27pm | #20

   Ok, that's a reasonable answer.

   Here's a small floor I recently did.  Prefinished maple and bloodwood.  I borrowed the pattern from your web site ... thanks!

   View Image

    

   I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

   Edited 7/5/2005 3:28 pm ET by Ed Hilton

   Edited 7/5/2005 3:29 pm ET by Ed Hilton

   
5. 
   IanDG | Jul 06, 2005 12:35am | #21

   Beautiful looking floor, Ed -- will the bloodwood hold that color?

   The pattern is 'Gothic' and like most parquet patterns is several hundred years old.

   IanDG

6. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 06, 2005 01:18am | #23

   I don't know if the bloodwood will keep the sharp color, but there will always be a distinct contrast with the maple, ansd that's what's important.

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 04, 2005 08:30pm | #14

   using a bead of construction adhesive ..

   Works wonders that stuff does!

2. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 05, 2005 06:24am | #16

   Bob I used 5 coats of Waterlox on my kitchen floors and that was 2 years ago and the stuff is fantastic.  I dont see any scratches to speak of but if you do, touch up is simple.  I replaced the mantle on my kitchen fireplace with bluestone and I used waterlox on that too.  Worked great on the floors and the mantle.  I even used it on the hearth tiles too.  I dont think I would use anything else after this.  By the Way, the floors were not stained.  That is the color of 250 y/o pine floors when waterlox is applied to it.  One tid bit.......keep your windows open and have a couple fans handyWicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

   
1. 
   Wolfman | Jul 05, 2005 03:45pm | #17

   CJ,

   Nice looking floors! The reason I asked about Waterlox is I remember reading something about it originally being manufactured for gymnasium floors. I've used it on furniture and like how easy it is to use. My brother-in-law refinished his floors, used poly, and wound up with a lot of bubbles in the finish. I think he used water based, ugh. I've used oil based poly in the past with success, but if Waterlox works nicely, I'll give that a try.

   Bob

2. 
   FastEddie1 | Jul 06, 2005 01:15am | #22

   John, that cabinet in the center of the picture ... are thge doors a different wood?  Or stained a different color?

    I'm sorry, I thought you wanted it done the right way.

1. 
   cherryjohn | Jul 06, 2005 04:31am | #24

   Actually those doors were interior shutters put on in 1779 when the house was built.  They were removed in 1830 during a renovation and put in the attic.  They have never been painted or stained.  That is the color that white pine will darken to over 225 years or so with natural Watcos applied.  The wood on the rest of the cabinet is the subflooring in the kitchen.  We had to replace even the floor joists to get the floor to carry the load of modern appliances and that Island that weighs about 400# but it is situated in the middle of the floor which is 14 ft wide ( Kitchen is 14X28).  The sub floors wrere run thru a thickness planer to get to dinemsion.  All I have to do now is wait about 200 years and it will blend nicely.  The panel over the fireplace is this same subflooring and the raised panel is 225 y/o white pine unpainted, not stained, with Watcos applied and not planed.

   Wicked Decent Woodworks

   (oldest woodworking shop in NH)

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

   Edited 7/6/2005 10:42 pm ET by CHERRYJOHN

5. 
   user-221516 | Jul 01, 2005 09:30pm | #8

   I live in East Texas and we very seldom have humidity less than 70%. Three years ago I installed random width, random length pine flooring on a peir and beam floor system in my home. I did all the work myself and have a beautiful floor that has remained demensionally stable through the past three years. The flooring was purchased directly from a mill in Arkansas and was milled exclusively for flooring. On the back side of each board was at least three 1/8" x 1/4" relief cuts to control cupping. I cut all the random lengths and moved the flooring into the house to acclimate for seven days and check the moisture content with a meter and installed at 7% moisture content. I sanded and stained the floors and applied one coat of a sealer and three finish coats of water bourne polyurethane by Bona Keme. The process took less than five days from start of installation to finished product. The finish does dry very quickly and can be walked on within hours but it is recommended to wait a week before placing heavy furniture. I opted to use the Bona Keme because of low odor and qick drying time. By the way the installation time was long because I worked at my day job each day and on the floor after hours.  The widths varied from 4" to 8". I did living room and loft 800 sq ft.

6. 
   TomS | Jul 03, 2005 06:42am | #11

   culann,

   I used 1x12 pine for my family room (16x20) about 15 years ago.  I ran a lap on the edges and I cut 3 shallow grooves on the underside on my tablesaw.  I had read somewhere that this would help stop cupping on a wide floor.  I don't know if that was necessary but along with the proper orientation of the growth rings we've had no cupping yet.  I didn't glue my floor down but used reproduction nails into the joists.

   Tom

7. 
   frenchy | Jul 05, 2005 12:33am | #15

   Culann,

    I thought you were talking about wide board flooring,  To me that's flooring wider than 20 inches not just five or six..   Wide boards like that need to be installed when the humidity is at it's highest.  They swell a lot when  they gain moisture due to humidity.  Then  you jam them as tight as you can when they are swelled up as much as they ever will.   When they shrink under the dryness of winter heating they will open up the gaps but with wide enough splines at least you won't see  the sub floor below.. I make my splines out of the same wood except when I get clever and use differant woods next to each other..

     You can't use regular tongue and groove shapers to make these boards the tongue will come out when the wood shrinks in the winter. 

     There are two ways to hold those big boys down.. The first is either face nailing or face screwing, Maybe with wooden plugs covering the screw heads.. (you can use either the same wood and orient the grain trying to hide the plugs or you can contrasting woods and make a staement with the plugs) 

     The second way is to drill holes in the subflooring somewhat larger then the screws you intend to use (to allow for future wood movement) then from below you insert screws up thru the subflooring  (Making sure they don't go more than !/2 way thru the finish flooring to allow for future sanding)  With that method you wind up properly holding the wide planks in place and don't have the distraction of either face nails or plugs.