I’m looking to make a big upgrade from the old trusty benchtop DeWalt and wondering what everyone suggests.
I like the Laguna 22″ Sheartec and am wondering if anyone has experience with that product line.
I’m open to anything; really I like the Laguna because I’ve got a few other machines from them and have no complaints. (yet…they’re pretty new)
My only want is width. i want it as wide as i can afford. this Laguna is the top of what i would pay and 22 looks to be as wide as it gets before a big price jump into the industrial stuff.
https://beavertools.com/mplanpx2275-0130-laguna-px-22-sheartec-ii-7-5hp-1ph-22in-planer.html
Replies
Have you looked at the used market? Some amazing deals on old Olivers, Powermatics, etc.
https://www.woodweb.com/cgi-bin/exchanges/machinery.cgi
Course the new ones have amazing cutter heads - and I really love the finish the helix cutters leave even on the toughest of wood grains.
I have a Felder and love it. One of the best tools in the shop and well worth the investment.
Have you considered a full planer/thicknesser machine of the European type? This uses one drum with blades (straight or the little square thingies) to both plane (you say "joint") and thickness (you say "plane") a plank. One starts by passing one face and one edge over the top planer ("jointer") table, followed by swinging that table out of the way then passing, the plank flat side/edge down, through the thicknesser ("planer").
Such machines are available in Europe/the UK at a usual width capacity of 10 or 12 inches with a similar gape for the plank thickness. You can pass a 12" X 12" lump over and through such a machine (assuming you can lift it). :-)
The footprint is generally smaller than two separate US style jointer and planer machines. The power is usually around 3 - 5hp. The chip take off tube is 4" or 6" diameter. Best of all, no skinny 6" jointer limit.
Here's an example that may even be available to buy in the USA!
https://www.felder-group.com/en-gb/products/planers-c1948/planer-thicknesser-a3-p142343
They have the Format 4 Dual-51, which is the widest @20".
I'd love to have one, but they cost a lot more than the 6k I want to stay under.
Im also not sure what the added cost of coming across the pond would be.
One day.
Not tempted to crack the piggy bank for this one then?
https://woodchuckers.com/products/a3-31-sp-hammer-a3-31-310mm-12-jointer-planer-w-spiral-carbide-head-wheels-ex-table
There's a second hand one currently for sale in Blighty for under £3000. Perhaps such a thing can be found in the US, since Hammer do distribute and sell there?
I haven't taken a look at the used market, to be honest.
I prefer to buy something new for the sake of fewer worries.
The issue for me is that I need at least 20" width, or I would just keep my old DeWalt. It's got a spiral head and a 13" capacity.
From what I saw, F4D51 is the only machine they have that would meet my needs.
I'm going to look around and see what I can find.
I COULD pay more, but I don't want to. I also don't want to regret such a large purchase.
I really do like the J/P combo idea, as space is a major concern for me.
I've only heard praise for those machines that might force the wallet to open more.
I don’t know anything about the cutter head on that machine. For the money and 2” less capacity, I like the 20” Jet with helical head at $4,800. Same HP I believe as the Laguna. Jet has a 5 year warranty to Laguna’s 2 years. Good reviews on that Jet too.
Update: after posting this I was curious as to what type of helical head Jet uses. I was under the false impression that since Powermatic uses a Byrd, Jet would too. I contacted Jet who confirmed they use a proprietary helical head and not a Byrd. Jet doesn’t like to advertise what kind of helical head they use which is suspicious. Anyway I retract my recommendation.
Jet has always given me a similar vibe to Laguna.
I have a Jet Jointer. Small one.
No real issues. It works. But I don't really like it. It constantly needs adjusting.
I've heard bad whisperings about Jet from others about various things.
Never heard anyone praise them. Seems like a "good enough" brand.
Thanks for that update. I agree it seems suspicious. Companies are usually very quick to tout their proprietary stuff.
Look up CWI. I have a 12" helical J/P that I am very happy with. They have a 20" helical under 6K. 22" does sound MUCH sexier than 20" though.
Never heard of them until now.
I like the 5-year warranty and the simpler electronics.
I don't see the screens, smooth interfaces, and fancy buttons/dials as pluses.
I just feel its pain when I need to work on the machine and proprietary parts are waiting to force my wallet open.
I like that this CWI doesn't have any of that.
It is pricey, considering two fewer inches of capacity and 2.5HP less.
Your endorsement goes a long way, though.
I have that exact Laguna machine. My Rockler was shipped an extra one accidentally when a customer ordered one so they were selling it new for the price of a floor model. So far, I’m really happy with it. It leaves a great finish and the segmented indeed roller and speed control let me work through a lot of wood quickly. I have two complaints though: The first is the amount of snipe it leaves, which is actually very little but I upgraded from a Jet 12” dual jointer/planer which left virtually none so it just took some getting used to. In fairness, I would have had to get used to the snipe no matter what machine I purchased so it’s not really a knock on Laguna. My only really complaint is their customer service. They shipped my machine with the dust shroud for the 16” model so I had to get them to ship me a replacement, which they did but it was a pain dealing with them. Check out the BBB page, it’s riddled with complaints about their customer service. I’m not saying my experience was so bad that I wouldn’t buy from them again but I’d certainly have to think about it.
This is great information, Thank you.
Customer service is a massive deal to me. Not because I fear if I need to utilize it, but because, in my mind, it's a direct signifier of the rest of the company, right down to the quality of the product.
Coupled with the fact that they have a 2-year warranty when numerous other companies have 5, it gives me a bad feeling that won't go away...They won't stand behind their $6,000 machine for more than a couple of years. That says something.
I own 2 Lagunas and haven't had issues, but I don't trust them for some reason, and this type of feedback is why.
I might bite the bullet and go for a Felder F4d51 after all...Just don't know about the shipping
Yeah, I’m with you. If your CS is suspect then so are you. Like I said, I’m happy with the machine and especially the price I paid but I’m likely to look elsewhere for my next purchase.
The shop I am in has the same planer. from the factory it had both leading and trailing snipe. I have never seen a planer that had leading snipe until this one.. working with tech support the infeed and outfeed roller were set to within specs.. which did not remove the snipe and tech support then suggested removing some of the roller pressure which didn't help..
After seeing this post:
https://www.instagram.com/p/C2JBpBlu4su/
I adjust the bed roller, infeed roller, chip breaker , outfeed roller
bed roller = 0.000"
infeed roller = -0.005" (below) (spec is 0.6mm-0.8mm or -0.024-0.031" below)
chip breaker = -0.005 (spec is 0.00)
outfeed roller = -0.010 (spec is 0.6mm-0.8mm or -0.024-0.031" below)
these above settings eliminated the leading snipe and almost eliminated the trailing snipe (some times its there some times its not). it also made the snipe go from 4.5" on end of the board to around 2.5".
the only issue now is if you want to take a very light cut say 0.005-0.010 off the infeed roller has a tough time engaging.. which may be due to the segmented infeed roller which may mean the infeed roller/ chip breaker needs to come down to say -0.010". I just have not had time to go back in and make an adjustment.
Overall the planer is pretty good the variable infeed rate is a plus..
the machine in the shop is capable of planing down to 1/16-3/32" thick with an auxiliary bed.
The method the dust hood is mount is terrible. Some of the dust hood screws need to be removed to open the machine..
I was looking at new Felder prices. Damn those prices are way up.
What does a new Felder F4 D41 go for? That thing is only 20".
Felder has a bunch of used D951's for sale, if you don't mind dropping down from F4 to straight Felder. https://www.world4machines.com/en-us/used-machines/jointer-planers-jointersplaners-c55426
I saw an Oliver joiner at my local Woodcraft. I don't know anything about their machines, but they do have a 20" planer. https://olivermachinery.net/machines/planers
So, that is interesting. That's the exact same machine that CWI sells, but it's 1K less.
They are identical except for the hand-wheel location and a roller on the bottom.
Looks like CWI upgraded the cheap-o readout with a slightly less cheap-o one.
Powermatic and Grizzly's 20" is ALSO the SAME machine.
Further looking and, i found Jet, Shop fox, South Bend all sell the same machine going as low as 3400.
This makes me interested in who builds this machine and if I can buy an unbranded one.
A quick search shows they are all made by Geetech out of Asia.
I guess now im very curious to know who all has this machine in their shop and for feedback on it. It seems to be the ONLY 20" out there....Even Laguna uses it.
You can tell they purposefully don't show the innards that match exactly, but you can see it's the same. They just designed a fancier shell for it and tacked on 2K+
Honestly, I'm a little disheartened
As you found, all these machines are clones. In Canada there is this 22 inches planer avail that is 1/3 heavier than Laguna for the same hp and same Price, Gryzzly should be able to supply it as it is a cousin of Busy Bee. https://www.busybeetools.com/products/22in-industrial-planer-7-5hp
It could be a really good thing to buy such a dominating clone that's fully saturated the market.
Or it could be a really bad thing.
If everyone has to have this machine, it must be a good machine then, right? i just hate to buy into it...
This makes me want to spring for a Felder more than anything.
The innards aren’t the same. Different cutter heads, rollers, etc.
There’re some knowledgeable fellows on the LumberJocks forum who have debated the differences in detail over the years. I’m sure many have debated them here.
You sure? they look exactly the same. This is Laguna vs the clone...I guess everyone just really likes that orange color that's inside every one of them.
I believe each has small differences yes. they upfit them im not saying they don't.
My point is they are taking the same package and making minor adjustments.
When I was researching the cutter head on the Jet I ran across many forum posts debating the differences between machines.
I'm getting machine-envy - for the capacity and power not the configuration of those thicknessers (I mean planers).
Despite the various forum posts, magazine articles and other stuff one reads in the WW world, I never understand why anyone wants just the thicknesser (your planer) without the planer (your jointer). I know you can build a jig (it would be a bluddy big 'un for a 20" capacity machine) to repudiate the need for a jointer but ..... why not just buy a combined planer-thicknesser and do the job reet? :-)
The CWI has 30 more teeth than the laguna if I read it right...
After realizing the Laguna is actually the same, I'd definitely go with the CWI out of the 2.
I'm not sure if more teeth would be worth the extra grand over the cheaper clones.
I've only ever had one spiral, so I don't know how much a difference more teeth makes, though.
The quote from CWI was 4200 btw. little less than listed on the site. they may even go lower if negotiated in a savvy manner.
I got them to come down quite a bit... and that was during the Great Canadian Trade War of 2018.
Hammer machines look complicated to set up, that’s what scares me (calibration). If you need it serviced that is another problem. It’s too early for me, sort of like the electric car.
Ha ha - electric cars are far simpler than ICE cars, also longer lasting, are less expensive to service and cost near nowt to run if you also get some solar panels. Their initial cost is also coming down; and second-hand becoming available.
Those Hammer machines look more complicated because they have much more facility to finely adjust than a lot of lesser machines, My own experience (with an old-fashioned Scheppach planer thicknesser - German good quality before they went downmarket) is that, once set up, those settings rarely go out even after years of working in my particular case.
I've had that machine over 20 years now and needed only to periodically resharpen the knives and to renew one drive belt. Only a 10" jointing and thicknessing capacity but I've never had the need for more.
Yup those are the positives as I understand them.
What you describe is also my understanding. It’s the initial calibration. You get through that and you’re probably good to go. I’d be confident enough after that. Being older I don’t have the time or patience required to dilly dally with manufacturers as I did when I was younger. I still drive old cars with high mileage because I don’t want computers on my cars. Just a personal choice.
I know people have had reps come out to commission these machines. I'm sure it costs, but wth is another grand on 20+?
I'm with you on the car thing.
This Ram 4500 I have is the last new vehicle I'll ever buy. The over-engineering, proprietary parts and planned obsolescence are out of hand and are only on track to get MUCH worse.
Which is the only thing i DO like about the clone machines. The lack of those, I mean
That’s true. I would only do it if it were replacing existing, working machines. Just in case there was a long wait for them to come out. Some report 6 month wait times. It’s disappointing they haven’t made the machine easier to set up after all this time as successful as they are. However, many changes would be needed.
I would love the J/P combo. For some reason, they aren't as available as the dedicated ones. That's likely because they are more complicated to produce in the first place.
As we see, rebranding a relatively simple, dedicated machine is much easier, faster, and cheaper.
Ive made my mind up.
Thank you to everyone who chimed it. it really influenced my choice and is greatly appreciated.
I did NOT expect to be going in the direction I am now. but I'm very glad I am. and even more excited.
I'm definitely going to take the hit for either the F4D51 or an SCM of the same capability.
I am still waiting on quotes for the Format 4, but the SCM of the same capabilities is $20,000
My reasoning:
The feedback I've seen all over the place is all high praise (I'd hope so for that money)
I don't like the idea of buying a major clone, even if there are differences in teeth number, rollers, readouts, etc. To me, it shows a lack of innovation and laziness on the company's part, and I don't feel right about spending so much on what seems to be so little.
Yes, I know it sounds silly and is likely a poor financial choice, but I'd rather pay three times the price for something that is ITS OWN.
It's a machine that will easily last my life and longer, and I'll be able to take great pride in owning it, which is essential for me.
Also, the J/P combo just makes infinitely more sense to me than dedicated machines.
At the end of the day, I'm sure those clone machines are also fantastic. Im sure they work perfectly because they are everywhere and woodworkers 1000X better than ill ever be have been using them a long time.
I get as much joy from using gorgeous machines as i do actually making things so for me....a tool porn addict. It's worth the 20k
I'll be postponing this purchase until I get the new shop figured out.