I’m new to the forum. I am an amateur hobbyist but really enjoy working with wood. I have built a few projects, but in the last 2 years I haven’t taken the time to work on anything. My wife gave me as a recent birthday gift a 2-day class in CT taught by Gary Rogowski and it has really rekindled my interest in the hobby.
I have a workshop space in my basement which is about 13’6″ x 14′. After taking account for the storage cabinets along one wall and a workbench along the opposite wall, the 14′ dimension gets reduced to about 10′. I have some power tools including a contractor table saw, a Craftsman planer, a CM saw, a drill press, a couple of routers, etc.
I have already determined that I need to buy a bandsaw (the majority of articles on the topic put that at or near the top of the priority list). I’m looking seriously at the Laguna 16″ saw (not the HD), with the hope that I’ll never have to buy another. I need to get some 220v power to my shop, but I’ll find somebody to do that for me.
Now to the question: I am seriously considering buying a combination machine rather than buying other machines one by one. The Laguna X31 has a table saw, planer, jointer, shaper, and slot mortiser. If you take affordability out of the equation, my main question is whether the space I have available is just too small to accommodate a combination machine? What is the typical “usage envelope” around a machine like this? I don’t expect to be ripping huge sheets of plywood. I do plan to start making some stools and smaller pieces of furniture.
Two other related questions: in what way is a shaper different from a router mounted in a router table? Also, what exactly is a slot mortiser used for?
I would appreciate any guidance on how crazy the idea is, and if anybody has any strong views on the Laguna machines I suspect that will come through too… 🙂
Brian
Replies
i have just set up the exact saw you are looking at. so far, so good.
plenty of power, nice fit and finish, seems to be a quality machine.
i think with the size of your shop this would fit the bill. the trolly system on this machine makes it prety mobile too!
Brian:
I have a Robland X-31 and a Laguna 16HD. You have ample room for both although you may have some trouble handling sheet goods, which is a principal use of the sliding table on the X-31. There is a Robland X-31 group you should join. There is a wealth of experience and information on this device. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RoblandX-31/
You can often find used units for sale.
After using mine for 3 years, I would offer you the following observations:
The 12" jointer is great
I have NEVER used the shaper
I have used the mortiser quite a bit until I got a Woodrat which is much easier to use for this purpose
The sliding table is very handy sometimes, but unless you are doing lots of dealing with sheet goods, a crosscut sled on a regular table saw would be just as good.
Getting all of the moving parts aligned is a tough job for most new owners.
The 12" jointer sure is NICE.
Shapers scare the bejesus out of me and you can do virtually everything with a router that you can with a shaper and it is a lot less exciting experience.
Best wishes
Stephen J. Gaal
Hey Brian,
I bought a MiniMax CU300 combo machine a couple of years ago, and consider it the best machine desicion I have ever made. The space required is far less than the space required of the infeed and outfeed lanes of five separate machines.
Like I said, I've had it for a couple of years. I have used every feature of it with the exception of the mortising table. I plan to make a couple of raised panal shop doors this summer, so I expect to use that soon.
Just to be contrary, I'll say that I much prefer to use the shaper on the MiniMax, than to overload my router and router table; and even when the router is up to the job, I feel safer using the shaper. And the noise is a whole lot more managable as well.
Good luck with your choice,
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the feedback. I went back to my 2003 issue of FWW where they reviewed the combination machines. The Laguna review was more than a little negative and in the end they suggested going for the MM in that price range. I called Laguna to give them a chance to respond/refute some of the criticisms in the article and wasn't all that impressed with their response.
I've taken a closer look at the MM website and spoke to someone there yesterday. It seems like the LAB 300N woud be a very appropriate solution. It's about $1,500 more (after negotiating a bit on price) than the Laguna, but spread out over the years I expect to have it and the hours I hope to use it, that's by no means a show-stopper. I'm going to a WW show in NJ this weekend where both Laguna and MM will be. Neither will have the specific machines I'm interested in at the show, but at least I can touch and feel them. I may also be able to negotiate a good "show" deal if I agree to order both the LAB 300N and the S45 bandsaw at the show. I know what I can get them from MM for directly, so maybe I can beat that. Together the two are ~ $8,500.
It's going to be more professional grade tools than my current skill level deserves, and I realize it will not make me a better woodworker (I'm trying to prevent another excited discussion similar to the LN Chisel thread!), but I'm space constrained, and I'm lucky to have a budget to buy something that hopefully won't have to be replaced in the foreseeable future. In the event I end up losing interest or not having the time to use this machinery, I'm sure someone on this board will be happy to buy them from me!
Thanks for the feedback everybody,
Brian
so how was the show over the weekend? what were your perceptions on the laguna vs. minimax after having laid hands on them both? did you buy?
dave
Hi. I went to the show last weekend and as it turned out, Minimax was there, but Laguna wasn't (although I understood they were going to be). Must have been my mistake. And yes, I did buy. The Minimax machines are beautifully made, although you have to pay for it. They are running a year-end special for the CU 300 Smart coupled with an MM16 bandsaw. I ordered the pair. Hello, credit card company? My skill level does not deserve these machines, but I do have the budget available for them, and I truly believe they depreciate slowly, so the downside is pretty limited if I were ever to lose interest in woodworking. Believe it or not, they should be here either late this week or early next week. I'll keep you updated.
Brian
that's great! congrats on the new toys. your original post has got me going on searching for everything i can fnd about minimax and laguna. let us know how it all goes with setup, customer service, first impressions on use, etc. thanks,
dave
Congrats. As a fellow CU300 Smart owner, I know you will love your machine. The Laguna/Minimax debate over their bandsaws will rage for a while, I'm sure. But there is nothing that compares with the MiniMax combo machines at that price point. I upgraded from a Robland X31 to the MiniMax two years ago, and am still impressed with the quality and precision of the MiniMax.Jim Eddy
http://www.jameseddywoodworks.com
Thanks - the thing I'm losing sleep over now is whether or not the machine will be able to get INTO my shop. The door is wide enough, but the machine has to go around a 90 degree turn before it gets there. I have a rigger coming next Wednesday to look at the situation. I can widen the turn by 6-8" by "modifying" the corner wall. I'd rather not have to do it, but the sales person at Mini Max did an effective job of pointing out that it somebody dropped the saw off at my house, that I'd find some way to get it into the shop. He's got a point there. I'll figure it out, hopefully with a minimum of damage!
I have a MM20 bandsaw, as far as shop machines go I can't imagine having anything that would outperform the MM (in that size range). In the 2 years I have had this machine I have never had to call MM, but they keep calling me and asking what they can do for me. Seriously, the experience with MM as a company has made me consider the CU300 Smart more than once, I'll probably get it eventually as there is not much that I don't find appealing about that combo machine.I'm not going to ding Laguna, they had some issues with customer service but it appears (from various message boards) that they have taken great strides in fixing that and their machines look solid, but you won't ever regret buying a MM.
Thanks guys for the feedback. Here's the update:
Roadway Trucking brought the machines to my house on Friday. The CU 300 was right at the back of the truck so the 65-yr old driver with 2 bad knees wouldn't have to move it far to get it onto the lift gate. The crated machine was wider than the lift gate, so it hung off a bit. It was a little worrisome, but I figured hey, this guy's a professional. When he started to lower it, the lift gate jerked initially (as they often do), and it was enough to start the crate tipping off the back of the truck. It fell a full 4 feet to the driveway and then rolled over on it's side. The guy said "You know, it might not be damaged". Well, be that as it may, I politely declined to accept it.
Mini-max was excellent through the ordeal. They contacted the trucking company and strongly urged them to do whatever was necessary to get the beast out of my driveway that day, rather than Tuesday or Wednesday of the following week. At 5pm the truck and a flat-bed wrecker showed up. The wrecker lowered the flatbed against the base of the crate and used nylon straps and the winch on the truck to right the machine onto the flatbed. Then the pallet jack was used to put it back onto the Roadway truck. WHAT A MESS.
Mini-max has already shipped a replacement (via a different trucking company!) and it will probably arrive early next week. I've moved the MM16 into the shop. My 220v line should be finished being installed today, so I'll be able to fire it up this week. It's an impressive beast!
I had a rigger evaluate the path into the shop and he didn't seem particularly troubled by the project. The only way to get it in will be to roll the machine onto its side, then stand it up on one of the short ends. The rigger seems confident they can do it. We may have to remove one or more of the tables which will be a project to realign, but we'll know that better when we have the machine to actually look at! When the time comes to sell this house, that machine will be sold with it!
I seem to rememeber a couple of stories on the minimax user group about machines being bounced off driveways. One guy even had a CU300 slide back into him and break his artificial hip! What a bummer. You get all excited to play with a new toy and then crash! At least no one got hurt and you were smart enough to refuse the shipment. Good luck explaining the "giant woodworking machine included" clause to your real estate agent!
I don't place any blame with Mini Max. It didn't appear to me that trucking company was really using the right equipment or the right guy for a piece this large. You can be rest assured that when the next machine arrives (early next week), that I'll be sure they are aware of what happened to the first one, and if they have the same equipment setup, I might quietly suggest that they put a strap around the machine before they start to lower the lift gate. I was close to suggesting that the first time, but I held my tongue. Never again...
After reading a couple of horror stories about CU300s and short lift gates, I was considering hiring a flat bed wrecker to deliver the machine. In the end, I decided to let MiniMax ship it their way but I had six of my biggest friends there to help unload it when it came.It was good that they were there, because just as had been described by others, the machine was too big for the lift gate, and the shipping company loaded it anyway. Without fourteen hands holding it up onto the gate as it lowered, mine would have met the same fate as yours.I'm glad that MiniMax is treating you well, and that you have another machine on the way. They really are a quality company and a quality product.Tom
sorry to hear about the drop. let us know how it goes when the new one arrives (and you get the bansaw up and running). living vicariously,dave
Too bad the initial delivery didn't go well. I used my Kubota tractor to lower a Unisaw & DJ-20 into the basement before the stairs went up. Maybe you could do this too? Tilting crated machinery on side sounds like asking for trouble, IMHO.
In any event, you'll have to build an at-grade shop in the future for those neat tools!
For those of you who have been following the story, I'm proud to say it has a happy ending.... I received the new machine on Wednesday and it got off the truck with the help of a second person from the trucking company. I uncrated everything on Wednesday night and fortunately the rigging company that I had been in touch with was available to make the move on Friday afternoon.
It was clear from the machine dimensions that it would need to be turned onto it's side because only the 35.25" height dimension would make it through the 36" door into the shop. The second issue was whether the machine would make the 90 degree turn in the hallway before getting to the shop door (I hadn't planned on this when I finished the basement!). It was an easy decision based on discussion with Mini Max to remove the infeed side of the jointer table to decrease the overall length of that dimension. I was trying not to remove the TS slider, but it became evident that would have to come off also. The riggers turned the machine onto blocks on the side with the shaper access door (fewest controls to try to avoid), then put a movers dolly under it and lowered it off the blocks. The machine was actually pretty stable and in balance on the dolly. They moved it down the hallway and got it into the corner and it seemed to fill the whole space. My first reaction was "Oh jeez, it's not going to work". But there actually was some wiggle room and they were able to rotate it bit by bit in that corner, got it turned (without damaging the machine or the walls) and moved it to the door. I had to take off one piece of the vertical door stop trim for them to get it through, but that was the only alteration! They cleaned up some of their equipment while I mounted the wheels before they turned the machine back onto its feet.
I have almost everything cleaned up, wired the machine and tested all 3 motors, and everything seems to be working as it should. I didn't have a bad time remounting the tables, but I will need to do some test milling to confirm the alignment. I'm a bit intimidated by the machine, but I'll take it slow and over time figure things out.
Phew! Brian
congrats on getting the machine inside and set up. would you mind posting some pics when you have it totally up and running? dave
I'll be glad to post some pictures (a couple of the moving process and the machine all set up). I'll get them taken this weekend and post them (if I can figure out how to do so) before the end of the weekend.
Dave,
I apologize for not posting the pictures over the weekend. I ended up running out of time and I'm going to be crushed with work and on the road for most of the next 10 days. I won't forget about it though, and will post some pictures the weekend after next. All I accomplished with the machine this weekend was to clean the cosmoline off the rest of it, and joint, plane and rip one piece of cherry so I can at least claim I've done SOMETHING with it... :)
cool. whenever you get to it is no problem. i've ordered DVDs from both minimax and laguna. they haven't gotten here yet, but i'd like to hear your first impression of use after you throw some more wood at the machine. take it easy.dave
The slot mortiser is used to make mortises. It was designed to make the slots in both rails and stiles and insert loose tenons. Been using the slot mortiser for over 20 years and have used all the other methods such as chainsaw, chisel mortiser, maka type and find the slot mortiser is perfect for production or one offs. Simple, fast and perfectly accurate. Plus it doubles as a dowel drilling machine. All the shop in my area use slot mortisers as their choice of technique.
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled