Replies

1. 
   DennisS | Aug 21, 2002 12:28am | #1

   I finished a small chest some time ago using straight varnish. Sanded and wiped each coat until I had about 6 or 7 coats. Then proceeded with an old chalk board eraser, pumice and water moving to rottenstone and finally wax. It was the only way I could get rid of the imperfections similar to what you're describing. I'm sure my inexperience in finishing is the primary problem but for me I always plan on hand rubbing the last finish coat in order to get it really truely flat and speckl free.

   Dennis in Bellevue WA

   [email protected]

2. 
   tufenhundel | Aug 21, 2002 06:56am | #2

   If you are using wipe on poly, may I suggest gel varnishes.  Basically you get poly, wiped on, without the imperfections you experienced.

   I used to wipe on poly finishes and get the very same problems.  When I started my woodworking apprenticeship, the preferred finish there was Bartley Gel Varnish.  The shop is CONSTANTLY dusty, but with a gel varnish, we can lay one coat of finish in about 5 minutes, and it is dry to the touch.  Sure you will have to wait 5 hours for the next coat, but it will not collect any airborne particulates.  There are no sanding in between coats....it's almost fool proof.  I don't think it's as durable as regular poly, but the differential is not that significant.

   I get mine from http://www.kilianhardware.com/barpasvar.html, best price I found and no shipping charges.

   Good luck.

1. 
   woodshoplast | Aug 21, 2002 03:52pm | #3

   After looking at top this AM it looks pretty good, except! I can see two small areas where I sanded before the fourth coat. Obviously these areas are under poly. Will these areas disappear with another coat or do I need to sand it all off and start over again? Anyone know? thanks, agriffee

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 21, 2002 06:35pm | #4

   If you can see them now, more finish will not hide them.

   What finish are you using? Watco Danish Oil, or Watco Wipe On varnish?

   If you are using the varnish, you will not end up with a perfectly smooth finish. There will always be some little nibs unless you are working in a totally dust free environment. To get a smooth finish, you need to "finish the finish." The best way to do this if you are looking for a satin gloss finish is to let the finish fully cure until it no longer has an odor. This could be up to four weeks depending on temperature and humidity. Then apply a coat of furniture paste wax using either 0000 steel wool or even better, a gray scotchbrite pad. Work in the direction of the grain. Buff and get ready for the oohs and aahs.

   Edited 8/21/2002 1:41:23 PM ET by Howie

1. 
   woodshoplast | Aug 22, 2002 03:16am | #5

   I sanded out the bad spots then smoothed out with steel wool, added another coat. don't see the previous spots. using Watco -wipe on poly, thats all it says on can.  going to let dry overnight then steelwool and one final heavy coat. looking into the scotchbrite pad for later. Is that something you'd use in the kitchen? Thanks to all, agriffee

1. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 22, 2002 07:42pm | #6

   If its a wiping varnish, then be sure to apply enough coats. Thinned varnishes require 2-3 coats to equal one full strength brushed coat. I use at least six coats on top surfaces and even go to eight if I expect the surface to get hard use.

   Yes, you can use the scotchbrite or 0000 steel wool on kitchen items.

2. 
   RSRose | Aug 22, 2002 10:25pm | #7

   While on the subject of wipe-on poly finishes . . .

   I remember a message several months ago claiming that any poly varnish could be made into a "wiping" varnish by diluting it with solvent 50/50.

   I've tried a few wipe-on products lately with pretty good results, Minwax and Watco. I also tried making a wipe-on by diluting Minwax polyurethane varnish, high gloss (brushing variety) and several other polyurethanes with paint thinner (mineral spirits). The result was an unqualified failure as a wiping varnish. (Although I could still use the thinned varnish as a brushing varnish - in fact it was ridiculously easy to apply).

   The difference between the commercial wipe-on and my thinned brushing varnish was that the commercial version left a good gloss (thin) layer adhering to the wood even with firm wiping action, resulting in a pretty good "hand-rubbed" appearance. Whereas the thinned brushing varnish completely wiped off the surface, unless I applied it so gently that the rag was essentially a brush, leaving a trail of liquid as deep as a brush would do.

   Any other experiences with wiping poly varnish?

   Rich

   Edited 8/22/2002 3:40:40 PM ET by Rich Rose

3. 
   HowardAcheson | Aug 22, 2002 11:27pm | #8

   That has not been my experience at all. I have used McCloskey Heirloom varnish, Minwax Fast Dry Poly, and a couple of others. The mix ratio was about 50/50 using naphtha. I put the finish in wide plastic potato chip bowl, dunk an old tee shirt or white cotton sock and put it on about like the kid at Denny's wipes your table. Big,long strokes back and forth. Get the whole surface with one dunking. With naphtha, there generally isn't time to go back over before it is already getting tacky. The first two coats will not look good as the film thickness is so thin. Third and subsequent coats begin to build and six coats are minimum.

   I've used the Minwax Wiping product and it works fine. But, I don't think it is any better than a homebrew. It may be somewhat thicker but you can make the homebrew with a 60/40 ratio of varnish to naphtha and it would probably be about the same.

   Of course, what you are used to and what works best for you is what is important.

4. 
   RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 12:29am | #9

   Howie,

   Thanks. I have had no success at all, as I described with the Minwax or the Watco. I'll try the McCloskey, if I can find it, although, since the Minwax wiping Poly is working just as I had expected, I really don't have a "problem.' Just curious why I can't get my own mixture to work.

   I didn't use naphtha exactly because I wanted a little longer working time, thinking that the varnish might penetrate more, also. But if I hadn't had any paint thinner, I would have just reached for the naphtha.

   The reason that I started experimenting with poly was my dissatisfaction with the way that regular varnish was darkening some Padauk that I'm finishing.

   Rich

5. 
   BG | Aug 23, 2002 03:01am | #10

   Today at lunch I caught The American Woodworker (can't remember his name). He used the wiping varnish on mahogny but his ratio was a four to one, poly to mineral spirits.  Maybe that would help with the thickness issue?

6. 
   RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 03:32am | #12

   BG,

   I tried varying the mix, once 50/50 didn't work. 60/40, 80/20, eventually using the poly full strength. It just wouldn't wipe. Brush, yes. But wiping just removed all product from the surface. Poly is a very different animal. I'm glad that the Minwax Wiping Poly does work. Although, unlike regular poly it is quite amber. I had wanted a more water-white material. Their Poly-acrylic is water-white, but it's also water based, and that's a whole other set of problems.

   Rich

7. 
   BG | Aug 23, 2002 12:46pm | #13

   Rich ,

   That is good to know, thanks.  I'm about to embark on a perilous pursuit...re-finishing the our bedroom set.  I'm trying to get everything set up and tested before I begin so I can be assured of a good outcome and minimize downtime.  I'm listening hard to the various finishing experiences you all have had.  

8. 
   Gretchen | Aug 23, 2002 02:31pm | #14

   Whereas the thinned brushing varnish completely wiped off the surface, unless I applied it so gently that the rag was essentially a brush, leaving a trail of liquid as deep as a brush would do.

   My experience with making my own wiping varnish is the same as Howie's--no problems.  BUT it does take up to 4 coats before it begins to look like a finish is building. The first coats look awful.  I wonder if you have gone far enough.

   The other thing that must be done is to keep the mixture stirred (or for me especially because I use satin finish).  Have you done a number of coats before concluding that it is not going on?  And--not to be "obvious" you are diluting full strength varnish for sure. 

   But as you also say, you are satisfied with the commercial product.Gretchen

9. 
   RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 06:51pm | #16

   Gretchen,

   Thanks. This is quite frustrating. I was at about my 4th or 5th coat with my home-brew wipe-on poly mixture when I left my first message. It just was not building at all. It never left enough varnish on the surface to matter. Completly different experience with other products which I use as wipe-ons, including (as already mentioned) Minwax wiping Poly, Minwax Tung Oil Finish and many other home-brew wiping varnishes, all alkyd varnishes (non-poly).

   The Minwax Tung Oil Finish may or may not have tung oil in it. It's an oil/varnish mixture that builds beautifully. I can apply it much like French Polishing (after the abrasive phase of French polishing where one is laying down microscopically thin additions of shellac). It allows itself to be applied so that only a glistening addition to the last coat is apparent, just more shine, no perceptable film thickness. That's nice. I've gotten close to that with my own mixtures, but whatever that proprietary mixture is, it works nicely. It just imparts much too much color to a Padauk piece I am working on. I think that the Linseed oil and/or Tung oil components in it plus the amber color of the cured film are just too much.

   I can't get even close to that thin film technique with the poly mixtures, even the Minwax Wipe-on Poly, which I said was 'working.' It goes down as a thicker layer, and it does not have as nice a final surface, no matter how I rub it with 0000 steel wool or white or grey nylon or whatever.

   I'm going to keep trying for a while, my goal is to take advantage of the fact that poly doesn't develop the wood color as much as other concoctions, but I think I'm heading toward the conclusion that I don't like poly much at all as a rubbing type of finish. (So what else is new, Rich, everyone knows that!)

   Rich

10. 
    Gretchen | Aug 23, 2002 07:46pm | #17

    Well, just to clarify, I do not use poly--but you mention non-poly also.  Is your varnish (full strength, of course) completely stirred when you make your mixture?Gretchen

11. 
    RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 08:04pm | #18

    Yup.

    Rich

12. 
    HowardAcheson | Aug 23, 2002 09:11pm | #19

    Dick, you are dealing with two very different products when you use Minwax Wiping Varnish and Minwax Tung Oil Finish. The Wiping varnish is a thinned varnish that is really no different from a full strength varnish, only thinner, so it flows out easier and becomes tack free faster. If you apply six coats of the Wiping Varnish per the directions and apply 2-3 coats of a standard full strength vanish you will have essentially the same finish with the same film thickness.

    However, the Minwax Tung Oil finish--staying out of the "tung oil" issue--is an oil/varnish mixture. It's designed to be a non-building product. It's intent is to penetrate the surface (that's what the oil is for) and then the varnish seals the surface. Once the surface is sealed, the wood will not absorb more of the finish. After the first application has dried, when you come back and wipe subsequent coats, you remove more than 95% of all the finish you applied. Sooner or later, you will get an oil buildup that becomes gummy. Most finishers will recommend that not more than three coats be applied of an oil/varnish product.

    The point I am trying to make is that the two products have different purposes and use differing application methods.

    I am also confused about your statement that "poly doesn't develop the wood color as much as other concoctions". Poly has nothing to do with wood color. Polyurethane is merely an perfectly clear additive put into standard varnish to make it more scratch and heat resistant. It's the other resins (some are light, some are very amber) and the type of oil used in the mix that determines how much yellow or amber the varnish imparts to the wood. Varnish intended for exterior use will be more amber than interior varnishes as the exteriors are generally made with phenolic resin and UV inhibitors both of which add lots of yellow.

13. 
    RSRose | Aug 23, 2002 11:28pm | #20

    Howie,

    Uh, oh. A bit of confusement seems to be happening here . . . maybe due to some imprecise comments by me.

    I know that I'm dealing with 2 very different products in the Minwax Tung Oil Finish and the Minwax Wiping Poly. One of the problems in any of these kinds of discussions is that the manufacturer's name of the product seems to imply something specific or constraining about the product.

    I use Minwax Tung Oil finish not because of it's name or anything implied by its name, but for the characteristics of it's ingredients. I don't know exactly what is in there, except that it's a mixture of some alkyd varnish, and oil - maybe some tung oil, and maybe some linseed oil. It has attributes of both an oil and a wiping varnish. Its oils develop color in woods just like what happens when you apply pure oil. The first several coats, I flood it on, rub it in, keep it wet for 15-20 minutes or so, then wipe as much off as I can get off the wood. Those first few coats go much like applying oil to wood, but some varnish is being left on the surface. With the 2nd and more coats, I am using it more as a wiping varnish. I apply it with a French polishing type of motion, and application, after application, the finsh builds slowly and beautifully. Each application adds a very thin varnish layer that is as highly polished as a soft cloth "rubber" can make it. I don't need to scuff between coats, although I usually rub the surface down with a white nylon pad.

    I have been experiencing a little too much darkening of a Padauk piece with this method. The darkening is caused by both the oil component acting on the Padauk, developing the grain and color in the wood, and the overlying amber color of the varnish layers as they build. Before using other methods, I wanted to try Poly as a "wipe-on" or "rubbing" varnish, anticipating that a poly mixture, absent the oil component as described above would give me the surface film I'm after without the color development. It has, to some extent as I've described.

    So far, my efforts to turn several products, (intended by their manufacturers to be brushing poly varnish) into a "wipe-on poly varnish" have not been good. But using commercially prepared wipe on poly has worked as I anticipated regarding the effect of less "darkening" of the wood. But the resultant surface film has not been as lovely as I can get with the alkyd varnish present in Minwax "Tung Oil Finish."

    FWIW, the amber color of both Minwax Wipe on Poly and Minwax Tung Oil Finish are about the same as determined by letting both dry on a piece of glass - where  "color development" from the oil is obviously not a factor.

    Does that explain?

    Rich

    Edited 8/23/2002 4:29:52 PM ET by Rich Rose

14. 
    woodshoplast | Aug 23, 2002 03:19am | #11

    I couldn't find gray scotchbrite, got green. Can this dry pad be used to smooth poly without paste if I plan to apply more coats? I don't want to jump in and have to sand all off again. Have a couple of runs in poly. What do you think about laying the table on a bench so the poly can run smooth on the top. The side and legs did great perhaps because the poly could run smooth. I'm having all this trouble with top that I didn't have with legs and body of table. Thanks for your help. agriffee

15. 
    HowardAcheson | Aug 23, 2002 06:22pm | #15

    Green scotchbrite is too course. It's equivilent to abuot 00 steel wool. It will agressively abrade the surface. If you can't find the gray, use the 0000 steel wool.