Replies

1. 
   Alan | Jul 06, 2004 12:59am | #1

   Up,

   How big are these nicks and dings?  In large part their size will dictate which methods you might use.

   Have you tried water and an iron?  If not, and again depending on the size, that's what I would try first.  It might be possible to eliminate the defects without a filler of any kind.

   If that fails, you might try sanding dust and shellac.  That makes a very good filler, but it has to be used in tandem with your stain or dye and the finish.

   There is also the option of waiting until the table is finished and then using burn-in sticks.  It's easy to match color and grain with some practice.

   There are also a legion of commercial products which might help.  Again, it depends on how big the dings and dents are and your expectations.

   I've left out more than I've included.  A better idea of the things you need to remedy and what you want to accomplish would help narrow the options.

   Alan

2. 
   CharlieP | Jul 06, 2004 02:48am | #2

   I second the comment that the best solution is to soak the wood, then steam it.  I have raised some monumental dings that way.  (My worst case was dropping a dresser drawer as I was finishing it.  The corner was crushed.  I visualized trying to match the wood and rebuild the drawer (ugh).  Some water and a steam iron raised it so that it isn't visible to the casual observer, and can only be found on close examination. 

   I would avoid any color matching tricks.  Cherry changes over time, and filler does not.  In general I now try to avoid any artificial color on cherry - it just leads to problems down the road - the underlying color will still change, so it will be impossible to match in the future. 

   ________________________
   Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texas
   http://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   JohnK101 | Jul 06, 2004 09:53pm | #3

   Yes, be careful with any "fillers". I built some cherry cabinets, filled a few dings with filler that matched perfect at the time. Over time the cherry has darkened, making the repair spots stand out. Live and learn...

   I am guessing the sawdust and a binder, either glue or topcoat material or shellac as mentioned above works, but have not tried it myself. But I think it is the best option.

   John

3. 
   Alan | Jul 07, 2004 12:47am | #4

   Up,

   Ooops.  Your table being made of cherry skipped right by me.  The others are quite right:  it will be very difficult to repair so it will remain undetectable as it ages.

   I would definitely try to steam out the dents and dings before I tried anything else.  I would try steaming several times if it looked like it would do some good.  Steaming doesn't usually work on cracks and the like though.

   If steaming failed, my next choice would be sanding dust and a binder, such as shellac.  That might well darken right along with the rest of the table, or at least enough to hide the repairs.

   Depending on how big the defects are (I got your e-mail; see * below) my next choice would be touch-up crayon.  It's pretty easy to match both color and grain; you then level it with an old credit card, give it a shot of spray lacquer, and rub it out to match the sheen.  When the table darkens you can easily remove the crayon with some naphtha, then you can easily put on darker colors.

   Again, without seeing the defects it's hard to give specific advice, but perhaps grain filler would work.  Filler won't do much good on dings and dents, but it's made to fill small cracks and pores.  I would tint it a step or two darker than a good match right now, and then be done with it; as the rest darkens the filler would still match color-wise, and might look like light-colored grain.

   Shellac sticks--or burn in sticks--would also work.  You can use them just about anytime in the finishing steps, and they are harder and more durable than crayons or filler--but they are also harder to remove.  But you can modify the color or darkness by removing whatever is on top and then use dye or those finish-colored felt-tip touch-up pens.

   Whew!  That's all I can think of right now.  Yet another senior moment.  Where's that smoke coming from?

   Alan

   *I twice tried to respond to your email but got an "error:  undeliverable" message both times.  Did I get an expired address or...?

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/6/2004 6:35 pm ET by Alan

1. 
   CharlieP | Jul 08, 2004 06:32am | #5

   I also tried repeatedly to respond to your email, and the mail was rejected.  In the spirit of a forum being of value to all the participants, not just the one asking the question, I will take the liberty of restating your question and the response I tried to send.

   You said:

   The nicks and dings I'm dealing with are actually some small knotholes andsome tearout from the planer.   I'm not sure the water/iron would help on these defects.What's your opinion on burn in sticks?

   To which I tried to reply...

   You are right - steaming won't solve that one.I don't use burn in sticks.  For example, when I moved into my current house, I carefully examined the cabinets (then about 4 years old), and found a lot of sins well hidden by burn in sticks, but it took extremely close examination to find them.  Today they stand out like a sore thumb, because the cabinets have aged (not sure whether it is the wood or the finish that is darker, but the cabinets overall are now much darker than the burn-in sticks).  Bottom line, I don't like them.When I fill other woods, I use sanding dust mixed with the sanding sealer (or the final finish) - I started using shellac as recommended, but have also used lacquer.  It works better than most fillers for walnut, but I haven't tried it with cherry.  Since it is the same material as the table top, I think it has a better chance of aging with the wood than a different material, but the texture, cell structure, etc. are all different.  I love cherry furniture but the way the color "matures" creates lots of odd challenges.

   Sorry that the email didn't make it as you requested.  Good luck with your project.  Let all of us know how it works out.  ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   Fingercuts | Jul 08, 2004 04:46pm | #6

   Charlie: (and anyone else wanting to add)

   I'm one of many novice, hobbyist woodworkers who lurk on this forum.  Forgive me if this question is too basic.

   What is a burn-in-stick and how are they used?

   Thanks and take care,

   Greg

1. 
   Alan | Jul 09, 2004 12:13am | #9

   Greg,

   Burn in sticks are about the size of a pencil, square or round, that are made from colored shellac (or they used to be shellac; they may be made of some more exotic substance these days).

   They are used in tandem with a small soldering iron, or equivalent (the people who sell the sticks will happily sell you an electric iron too).  You melt the stick into the defect, level it, and then shoot a bit of the finish over it.

   They're available in a rainbow of woodsy colors.  With some practice it's pretty easy to match colors to the wood.  Using a small metal spatula heated in an Etna's flame, you can mix colors right on the wood and even simulate grain.

   IMHO burn in sticks are one of the best touch-up products.  They are very durable (which might be a bad characteristic in this application) and easy to apply--once you get the hang of it.  Once leveled and top-coated they are very hard to spot--as one of the posts above said.

   As I said above, and Jon agreed, for this application it would probably be best to put on a shade or several darker than the wood now.  With luck, as the cherry darkens with age the dark burn-ins will match.

   Alan

   Edited 7/8/2004 5:45 pm ET by Alan

1. 
   Fingercuts | Jul 09, 2004 07:16am | #10

   Thanks Alan.

2. 
   nikkiwood | Jul 10, 2004 05:25am | #11

   Charlie,

   Re: filler made from wood dust and sanding sealer or lacquer.

   Have you used this concoction to fill nail holes? Does it do a better job of moving with the surrounding wood than proprietary wood fillers ( which ultimately "blow out")?

   Thanks.

1. 
   CharlieP | Jul 10, 2004 07:23pm | #12

   No, I have not used it for nail holes (the only place I use nails on furniture is to hold glue blocks in hidden places, while the glue dries).  But that won't keep me from rambling on. 

   Keep in mind that the goal is to get wood in the hole.  If the hole is large (like a nail hole), I would use sawdust rather than sanding dust.  If the gap/hole is small, the sawdust may not fit, which is why I collect sanding dust in various wood species.  Shellac is pretty good at holding this in place, and is compatible with most finish.  Be sure to use as much wood as possible - you don't want to just have a glob of dry shellac in the hole.  If the shellac is thin, then the filler will shrink as the alcohol evaporates. 

   When I have used commercial wood fillers, there seem to be two differences (which may be why we have both had problems).  First, the actual filler doesn't seem to be a matching wood, but some composite that tries to become a porous structure, not unlike end-grain wood (but it doesn't finish like wood).  Second, there is a lot of solvent to give it long shelf life (which causes it to shrink and become loose as the solvent evaporates).  I suspect that it is the shrinkage that makes it ultimately come loose.

   Which is why I have had better luck with a very thick paste of wood and finish, that has a "shelf life" measured in seconds.   ________________________Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   nikkiwood | Jul 10, 2004 09:15pm | #13

   Charlie,

   Thanks for your reply.

   I am occasionally asked to make and install casings to match existing stuff in an old house. If the finish will be varnish, which it usually is, I generally use the Color Putty brand of filler for nail holes. That's the standard practice, but I thought perhaps your suggestion of wood dust/ binder might be a more elegant solution, especially if the casing will be stained and/or varnished in place.

   I have given up on commercial wood fillers, since I have never found one that didn't move and blow-up (at least slightly).

   With painted woodwork, I have had some success with epoxy putty (like Abatron). Once the nail hole is filled, and the epoxy filler sanded smooth, it seems to stay in place better, since it tends to move with the wood.

4. 
   jonsherryl | Jul 08, 2004 05:44pm | #7

   Up, the responses you've gotten so far are from some of Knot's more exrerienced cabinetmakers and they've pretty well hammered the point that cherry is a difficult wood to color match when making repairs. Because it's patina process never stabilizes, even a perfect color match at the time of repair is destined to become too light as the wood ages. I think the better strategy is to simply not try to match the color, but intentionally go with a filler that is substantially darker than the wood's overall hue.

   The logic for this approach is that it is in keeping with the characteristics of cherry. Cherry is a gummy wood, and the tree itself "makes repairs" by depositing gum in damaged tissue and this gum typically turns a dark chocolate brown in color. True, you can't make the damage disappear...but at least you can make it appear to be a natural attribute of the character of the wood.

   This drifts off topic slightly, but in my experience it is aways preferable to err on the dark side (regardless of the species) when using a filler. It is less noticeable, on two counts: Due to the chemistry of wood gums and resins, the natural defects found in wood typically are darker than the background tissue...and secondly, surface damage in furniture tends to eventually accumulate grime that is dark in color (a sort of  "antique" character)...When an observer sees this in a piece in triggers less notice, because it is natural and expected. A repair that is lighter than the surrounding wood tissue triggers the opposite response. It demands that the mind seek a rational explanation for why the repair defies the natural order of things. We could get into why survival instinct causes the mind to work this way...but for woodworking purposes, it's just important to recognise that it does. 

5. 
   BenM | Jul 08, 2004 08:08pm | #8

   As everyone else already has said, cherry darkens with age so a perfect color match today will stand out tomorrow.  Maybe you can try the opposite approach; if you can't hide it, feature it.  If there are not too many dings drill them out and glue in a pin knot.  Or use the filler method but make it very dark so it looks like a small knot.

   If the dings are not too deep but there are a lot of them maybe you can send the top out to someone with a wide belt sander and run it through a few times.