Replies

1. 
   RMillard | May 31, 2004 02:31pm | #1

   Crotches are difficult to finish as you noted because the always appear darker. Oil is the best for showing off the depth of grain, but can be a disaster on crotch veneer. I've good luck the following methods, thinned down varnish to seal and "pop" the grain, Tried and True Danish oil ( which does not darken like boiled linseed oil) and shellac. Of these shellac is the most predictable. As for the filler if you apply it after the seal coat, it will have little or no effect on the overall color. Just keep the seal coat thin, so the filler will have something to "bite". If you tint your shellac, either spray it, or tint it very little and build the color with many padded on coats, as it is all too easy to get streaks of color that are difficult to fix. Also, your crotch veneer will eventually check and craze, no matter how you glued or finish it. On my work, I first treat the veneer with a wash of thinned down hide glue and flatten it, and then hammer veneer it. The hide glue wash is supposed to help control the checking/crazing, and it does, but it doesn?t stop it. I once made a federal card table with a sunburst crotch top, that started to craze before it was delivered.

   Rob Millard

1. 
   coolbreeze | May 31, 2004 04:51pm | #2

   Rob, thanks for your reply and tips.

   I have a professional finisher who proposes to finish the project using lacquer. He has supplied samples of his work using filler and a touch of red dye on the solid walnut. He has not done a sample on the crotch. I have very little "practice" sample of the crotch left and would want to use it only to test the finish that has a high probability of working. Do you have any advise on using lacquer?

   Fred

1. 
   RMillard | Jun 01, 2004 12:18pm | #3

   I'm sorry, but I've not used enough lacquer to say for sure how it would work. I have used padding lacquer with excellent results.

   Rob Millard

2. 
   jazzdogg | Jun 02, 2004 02:41am | #4

   Coolbreeze,

   In my experience, there's a readily observable difference between water-borne and nitrocellulose lacquers; the WB leaves walnut looking comparatively "cold" compared to the NC. Shellac and/or dyes underneath lacquer can help warm up the appearance somewhat, but neither looks as good to my eye as a sanded-in oil finish or rubbed-out varnish.

   Good luck with your project,-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

1. 
   coolbreeze | Jun 02, 2004 05:13am | #5

   Jazzdogg

   Thanks for your reply.

   If you get FWW, you will remember the 18th Century Pennsylvania Secretary featured by Lonnie Bird. That is the piece I built. It is in volume 154,55, & 56. The intricate gallery would seem very difficult to do using a rubbed finish or sanding in oil.

   I have been told that oil finishes have a short life before needing reworked. Also, I am not sure if oil will work on the crotchwood veneer without making it too dark. I may be wrong on all counts, and if so, let me know.

   Just a hour ago, a professional finisher, based only on my discription of the piece quoted me a price of $7,000 to do the job. I know it will cost me a lot, but that seems high to me. If it is the only way I have to get the quality job I am looking for, I sould seriously consider it over taking the chance of botching it by myself.

1. 
   jazzdogg | Jun 02, 2004 05:57am | #6

   Coolbreeze,

   I recall that piece - very well done, indeed.

   Bill Cox, the instructor who specializes in 18th century reproductions at Palomar College (San Marcos, CA), made a piece very similar to yours in mahogany a few years ago. Wish I had a photography to share with you.

   At any rate, Bill sanded in an oil finish on the entire exterior. The results were truly breathtaking - his piece positively glows.

   Having far less expertise and experience than Bill, I'm still confident the job can be done - and done exceedingly well - IF you have the time and inclination to tackle the job. From what I've seen, you definitely have abundant skills of the highest level.

   Good luck,-Jazzdogg-

   Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.

2. 
   coolbreeze | Jun 02, 2004 04:04pm | #7

   Jazzdogg, and R. Millard,

   Thanks for your replies. However, I am still left with some questions.

   1. If I put a light coat of thinned varnish to "pop" the color of the crotch veneer and then use a sanded in oil, would the sanding not cut into the thin coat of varnish on the crotch and thus darken it considerably?

   2. How can I get the red to the walnut by sanding in the oil?

   3. The proposed fee from the professional finisher of $7,000. Seems high to me. What do you think?

3. 
   RMillard | Jun 03, 2004 03:41am | #8

   Trying to sand the oil over the varnish will certainly cut through the varnish. The idea of sanding the oil in, is to create a wood paste to fill the grain. I've not done this, because I'm not at all impressed with oil finishes. They look great for a while but oxidize over time, taking on a dull appearance. For me oil is a vital component of finishing, but not a finish itself.

   You could get your red tint, by sealing the wood with shellac or varnish, then scuff sand and give it a glaze I do this to mahogany, using Minwax Red Mahogany. This is as about a fool proof a finishing technique there is, if you don't like just wipe it off. After the glaze has dried a day or so , apply several coats of shellac, or varnish. If you use varnish you may need to let the glaze dry longer, as it can " pull" the glaze.

   $7000.00 sounds outrageous to me. Were you sitting down, when he gave you that quote?

   Rob Millard

3. 
   hammer1 | Jun 04, 2004 08:20am | #12

   Laquer is a great finish. It is used widely by professional cabinet and furniture manufacturers. It drys quickly reducing dust, is very clear, chemically bonds with previous coats and has good durability, alcohol resistant. Laquer also takes a nice polish. Shellac and oils impart a more amber tone than laquer and many are not UV resistant leading to future yellowing and obscuring of the grain. Sanding sealers can be used as a first coat with laquer, helping to fill the open grain. I don't have any experience with a red toner on crotch walnut. Recently I have been leaving figured wood natural. Even though there is a sharp contrast in color between burls or crotch and plain lumber, the pieces mellow with a little age. Don't make a decision based on a small sample, go get some more crotch veneer. I can't tell you how many times I've seen customers disappointed and out some bucks by choosing paint, formica or stains from small chips. If you have put the time and effort into the piece don't drop the ball at this stage just to save a few dollars.

1. 
   coolbreeze | Jun 05, 2004 01:24am | #13

   Hammer,

   The piece of "practice"crotch veneer I have left is 3" X 35". Is that enough? All samples provided by the finisher was on flat walnut.  The secretary's gallery has serpentine drawers, dividers, valances, intricate millwork on the capitals along with small flutes in the pallisters. Also, the prospect box has a small door with a raised tombstone panel door. The baseboard in the gallery is milled to match the serpentine drawers.

   I am not trying to save money. I gave some serious thought about the finisher who quoted the 7 grand. Of course, I would expect a more reasonable quote after he actually saw the piece.

   It seems that the more I read the more uncetain I am about what to do. If not for the crotch veneer and the desire to tint the walnut red, I would buy some good spray equipment and finish with shellac.

   Thanks for your reply.

2. 
   Tao | Jun 03, 2004 04:08am | #9

   I made a fairly long response to your question titled "spray equipment".  If you are going to finish with padded on shellac, pumice rubbed in with shellac makes a nice grain filler.   If you end up lacquering, neutral paste grain filler would work fine.  Get the wood as close to the color as you can, but color adjustments can be made with a dye like TransTints (my favorite) in lacquer.  Also works fine in shellac.

   A "sanded in" "oil" finish gets awfully time consuming, and I don't think the look is appropriate for the style of the piece, but that's a personal choice.  Shellac has a beautiful look, and shouldn't darken the burl much, but it will saturate whatever color is there.  On most of the burl pieces I have worked on, the solid wood has been stained a bit to match the overall tone of the burl, but that is not always so.  Again, a matter of choice.

   Michael R.

1. 
   EdHarrow | Jun 03, 2004 05:17am | #10

   I've done a bit of "oil sanding" as suggested by the goddess of brightwork, Rebecca Wittman.  I thought it positively glorious (and the finish looked pretty good, too ;-) ).

   You echo my thoughts re the finisher's quote.  I got my plastic pig done for a whole lot less than that (tho that was a few years ago), and Mum just got her entire house and barn painted for something about that number.

1. 
   Shopmole | Jun 03, 2004 06:21pm | #11

   I'll do it for $3,500.00!! ;)