‘Morning.
I’m thinking of an A-frame design to hang swings on, and I’m wondering (in all of your humble opinions) what’s the best wood? I live in northern Virginia, mild winters, hot and very humid summers.
1. Ash, pine, poplar – cheap, needs more finish
2. Cypress – relatively cheap for an outdoor wood
3. Pressure treated pine
Is PT wood safe for a kid’s playground?
Thanks in advance!
-Mike
Replies
FWIW one of two premier makers of childrens' outdoor furniture uses white cedar, the other uses redwood. For my money I'd use the cedar, low maintenance, doesn't splinter, non-hazardous. Personally I'd NEVER use PT wood for a childs play set.
I didn't expect to find this discussion on a Woodworkers board.
...but since someone brought the subject up - where would you buy white cedar? One of the big home centers (would they even carry it?) or from another source?
I never tried, but I wouldn't expect to find white cedar at a home center. Try http://www.woodfinder.com to see if there's a source convenient for you. they list about 20 suppliers in several states.
Mike, you might want to visit some local sawmills. You have a very rich flora in your region of the country and some of the mills may have excellent species for sale at "mixed hardwood" prices. For outdoor use, you don't need stock that has been kiln dried to cabinet making standards. Among the good choices would be: white oak, black locust or honeylocust. Also, if you bulk up the stock dimensions to account for their relative softness, sassafras or catalpa would also be good choices.
If you just want to go to the local Big Box, probably the best price/value timber for the purpose would be ipe. It will be a little more costly than most of the naturally decay resistant softwoods or treated pine, but it is exceptionally strong and comparable to teak in terms of decay resistance. As was mentioned in an earlier post, I wouldn't use treated stock for play sets.
Personally though, I think cruising the local mills is your best option. You'll probably meet some nice people and discover sources for a whole host of woods you might want to try in future projects...and at very good prices.
Jon, Thanks. I'm on my way.
-LMN_Tree
Hi Imntree
With regards to pressure treated lumber for kid play equipment, I would not use it. PT wood is treated with three heavy metals - CCA; copper, cadnium, and arsenic. The thing with heavy metals is once you touch it, if you cannot wash it off, it will be absorbed into your body with no way to remove them. It seems that everyone focuses on the word arsenic as we know it is poison. All three are bad for you.
The best way to make up your mind wether you like the stuff or not is to read the safety warning for you to cut and put it together. It will say something like use gloves when handling, dust mask when cutting, wash well when finished. The funny thing is once you have finished the swing, there is no warnings. It would seem that somehow all the safety hazards must disappear with assembly. Besides, when was the last time you saw a child put something in thier mouth?
Peter
"CCA; copper, cadnium, and arsenic. The thing with heavy metals is once you touch it, if you cannot wash it off, it will be absorbed into your body with no way to remove them. It seems that everyone focuses on the word arsenic as we know it is poison. All three are bad for you.
The best way to make up your mind wether you like the stuff or not is to read the safety warning for you to cut and put it together. It will say something like use gloves when handling, dust mask when cutting, wash well when finished. The funny thing is once you have finished the swing, there is no warnings. It would seem that somehow all the safety hazards must disappear with assembly."
What a crock of mis-information. READ the MSDS for pressure treated lumber. First, CCA is copper, chromium, and arsenic. I love people who don't even get the component parts correct, and then go on to even further heights of "knowledge."
Guess what? You need copper AND chromium in your diet to be healthy so, intrinsically neither of these is poisonous to humans. In fact, if you take multiple vitamin supplements or mineral supplements you will find both of these in the supplements. Not to mention they are naturally occuring in many foods.
Strange there's no worry about water picking up copper when it's routed around your house in those nasty copper pipes, or food picking it up when it is cooked in those unsafe culinary high-end copper pots & pans. Yeah, and don't touch pennies either because the copper might "rub off" on you. Stay away from the bumper on your car - look out - it's chrome plated (well, except for you folks with those cars that have long chain molecule poly-wunder substitutes for a real bumper). Oh yeah, and stay away from stainless steel because the chrome, nickel, and vanadium in it might somehow become molecularly unbound and you'll absorb them. Personally, I can't seem to get enough vanadium these days.
Yes, in quantity arsenic is poisonous - but, it is found in a lot of municipal water supplies, and unless it is in fairly large quantities (much more than the WHO recommended level of <10 ppb - and I don't trust that level as accurate because your talking about a level promulgated by people who can't even deliver CLEAN water in their own countries to start out with.) In fact, the city where I live has levels of 13-40 ppb and has been so for centuries. The doctors will tell you that if those levels were really harmful, they would have regular, recurring, trackable, documented health problems that could be traced to arsenic - not happening - they can't find any health problems traceable to the "elevated" (according to WHO standards) arsenic levels.
In fact, we have high arsenic level hot springs that have been used as "health spas" for hundreds of years. People with arthritis swear that it helps, and they even drink the raw spring water - LOTS of arsenic, like over 200 ppb. They don't do it daily, but they're not dead from drinking it either - and it hasn't seemed to have affected their health in any demonstrable way. Anecdotal evidence for sure - but, it can't be ignored anymore than what was contained in the CCA "factoid" post.
None of the CCA components will rub off on your skin and be absorbed. This is just plain bad boogeyman, unsupported, trash-opinion masquerading as "facts." The CCA is bound to the cellulose molecules in the wood once it has dried. That is a fact. It will not "rub off" on your skin. The way CCA treated wood is harmful is by eating 1 oz per 10 lbs of body weight, (Yum, yum. "Why yes ma'am...I'll have me another 'helpin 'a that there treated wood.") - or by inhaling the dust from cut wood. OR, if the treated wood is still "wet" with the treating solution. You can get around this by using a sealer on the treated wood if you're still skeptical about it "rubbing off." There are special sealers for treated wood - really. If you look, you will find them. The CCA wood treatment is for insect damage, not really rot resistance. That's why you need a sealer even on treated wood.
Now, here's the really good part. Every wood-framed house in Hawaii is built using pressure treated wood because of the termite problems. You know, wet, tropical - perfect for wood munching insects. IF CCA wood was such a threat from touching it, you would expect a high incidence of heavy metal poisoning among long-time framers. Guess what? That hasn't happened. You have guys that handle the stuff all day long everyday. Yep, they wear dust masks, but they handle the wood without gloves - and, their health is "normal."
As I have said - read the MSDS for CCA wood - it has REAL information in it.
My other suggestion is to use whatever wood you want, and if you are worried about weather damage and not insect damage, then treat the wood with Smiths CPES (Clear Penetrating Epoxy Sealer), which is an epoxy based wood treatment compound that will penetrate and encapsulate the wood. Do this after staining (if you want a stained color). It is a wonderful sealer. Put two coats on. It can be left as-is or then covered with any other type of finish like paint or varnish, as it will act as a really sound sealer/base coat. Look at their website at: http://www.smithandcompany.org if you are interested.
1) CCA treated lumber is being voluntarily taken out of the residential market... arsenic leaching into groundwater is the concern... yes the treatment can leach from the wood. Further, this is not "metal" but salts of copper, chromium, and arsenic -- much different from the metals you have described. the reason that they are effective against rot and insects is that ions migrate from the coating to essentially kill the micororganisms and the arsenic poisons the insects.
2) if you use an epoxy sealer, make sure that you use a UV protectant top coat, epoxy is horrible outside and will quickly break down if not protected
1. I'd suggest you read the data on the Smith's CPES before you make pronouncements about it's UV resistance. It is NOT like a West, MAS, or System 3 epoxy encapsulation technique. UV resistance is not an issue with the CPES from any manufacturer's data or my experience. In fact, it was/has been used in Finland for years to treat road/bridge deck pavement surfaces to protect them from salt used for snow & ice removal. WITHOUT ANYTHING OVER IT TO PROTECT IT FROM UV. It is a clear protectorant in and of itself.
Also, standard epoxies (again West, etc.) CAN be made UV resistant with the correct additive. Please, don't believe me, go to either the West Systems or Jamestown Distributors website & see for yourself. I just use the stuff - OK? Your results may vary from mine - but, it works for me.
2. Actually, the insects are poisoned when they eat the wood. A test with CCA wood surrounding vegetable gardens (raised beds), allegedly showed a slightly elevated level of both chromium and copper in the fruits / vegetables. HOWEVER, further questioning of the entity conducting the "test" (I take little on face value) revealed that they could NOT attribute the raised levesl to the CCA treated lumber, as the soil used for the beds had slightly elevated metal levels (naturally occuring) which could also have accounted for the additional copper & chromium. Also, the only thing that really works is "double blind" testing where multiple soil types would be prepared and analyzed by an independent entity that would then provide it to the testing entity who would not know soil composition. Final analysis would then be provided by an independent testing lab. Of course, this is too much to ask of liberal arts major types who are more than willing to publish "scary data," but who aren't concerned with conducting accurate testing.
3. Since I have not seen the data wherein the chemicals "leach" from the wood, & contaminate ground water, could you direct me to the source of this information?
On the CCA subject: There we numerous studies done by folks contracted to OSHA. You can find a lot of information about it there. I think you'll be suprised. The way I read it, your thoughts about it are correct.
Edited 6/27/2002 5:48:26 PM ET by Bernie
According to the EPA, studies suggest that arsenic leaches from CCA lumber. Mind you, they only say "suggest". But on the other hand, the wood preservation industry has a voluntary recall of CCA treated lumber and will not manufacture it anymore for residential use after December 31, 2003. There are numerous documents at the epa web site including http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/citizens/cca_qa.htm They also recommend washing hands after touching CCA treated lumber prior to eating.
Thanks to all for your thoughtful and informative replies.
LMNTree
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