Replies

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 08, 2009 03:15pm | #1

   Hi Keith.

   I had a WoodRat for a number of years. It's an excellent machine. I recently replaced it with the Router Boss. It's even better. Neither are "kooky new machines" in fact the WoodRat has been around for a long time so it isn't new at all. The Router Boss was introduced last year but is a solid machine that is up to standards.

    

   What sort of production do you need to speed up?

   Edited to add, here are some photos.

   First dovetail joint with the Router Boss. I should have squared the end of the tail board but even so, the joint is tight with no gaps.

    

   View Image

   Set up to cut the dovetail pins. You can use absolutely any dovetail bit with either the Router Boss or the Rat.

   View Image

   The dovetail bit I used for the joint above. Isn't that a slender thing? 3/4" cutting depth, 3/8" diameter. No need to use those obese carbide dovetail cutters if you don't want to.

   View Image

    

   Dave

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   Edited 1/8/2009 8:52 am ET by DaveRichards

   
   

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   Edited 1/8/2009 8:54 am ET by DaveRichards

1. 
   keithflknr | Jan 10, 2009 06:39am | #10

   Hi Dave

   I have been forced into 3 kitchen cabinet jobs so i will be making a lot of door frames.I used Bridle joints on my cabinets and every one loved them (hence the being forced part).

   I'm thinking the boss is a little more refined version of the rat.With you buying a new boss and already having a rat tells me alot.If I'm going to spend that much money i don't mind spending the little extra for the better product.

   I do have one question though.The cabinets I'll be making for my sister has 3 large drawers with 3 1/2 inch frames.Can the boss cut deep enough to make bridle joints out of 3 1/2 inch stock?

   thanks

   Keith

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 03:16pm | #11

   Hi Keith, I suspect a 3-1/2" wide bridle joint would be a challenge for even a handheld router. Not so much for the router but the bit. I'm not sure I even have a bit that has 3'1/2" of cutting length. Assuming you do, you could probably do it with the Router Boss.

   I say 'probably' because the router base is separated from the work by two plates; the clear router plate and the aluminum base plate. This effectively reduces your plunge depth. Lewis had a longer version of the Eliminator Chuck made for the DW625 routers which negates that reduction though. If you don't use that router though you'd want to use one that is designed for "above the table" bit changes so that the plunge depth would be sufficient.

   The WoodRat has somewhat the same problem as far as reducing the plunging depth of the router due to the intervening plats. They are thinner than on the Router BOss but they are also more flex ible and the router's weight tends to make the plates sag as the router is brought forward. The thicker aluminum plate on the ROuter Boss doesn't sag.

   So, assuming you've covered the plunging end, you just need to come up with a long enough straight cutter to do the job.

   With two Precision Stops installed on the optional Aluminum Guide Rails, cutting bridle joints would be dead simple. Assuming you have the clearance below the machine to put the rails and stiles in vertically, you'd cut all the parts with the same setup.

   Out of curiosity, how have you been cutting these joints now?

    

2. 
   mwenz | Jan 10, 2009 05:55pm | #12

   You didn't mention the thickness of the stock nor the width of the bridle. While one can buy long milling bits, the main limitation on milling given depths in wood is the width of the cutter.

   Cut the bridle joints using a band saw and pare out the bridle. Use a mortise machine for the bridle and band saw for the tenon. Something other than a 'Rat or Boss. 

   Or redesign the joinery if insistent on using a 'Rat or the new Boss. While I own and use a 'Rat, there are physical limitations--and practical ones. 3 1/2" frames seem excessively wide. Certain of the design?

   Take care, Mike

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 06:41pm | #13

   Assuming the depth of cut isn't a problem, why not use the Rat or Boss to cut the bridle joints?

   Assuming 3/4" thick stock and a 1/4" tenon, clamp the mortise board vertically, mount a 1/4" spiral bit, position the router to cut  on the centerline. Set stops to allow the router to be moved forward and back 1/4". With router centered, cut the mortise. Swap to the tenon board, shove the router back to back stop, cut the back side of the tenon using a climb cut (no tearout at the shoulder), bring the router out to the front stop, crank the work in the opposite direction (climb cutting again), done.

1. 
   [email protected] | Jan 10, 2009 06:59pm | #14

   For doing a bridle joint on 1-1/2-inch stock I would use the woodrat.  But in this case of 3/4-in thick stock, and a 3-1/2-inch depth of cut I'm not sure you could. 

   The problem is the required depth of cut, and corresponding length of router bit required.  If you could get a 1/4-inch bit that long, it would deflect under the load caused by the side forces generated during the cut.  (Probably why they aren't made.) You might be able to slow down the feed rate enough to eliminate it, but you would probably start burning the wood at that slow of a speed. 

   In the 3-1/2-inch stock, I might cut the slot or mortise first, using two stacked crosscut blades on the table saw, (if I have that much depth of cut on the saw, I think it might only be 3-3/8-inch).  And, then cut the tennons to match using a full dado stack in multiple passes. 

    

    

   Edited 1/10/2009 11:04 am ET by Jigs-n-fixtures

2. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 07:02pm | #16

   Yes, I recognize the issues with a joint that large. It would certainly be problematic with a small diameter bit.

3. 
   mwenz | Jan 10, 2009 07:00pm | #15

   Dave,

   I've used a 'Rat to cut all manner of joints for years. Not the point. A 4 1/2" to 5" long 1/4" cutter, cutting 3 1/2" blind depth through a piece of stock is, though.

   I know I would not desire to expend the effort and time required to cut an *accurate* 3 1/2" deep 1/4" wide slot through the end of a stile, leaving only 1/4" width on either side. For one, I think it would be difficult in many species of wood to have an accurate slot--or rather, have accurately thicknessed sides to the slot--at that depth. The 1/4" bit is gonna flex and the 1/4" sides are gonna vibrate.

   The feed speed and cutting depth for each pass will need to diminish once deeper than about 2". For what? Being able to use a 'Rat on the project? Seems like a waste of time, effort and money to me. Just because it *might* be able to be done with the 'Rat or 'Rat-alike, doesn't mean it is a good use of the thing.

   These twin tenons on 2 1/2" stock were cut on the band saw and the center knocked out and the shoulders pared in less than a couple minutes each for 10 joints.

   View Image

   Just how long would one take on a 'Rat if it were 3 1/2" deep?

   Take care, Mike

4. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 07:14pm | #17

   Mike, I thought I pointed out the cutter issue in my response to the question. I'm not pushing the Rat or Boss over other methods for cutting the joint. He just asked if it could be done. He didn't ask if there is a different way.

   This is starting to remind me of the recent dovetail jig thread.

   My shop should be warm enough now so I'm off.

   Edited 1/10/2009 11:15 am ET by DaveRichards

5. 
   mwenz | Jan 10, 2009 09:12pm | #18

   Hi Dave,

   You wrote to me, though I was writing the OP...:

   Assuming the depth of cut isn't a problem, why not use the Rat or Boss to cut the bridle joints?

   Assuming 3/4" thick stock and a 1/4" tenon...SNIP of single pass technique...

   I don't think the above is an accurate description of how one would go about cutting this deep of joint on a 'Rat with a 1/4" cutter. I do not believe it a safe thing to do in a single pass. Nor do I think it would result in a quality joint at that length. Well, the tenon portion *might* be able to be done with a 1/2" milling bit at that length. Even then, I would be concerned with the tenon remaining true end to shoulder. But obviously the same bit couldn't be used for the bridle itself.

   The whole issue of a 3 1/2" deep bridle using a 1/4" bit on a 'Rat type machine would involve multiple passes once one gets below an 1" of depth in many hardwoods. Hard enough wood or wood prone to burning (like Cherry) and the feed rate would be an issue versus the strength and stability of the bit.

   And then added when I responded to you...

   Mike, I thought I pointed out the cutter issue in my response to the question. I'm not pushing the Rat or Boss over other methods for cutting the joint. He just asked if it could be done. He didn't ask if there is a different way.

   I didn't think you were pushing the 'Rat or Boss. Personally, I think most small commercial and hobbyists should seriously consider the things. And I answered the OP that it can be done with a long enough cutter.

   You are correct. The OP didn't ask for other methods. However, I think the issue is always best practices. Sometimes that means not forcing one machine to do a task even though it is technically possible. Same goes for hand work tools and practices. So I will always bring up alternatives if I believe something is unsafe or unsound.

   As far as using the 'Rat for this 3 1/2" deep bridle, even if it can be done safely and accurately, it will not be a very efficient method. And hey, at least I didn't tell the OP to consider hand cutting them <g>...

   This is starting to remind me of the recent dovetail jig thread.

   I don't know why. Not that I read that thread, but I am assuming there was some unfreindly back and forth between participants. I wasn't attacking you so I have no idea if and, if so, why you would take offense.

   Take care, Mike

6. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 09:26pm | #19

   No offense taken.

   I didn't say the mortise would be cut in a single pass. I honestly don't think you'd want or can cut a good mortise 3-1/2" deep with a router even if its not with the Rat or Boss. For a smaller joint, I don't see any problem.

   Seems we're both arguing the same side.

   Cheers,

   Dave

2. 
   mapleman | Jan 10, 2009 09:44pm | #20

   Dave,

   Nice bit. Can you tell us a little more about it? Where/how much/cutting angle?

   Thanks Dave.

   Lee

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 09:57pm | #21

   Lee,

   That little bit is an 8°, 3/8" diameter bit with a 3/4" cutting depth. It's $25 from The Craftsman Gallery. There are 8° dovetail bits from 3/16" diameter to 1/2" in 1/16" steps. Their cutting depth is always twice the diameter.

   Dave

   Edited 1/10/2009 1:58 pm ET by DaveRichards

1. 
   mapleman | Jan 10, 2009 11:20pm | #22

   Hey Dave,

   Thanks for the info! I'll be sure to check them out.

   Lee

2. 
   Lataxe | Jan 08, 2009 03:58pm | #2

   Keith,

   If you search Knots on "woodrat" you'll find many, many posts about the beast.  There are few posts on the routerboss as it's new to the market.

   Also, try this site:

   http://www.aldel.co.uk/

   Lataxe

1. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 09, 2009 08:14pm | #4

   Lataxe..

   Although you go off the deep end as I do on occasion I value your opinion. I may or NOT get either (depending on my property Tax Bill coming early this year. 1/2 payment and than they harass me again later in the year!

   I lean toward the Router Boss (USA ripp off of the original) but I have never been stuck in my ways except for MY Ladywife...  Died long ago but she is still my wife..

   Forgetting cost (Well almost forgetting costs) your opinions on the wood rat for 'common' jobs. OK, so I'd love to do a perfect fit three 'stick' mortise and tenon with perfect miters.. But.. Not what I usuall do!

   Dovetails NOT an issue! I have many power tools, hand saws and chisels that do that..

1. 
   Lataxe | Jan 09, 2009 09:25pm | #5

   Will,

   The joy (or bugbear, depends how you look at it) of the rat is that is not a fully-automatic jig. It's more a universal wood milling tool and needs a lot of user-acquired knowledge and skill to do it's thing. 

   So, to do those 3-tenon M&Ts you mention, one begins by attaching the workpiece to be tenoned vertically in the rat vice. The router has a straight or spiral bit in it of the required size to make both the tenons and the mortises.  The three tenons are made in the workpiece-end by doing climb cuts through the wood, thus avoiding breakout - safe because everything is strapped down.

   You can mark the wood where you want to cut the tenons; but it's easier to eschew marking-out and instead just make symmetrical tenons by flipping the workpiece in the rat's vise,  making two cuts, before moving the workpiece and repeating the procedure until one has three symmetrical tenons on the end.  If symmetry is not wanted, knife marks provide a visual aid to cutting off the right amounts.  The cuts are always clean, precise and square (or at exactly the angle you set for the workpiece by using angled wedges or skewing the router's direction of travel).

   The matching mortisers are cut by attaching the workpiece to be mortised to a mortise rail held in the rat's vises.  Again, flipping the workpiece will make symmetrical mortises; or you can cut to your marking-out if preferred. 

   Mortise ends are round, so a chisel must be used to square them; or to round the tenon ends.  (Galoots will be happy).  Or you could cut matching mortises in both workpieces and use loose tenons with rounded ends.

   ****

   All this is hard to explain in just words so you'll get it.  It needs pics of the rat doing it's thing, which is why it's worth downloading their (free) and extensive manual, should one be thinking of getting a rat.  (Does the RouterBoss have a similar free manual I wonder)?

   http://woodrat.com/downloads.html

   So, the rat will allow you to make very good complex joints (3-prong M&Ts as well as loads of others). It will make them precisely...... but there is a learning curve and one must acquire the associated skills.  These skills involve both mental processing (to figure out how to design the individual joint and set up the rat) but also manual skills (to guide the rat in the right way and ensure clean cuts, in the correct order, at the right place in the workpiece).

   Lataxe, who tends to make his joints with handtools these days, just for fun (it ain't coz it's better or quicker).

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 09, 2009 11:01pm | #6

   "(Does the RouterBoss have a similar free manual I wonder)?"

   One only needs to look at the website to know. ;)

   The procedure would be similar with the Router Boss but you could use the Router Boss Mortise Rail to hold the work both vertically and horizontally without resetting the machine.

   View Image

    

   View Image

   Even the miters could be cut using the Power Feed Work Holder.

   Edited 1/9/2009 3:01 pm ET by DaveRichards

   Edited 1/9/2009 3:02 pm ET by DaveRichards

1. 
   knuts | Jan 10, 2009 01:04am | #8

   Make time this weekend Dave, to check that machine out. I'm waiting for you and Adel to let me know if I still need to keep my rat!

   Joe

2. 
   daverichards | Jan 10, 2009 02:12am | #9

   I'll try Joe.

2. 
   [email protected] | Jan 09, 2009 11:11pm | #7

   There are several videos on youtube about the rat, posted by WoodratUK.  They will give you a good feel of the basic capabilities. 

   But it does just about any joint if you think about it for a while.  It does mitered dovetail joints.  Box joints, particularly for multiple boxes are a joy, because you can gang cut multiple parts at the same time. 

   I have a book that is a "Catalog of Japanese Joinery", that has roughly 100 complex joints in it.  So far I have figured out how to do about 30, of them just to see if I could. 

3. 
   [email protected] | Jan 09, 2009 06:16am | #3

   I have had a Woodrat for a number of years.  It is one of the better joint making machines around. 

   There are several good videos on YouTube.  And, if you have fast connection you can download their instructional DVD, and the users/owners manual for their website. 

4. 
   WillGeorge | Jan 13, 2009 05:15am | #23

   I stated that the Router Boss was a 'rip off' of the Wood Rat.. I was tactfully reminded that it was not..

   I tent to agree but then again NO hate here to either party.

   I will say I type as I think. Not how I was taught. I Majored in English.. BUT never spoke or wrote what I was 'supposed' to. I did it only to pass the grade! And I use punctuation as I wish!

1. 
   daverichards | Jan 13, 2009 02:26pm | #24

   I for one, sir, enjoy the way you write. Please continue.

   Cheers,

   Dave